David and Goliath: The Canadian Ecig Industry prepares to take on its enemies!

Discussion in 'Campaigning discussions' started by freakindahouse, Apr 10, 2012.

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  1. freakindahouse

    freakindahouse Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Gloucester
    As some of you may know, a group of Canadian vendors has joined forces to form ECTA – The Electronic Cigarette Trade Association of Canada. My consultancy firm, V K Consulting Ltd, which manages and operates ECITA (EU) Ltd has been invited to assist these Canadian vendors in establishing a similar set of legal standards, drawn from Canadian law.

    We hope to be able to bring our unique approach to bear in convincing Canada’s government that electronic cigarettes must remain freely available, providing the proper legal standards are in place. We have had some considerable success with our approach in some territories in Europe, including the UK, and with the European Commission directly.

    ECTA Canada now has its full Board of Directors in place. We are working with them on establishing the legal requirements for the Canadian industry, by referring to Canadian legal statutes in exactly the same way as we did for ECITA (EU) Ltd. In no sense are we trying to ‘make up’ a standard for the industry. We are simply trying to make it possible to make a persuasive case to government policy makers in Canada, by demonstrating that existing Canadian laws can be applied to the sale of electronic cigarettes to ensure the protection of public health and safety without the need for ecigs to be classified as a medicinal product, or a tobacco product – both of which would come with unnecessary and burdensome restrictions on the industry, and crucially, on Canadian citizens’ ability to freely purchase and use these products in Canada.

    The ECTA website is currently under construction, and as soon as it is possible for it to go live, I shall provide a link to it here.

    As soon as the first stage of the work is completed, we shall be in a position to offer membership of ECTA Canada to any and all Canadian vendors who want to join. We hope that you will understand why we would not want to offer it at this stage, when the preliminary work has yet to be completed. There is a huge amount of legal research to finish, and whilst we are making excellent progress with this, there is still a long way to go.

    Equally, with the political situation as it currently is in Canada, it would be foolish for us to publicise the names of the individual Directors, or their businesses at this time. However, as soon as it is possible to release this information, we shall be happy and proud to do so. We trust you will understand our decision on this.

    Our primary aims are:


    • to collate the various strands of regulatory law in Canada into a programme which will become the ECTA Industry Standard of Excellence, then ensure that ECTA members are adhering to this standard;
    • present our programme to the various enforcement agencies in Canada, to gain approval and recognition that this is the correct regulatory fit;
    • open up membership to the rest of the Canadian industry, and assist those vendors in achieving full legal compliance;
    • keep the industry safe, legal, and providing Canadian vapers with quality products they can trust.

    I look forward to helping your vendors help all of you. :)

    Happy vaping, one and all,

    Katherine
     
  2. SloHand

    SloHand Eh? Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
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    I had to be the thirteenth person to "like" this :)
     
  3. mopar

    mopar Forum Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Location:
    Toronto
    You are not representing "The Canadian Ecig Industry" you are a collection of unknown vendors that have quite publicly stated you are not interested in e-cig users opinions or any other vendors ideas or help either financially or otherwise. Do you know what speeds up huge amounts of legal research? Money. You "The Canadian Ecig Industry", despite me being a large part of it and everyone knowing my offer of support being turned down is one of the reasons the industry remains split. Me and my customers have no say or representation in this group in what "the Canadian Ecig Industry" is purposing or fighting for. You are only "Part of the Canadian Ecig Industry" and this is by your choice.
     
  4. Song

    Song Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Can u chill out mopar, talk about been paranoid. It's stated right on their post that membership will be open to and all members once they are done with the preliminary. If u haven't notice none of the new vendors are founding members or members, including us. The position was offered in October/November. No need to cry foul play just because u where to late for it. I'm sorry u can't buy yourself a founding member position at this point. When membership opens up to everyone n they still refuse u, then u might have more cause to call foul play.
     
  5. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    We thank you for your offer of the money, Mopar but in that regard all founding members have made a commitment to fund the start up costs of the organization. However you are welcome to send your financial support and or you suggestions, neither of which has ECTA received. They would both be more productive than constantly bashing an organization.

    When the general membership opens, you are welcome to apply as are all other vendors.

    The reason why you are not a founding member, is because we have already reached the limit of directors under the legislation that governs us. This is the same reason why Song for example isn't a founding member, nor all the other Canadian vendors that have expressed interest. Its how a corporate structure works, we cannot change that.

    Also as part of the corporate structure, future directors will be chosen from the membership, as any other corporation or even democracy operates. In the US there were the founding fathers. They founded the country, but they didn't rule it forever, only until the elections. But that doesn't mean you can come along and throwout the directors during their term, simply because you feel you should. You might as well ask for an extra seat to be added to the House of Commons mid term for you.

    I'm sorry to have to resort to posting this publicly, as it has been explained privately to you many times without any affect. If you care as much as you claim, why not help, rather than making absurd claims and bashing us every chance you get?

    The floor is open right here, right now, for any customer, vendor or even Health Canada to express their concerns in a productive manner. As are many other channels of communication such as Facebook and even email. We have been delighted at the amount of positive feedback and suggestions for the industry we have received, from vapor, customers, friends... everyone.
     
  6. mopar

    mopar Forum Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Location:
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    Oh I must have misunderstood and I await the opportunity to apply to join "the canadian ecig industry" if this unknown body allows :) and I'm sorry that your sorry. Also sorry that some how both of you took this as a personal attack. Muhaha facebook, and your touching kind words of wisdom. Thanks for reaching out guys but regardless ECTA is not "The Canadian Ecig Industry".
     
  7. Song

    Song Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    I guess u just don't like the ideal of vaping in Canada been a self regulating industry? I'm not taking it as a personal attack since I not belong in the ECTA anyways, but I to pretty sick of seeing u cry about them not letting u in over n over like a 5 year old kid thou. Ether support them or don't, that's completely up to u ,but don't try to blackmail them into giving u a founding member position since u weren't.
     
  8. X P3 Flight Engineer

    X P3 Flight Engineer Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Location:
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    Just my opinion.

    It sounds like a new 'country club' being formed and proposing their charter that can be used to exclude 'undesirables' while maintaining an 'open to everyone' facade for public viewing.

    This may be because it is still in the 'secret society' stages right now. I do not wish to incur the wrath of this new OPEC because I have seen how it upset the 'Wizard' got when Dorothy looked behind the curtain.

    I'm sure it will become more clear when the new 'Director' assigns us our new 'roles'.
     
  9. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    I think by now it is clear that nothing of the sort happened. I'm not sure how you can even post that after a very transparent explanation.

    For the benefit of the vaping community, I would ask if you are only looking to start trouble, making the same false and now tired accusations over and over, you move on, so the voices of those with an interest in the future of vaping can be heard. It simply isn't fair to those who just want to see vaping legalized under law in this country.

    I am excited with the progress we are making with Katherine, and everyone at ECTA looks forward to sharing it with everyone shortly. We will succeed just the way ECTA did in the UK.

    Lets talk about that, as that will effect every vaper in Canada.
     
  10. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    You are correct. ECTA is the Electronic Cigarette Trade Association... An association, not an industry.

    We are an association of vendors that have grouped together to pool our resources to establish the legality of vaping in Canada. Unlike an industry, we don't offer a product, but rather a grouping of resources to advance a cause.

    At present we are completing research on the law pertaining to vaping, and forming the ground work for an association we look forward to opening to all vendors.

    Hopefully that clears it up for you Mopar, and I look forward to working with you under this associate in the near future if you decide to join. If you can't wait, again, right here is an excellent forum for your thoughts on how we can advance the cause.
     
  11. X P3 Flight Engineer

    X P3 Flight Engineer Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Moncton, N.B. Canada
    Am I to believe that V K Consulting Ltd considers it good Public Relations policy, as it prepares to, "present our programme to the various enforcement agencies in Canada", to refer to them in a bold print headline as, "David and Goliath: The Canadian Ecig Industry prepares to take on its enemies! ?

    Or was this in reference to the ECF Registered Suppliers who were denied representation?

    Or the Canadian Consumers who will be denied representation even after the culmination of all this?

    In any event, isn't it a little adversarial to declare someone your enemy before you are ready to negotiate with them?
     
  12. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    We fully expect to negotiate. We certainly aren't going to be shooting a slingshot at HC ;)

    "We are simply trying to make it possible to make a persuasive case to government policy makers in Canada, by demonstrating that existing Canadian laws can be applied to the sale of electronic cigarettes to ensure the protection of public health and safety without the need for ecigs to be classified as a medicinal product, or a tobacco product – both of which would come with unnecessary and burdensome restrictions on the industry, and crucially, on Canadian citizens’ ability to freely purchase and use these products in Canada." - VK Consulting

    The "David and Goliath" is a reference to the size of the players. David being the smaller e-cigarette community of vapors and vendors, and Goliath is the large and very deep pocketed Canadian Government.

    ECTA is happy to represent everyone, all we need is your comments and suggestions. No one is left behind.

    What would you like to see done in regards to legislation Engineer?
     
  13. mopar

    mopar Forum Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Location:
    Toronto
    :facepalm:

    It's not a self regulated industry if all the players are not involved. If there is no transparency and all of the regulations are being created behind closed doors. It is a group of people trying to control something IMO which I am entitled to.

    "open up membership to the rest of the Canadian industry, and assist those vendors in achieving full legal compliance"

    Huh? all of the sudden a bunch of people without any of my input are going to tell me what is legal and not according to Canadian Law does this include ECTA enforced policies? What does this include? Certain products from approved vendors? Not crossing provincial lines? Not vaping while walking a duck backwards on new years day?

    Anyway the only thing I was trying to point out that this is NOT "The Canadian Ecig Industry" it is a group of unknown people trying to create rules regulations and guidelines that will affect me and my customers without our direct input. It has nothing to do with me wanting to sit at a table like a big shot with a bunch of people I don't like. Founding member position? After things are established will these be positions that are elected by ECTA members? Or like the Canadian Senate? Are there going to be fee's? Who establishes them? Who is a paid employee? Who does the hiring? Who does the enforcement?

    For such an important issue and cause and if it's really going to be done this way then it will need all of our support. I will not support something that I don't have a faint clue about or have any say in. This is not blackmail it is basic. In which case I am very happy to not to support ECTA. At the same time don't try to push it as "The Canadian Ecig Industry" because it is not and that is a lie. Push it as a group of vendors or a collection of vendors but don't try to whitewash it with such a blanket term leading people to believe everyone is on board a train to who knows where.
     
  14. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    What is your input in regards to regulations?

    What laws in your view are effecting us as vendors?

    How can we incorporate regulations into this industry, to achieve compliance?

    These are the questions we need your help to answer, so we can represent everyone effectively. We look forward to, no, need, your input on all levels.
     
  15. Can_supplier

    Can_supplier Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    Personally one of the biggest issues I see right now is the problem both vendor and vapers are having importing goods.

    What are the laws on this matter? Does HC have the right to deny entry of e-cigarettes, and if so under what law? If there isn’t a law, what powers under law do we have to stop this action?

    We aren’t even at the point of self regulation yet, we are at an identify and research stage. Much the same as we will need the cooperation of the entire industry if we hope to self regulate, we need everyone’s input to identify the root issues right now.
     
  16. freakindahouse

    freakindahouse Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Location:
    Gloucester
    The 'David and Goliath' reference in the heading is precisely as Can_supplier describes it: in the grand scheme of things, the Canadian ecig industry is small and weak compared to its many and varied enemies. These enemies potentially include Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, anti-smoking zealots, government bodies with hidden agendas (and often, not-so-hidden agendas), and, occasionally, sections of the ecig industry itself! Consider the utter stupidity of ecigs being marketed as an aid to dieting, or this egregious product:

    (Edited)

    This is the sort of thing that could wipe out the entire industry in one fell swoop, and there are few appropriate ways to address it.

    There is a great deal of work to be done. The founding group of ECTA has decided to take on that work. When it is able to, this will be shared publicly, and others will be invited to decide whether or not this is something they wish to support (and be supported by).

    To attack it before it goes public is ill-conceived and pointless. ECITA (EU) Ltd has had its fair share of pot shots taken, as have I personally. Frankly, my only concern is to continue to do what I do. I hold on to the knowledge that people don't attack you unless you are doing something, and I cannot sit idly by and allow ill-informed policy-makers to make the wrong decisions, especially when that might mean that millions of smokers might NOT have the option to switch to vaping.

    I am a tiny cog in the enormous wheel of global public advocacy for vaping. I developed the programme as one specific route worthy of pursuit. Many have chosen to follow this route, others have not.

    I make no apologies for it. I recognise it is not all-encompassing. It is simply one part of the overall fight for every citizen's right to have the freedom to choose to vape instead of smoking. So far, we have found my method to be effective, which is why we are continuing to pursue it. When the time comes, I would urge you all to judge it on its merits, rather than guessing what it might be, and trying to shoot it down beforehand.

    I do not cast myself in the role of 'David'; by whatever means - even if by simply continuing to trade in defiance of government restrictions - the ecig industry as a whole is taking on 'Goliath'. It is just that some of us are trying to take specific action to resolve the uncertainties the whole global industry is currently facing.

    I hope this clarifies the situation, and look forward to being able to provide more information for assessment by the wider vaping community in due course.

    Happy vaping, one and all - and long may it continue!

    Cheers,

    Katherine
     
  17. Cokeybill

    Cokeybill Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Location:
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    Katherine, I clicked the "(Edited)" link and I agree to this. A point that ECTA is trying to prefer that vendors do not try to make certain products look like an advertisement to an illegal drug. Somewhat that the "Goliath" can use as fodder for making ecigs look illegal in their charges toward ecigs. I agree that vendors at this point, should make everything look professional as possible in their own attempts to follow a specific way to provide a regulated manner of showing HC that in no way are they providing a "goofball" type of way to attract customers on their websites. Of course vendors will try to attract attention to their sales and web sites, but to a limited example that doesn't cross a line of causing a stir that may disrupt any intensions of resolutions between ECTA and HC. The first thing I thought of, is a vendor using a ridiculous name at "any cost" to attract customers.
     
  18. Slim Batz

    Slim Batz Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Jan 16, 2012
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Is this association putting any effort into issues surrounding the trade of e-liquid... more specifically nicotine e-liquid? Most of the discussion here centers around hardware it seems ... all well and good for vendors and consumers to be able to freely stock their shelves with gear but what are we going to vape with it? As a consumer, not a vendor, this is my primary concern. Any details on this front?
     
  19. Mindfield

    Mindfield Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Based on what little I do know, I am aware of at least one vendor who has had their nic E-liquid tested professionally by an independent lab, so I do know that E-liquid is a part of the effort.
     
  20. Slim Batz

    Slim Batz Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Thanks Eric ... I guess I am somewhat confused about the whole current landscape in regards to the nic e-liquid trade, and where it may be going without intervention, and where the ECTA wants to see it go. Nic E-liquid isn't sold by BM outlets, but its sold online, but JC got shut down, but other vendors continue to operate, but nicotine is a drug, but vendors are having it shipped in by the barrel ... etc. etc. etc. I'd really like it if the ECTA would post some detail regarding the current state of the e-liquid sub-industry in Canada ... how precarious is it?, what actions/agendas does the ECTA see various government agencies (HC, CC) persuing, and what actions the ECTA may be considering in response.
     
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