Decomposition of VG to acrolein

[kinabaloo]

I noticed in the reports a small trend to usb blowing attys more so that higher voltages but from battery; presumably because batteries kind-of current limit due to internal resistance. But hardly scientific. In any case, the higher voltage is not the cause of demise, rather the deposit - physically hindering expansion, wrenching a snap as it grows or heat-insulating the wire to over heat; probably all guilty.

No-deposit forming juices are a real possibility and could be made right now, jumping right over the cleaning issue; attys might then last months on average (if still working after the first few days/week).

I'm not sure how easy it would be to include nicotine though so that there is no deposit, the kind used in inhalers I guess, certainly not from a tobacco soak that would be full of resins etc.; but not sure if this is simply pure nicotine dissolved in water or other solvent, or a bound-nicotine where the binder might not evaporate.

 

[surbitonPete]

No-deposit forming juices are a real possibility and could be made right now, jumping right over the cleabing issue; attys might then last months on average (if still working after the first few days/week).

That seems to me the best way to go.....it would solve the problems across the board. Trouble is I want some now ....today.....lol.

 

[exogenesis]

Letzin is really beginning to piss me off,
stop arguing about it as if you know something nobody else does,
find out the f'ing facts
Read the report properly, ask them to clarify the 'smoked' GC anomolies.

(& why the removed links ?)

Apart from that, PG still has no deposit at all.

Good night all, too many beers.

 

[Kate]

Just ignore him Exo, he's an Intellicig fanboy. He's had a few digs at me for not thinking what I'm supposed to.

 

[surbitonPete]

Letzin is really beginning to piss me off,
stop arguing about it as if you know something nobody else does,
find out the f'ing facts
Read the report properly, ask them to clarify the 'smoked' GC anomolies.

(& why the removed links ?)

Apart from that, PG still has no deposit at all.

Good night all, too many beers.

Wow Exo 8-o... you need to get rid of the fish and put the scary face back up for a post like that.... lol but I know how you feel.....one or two technical reports might be a help but they prove nothing about the real world of vaping.

 

[Nuck]

Wow Exo 8-o... you need to get rid of the fish and put the scary face back up for a post like that.... lol but I know how you feel.....one or two technical reports might be a help but they prove nothing about the real world of vaping.

I like the guy. I understand there are differences of opinion but it doesn't need to be made personal.

Outside of that, I disagree with you about the reports. The reports are by far the best evidence we have of the level of safety with regard to vaping. Forum science is a nice distraction but will never have the weight of a real lab running tests by qualified technicians.

 

[Kate]

I like the guy. I understand there are differences of opinion but it doesn't need to be made personal...

Did you just contradict yourself there Nuck by saying something personal and then saying you didn't need to?

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm just sipping away at my shiraz-cabernet-merlot, with a hint of acrolein; maybe I'm addicted to the stuff !

wine acrolein - Google Search

 

[Nuck]

Did you just contradict yourself there Nuck by saying something personal and then saying you didn't need to?

I like the guy in a purely objective scientific way!

 

[Kate]

I like the guy in a purely objective scientific way!

Ha, I think you should join the gay group in that case

 

[surbitonPete]

I am afraid one or two lab tests aren't enough to prove that under all vaping circumstances there is no acrolyn produced.....people are using higher voltage batteries...changing temperatures ....there are so many variables....to decide that a couple of reports makes you certain that there is no chance of acrolyn being produced (because the reports were done by cleverer people than us) seems a bit naive to me. Still no one is saying it's at a dangerous level...we wouldn't be vaping it if we believed that.

 

[Kate]

While we're talking about that test, did anyone make out what it was that they tested? It says something at the beginning about cartridges and three ingredients but isn't clear if it was the eliquid they're linking the report to that the lab looked at. Do Intellicig sell cartridges loaded with their brand eliquid?

 

[Nuck]

I am afraid one or two lab tests aren't enough to prove that under all vaping circumstances there is no acrolyn produced.....people are using higher voltage batteries...changing temperatures ....there are so many variables....to decide that a couple of reports makes you certain that there is no chance of acrolyn being produced (because the reports were done by cleverer people than us) seems a bit naive to me. Still no one is saying it's at a dangerous level...we wouldn't be vaping it if we believed that.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying its absolute proof, just that it's the best we have, and it's not just that the people at a lab are qualified, it is the type and quality of the tests they are able to perform that gives them an insurmountable advantage over any tests we could do for ourselves.

The higher voltages and altered conditions do make a difference and all we know is that under the conditions the lab used there was no acrolein produced. More tests with varied conditions will have to take place but it is a very good start and bodes well.

 

[surbitonPete]

While we're talking about that test, did anyone make out what it was that they tested? It says something at the beginning about cartridges and three ingredients but isn't clear if it was the eliquid they're linking the report to that the lab looked at. Do Intellicig sell cartridges loaded with their brand eliquid?

I think the report was done with cartridges loaded with ecopure..but I don't know if Intelicig actually sell pre loaded carts with it in now.

 

[Nuck]

While we're talking about that test, did anyone make out what it was that they tested? It says something at the beginning about cartridges and three ingredients but isn't clear if it was the eliquid they're linking the report to that the lab looked at. Do Intellicig sell cartridges loaded with their brand eliquid?

Based on the ingredients it appears it was the Ecopure fresh that was used for testing.

 

[Kate]

Here's the report for anyone interested in what we're talking about - http://www.intellicig.com/images/pdf/ECOpureReport2009-04-14.pdf

 

[surbitonPete]

Well Nuck I think the reports are a great start .......but all we are basically doing is discussing some valid doubts that it still isn't enough to discount the possibility of any acrolyn and then people are jumping in almost telling us we shouldn't even be talking about it. Of course we don't have any way of proving anything... as you say we don't have the expertise or the equipment to make any valid tests of our own.

 

[kinabaloo]

If that report does say zero acrolein, I can't see it.

What it does say about the smoked results: "No clear peaks were recorded at all but inference of spectra suggests the presence of glycerol and nicotine." So I wouldn't put too much faith in what it shows.

The beauty of the test I devised with only VG and distilled water, compared with only PG and distilled water, and carried out by Exogenesis using an automatic vaping system he devised using a real atomizer, is that it shows, without elaborate equipment, that something is going on with VG that leads to a deposit. One might expect the VG to simply evaporate, as does PG. But the science tells us that when heated to boiling point, VG begins to decompose to acrolein and water. The amount of VG decomposed was estimated at under 0.1%, if I remember correctly. And only some of that will leave the atomizer in the vapor, the rest reacting and decomposing further on the heated coil to form the deposit.

 

[surbitonPete]

One thing is certain to me Kinaba there is a lot more going on in these atomizers at variose stages of vaping ....otherwise there wouldn't be so many changes in the vaping taste. To me you must be vaping something else when it sometimes tastes like chip fat.

 

[Nuck]

"In addition to these materials, an example of cigarette smoke from the cigarette was subjected to LCMS, GCMS, and NMR to test for the possibility of acrolein structures which as of the time of writing we are pleased to report have not been identified."

I took this to mean that they have not detected any acrolein with any of the tests.

I have never found 100% pure VG (I currently use 99.5% pure but I know the purity varies). There is also the issue of whether or not the Glycerin tested is coconut (or some other veg based), animal based or oil based. While not all Glycerin is VG, it appears to be common on the forums to call it VG. Any of these could account for residue rather than any breakdown results in the creation of acrolein.

The only way to solve the issue to run tests with the proper equipment.

Since PEG is only used by one supplier that I'm aware of (assuming it really is safe) the majority of people will use either VG or PG. Given the list of concerns with PG are quite long, I worry that people will be pushed away from VG based solely on what is nothing more than conjecture at this point.