Deeming Regulations Are In Effect

[jamesbeat]

In doing some research I honestly do not think these FDA regs will stand in a court of law. There are numerous lawsuits challenging these regulations. In looking at how the courts have ruled concerning other cases brought forth against the FDA for other overreaching regulations, I just can't see this happening. The courts have ruled against the FDA more times than not. And what they are attempting to do now with the vaping industry is so much more absurd than the other cases it's lost in court.


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Because of other interests of mine, I have witnessed plenty of lawsuits that turned out badly despite going against the constitution, and vaping isn't even a constitutionally protected right.
You'd be surprised what absurd arguments are accepted in a court case when the government wants something badly enough.
There is corruption in the court system just as much as in the government.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I do think it's important to not allow complacency.
Logic does not always prevail, especially when 'But think of the children!' is invoked.

 

[Falco78]

Because of other interests of mine, I have witnessed plenty of lawsuits that turned out badly despite going against the constitution, and vaping isn't even a constitutionally protected right.
You'd be surprised what absurd arguments are accepted in a court case when the government wants something badly enough.
There is corruption in the court system just as much as in the government.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I do think it's important to not allow complacency.
Logic does not always prevail, especially when 'But think of the children!' is invoked.

I hate to say it but you're right this is the time to stock pile or be limited greatly in the future

sent from my Galaxy Note 4 using MOAR 2.1b ROM running tapatalk

 

[Bad Ninja]

Because of other interests of mine, I have witnessed plenty of lawsuits that turned out badly despite going against the constitution, and vaping isn't even a constitutionally protected right.
You'd be surprised what absurd arguments are accepted in a court case when the government wants something badly enough.
There is corruption in the court system just as much as in the government.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I do think it's important to not allow complacency.
Logic does not always prevail, especially when 'But think of the children!' is invoked.

Actually, the FDA has a strong and long record of losing in court when they attempt to overreach.
Federal courts aren't swayed by "the children" like the public is.
Case law and precedent will decide the outcome.

 

[jamesbeat]

Actually, the FDA has a strong and long record of losing in court when they attempt to overreach.
Federal courts aren't swayed by "the children" like the public is.
Case law and precedent will decide the outcome.

I'll just preface this by saying that I have a life long interest in firearms, and I have followed Second Amendment cases with keen interest for many years.

What I have seen in this narrow field does not reflect what you state about how the courts operate.
I have seen Mother Jones magazine articles submitted (and accepted) and quoted as fact.
I have seen certain guns banned for cosmetic features because despite the fact that it would actually not make anybody safer, (acknowledged by the court) it would make people 'feel safer'.

I have seen the most absurd arguments taken seriously, and scrutiny ignored.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I dearly hope you are right) but it is not what I have witnessed so far.
The courts seem quite happy to go along with whatever moral panic happens to be in fashion.
.
And yes, 'for the children' is not only used frequently, it is often the main argument.

There are many parallels between the gun rights argument and the vaping argument, and I can see the same old lies and dirty tactics at play here.
It's just moral panic, made-up statistics and greed.
The only real difference is the greed part. There is far more money at stake for the government and special interests when it comes to vaping.
That is the factor that causes me the most concern.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I'll just preface this by saying that I have a life long interest in firearms, and I have followed Second Amendment cases with keen interest for many years.

What I have seen in this narrow field does not reflect what you state about how the courts operate.
I have seen Mother Jones magazine articles submitted (and accepted) and quoted as fact.
I have seen certain guns banned for cosmetic features because despite the fact that it would actually not make anybody safer, (acknowledged by the court) it would make people 'feel safer'.

I have seen the most absurd arguments taken seriously, and scrutiny ignored.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I dearly hope you are right) but it is not what I have witnessed so far.
The courts seem quite happy to go along with whatever moral panic happens to be in fashion.
.
And yes, 'for the children' is not only used frequently, it is often the main argument.

There are many parallels between the gun rights argument and the vaping argument, and I can see the same old lies and dirty tactics at play here.
It's just moral panic, made-up statistics and greed.
The only real difference is the greed part. There is far more money at stake for the government and special interests when it comes to vaping.
That is the factor that causes me the most concern.

2nd A has nothing to with vaping outside of my gun/mod pics.

(I live in Cali, worst gun laws in the US, but thats a totally different ball of wax, with a much different agenda).
No misdirection please.
Stay on topic.

The regulations put forth by the FDA wont stand up in court.
The FDA knows it.
They are throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks, which is exactly their past MO.
It usually fails when challenged.

Beyond that, the FDA regs are unenforceable.

The rest of the world still vapes on.

 

[jamesbeat]

No misdirection intended, just drawing a parallel with other court cases that I have taken an interest in.

I sincerely hope you're right, but unfortunately I've seen all too many occasions when arguments that 'couldn't possibly stand up in court' have indeed stood up in court.

As I said, I really do hope you are right, and I admire your faith in the legal system to get it right.

I'm afraid I am more cynical though, and I'm glad I stocked up on vaping supplies.
Stocking up changes your status from 'potential victim' to 'outraged bystander'.
I still care a great deal about this, but it no longer affects me directly.

 

[Bad Ninja]

No misdirection intended, just drawing a parallel with other court cases that I have taken an interest in.

I sincerely hope you're right, but unfortunately I've seen all too many occasions when arguments that 'couldn't possibly stand up in court' have indeed stood up in court.

As I said, I really do hope you are right, and I admire your faith in the legal system to get it right.

I'm afraid I am more cynical though, and I'm glad I stocked up on vaping supplies.
Stocking up changes your status from 'potential victim' to 'outraged bystander'.
I still care a great deal about this, but it no longer affects me directly.

Lol
I've been beyond "well stocked" for a very long time.
Not just vape gear.



The regs are unenforceable and excessive.
They can fail in court or fail in practice, the end result is that we still will vape.


Let me point something out:
The FDA wants to hand vaping to Big Tobacco, not stop it.
If they wanted to stop it, they would simply lock down sales of nic base without an FDA lisc.
Bam. Game over.
However, they chose to legislate control over a masive new profit stream.

They are trying to steal the industry and hand it over to BT.

 

[jamesbeat]

I agree that is clearly the motive, but with respect, what makes you think the courts won't go along with it?

All of the evidence appears to show that the 'conspiracy theorists' are absolutely right about the corruption surrounding vaping.
Why would that corruption stop at the courts?

My hunch is that it will get kicked up to SCOTUS and then be denied cert.

I won't be at all surprised is this turns out badly for vapers, but I will be delighted if I turn out to be wrong on this one.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I agree that is clearly the motive, but with respect, what makes you think the courts won't go along with it?

All of the evidence appears to show that the 'conspiracy theorists' are absolutely right about the corruption surrounding vaping.
Why would that corruption stop at the courts?

My hunch is that it will get kicked up to SCOTUS and then be denied cert.

I won't be at all surprised is this turns out badly for vapers, but I will be delighted if I turn out to be wrong on this one.

No, I dont "blanket judge" all courts and judges to be corrupt, nor am I naive enough to think them all honest.
That would just be foolish, which I am not.
I dont have much faith in the court system, but I do have faith in the greed and vanity of attorneys that already see this as the career making argument that it is.

All laws and regs mean zilch until they are tested in a court of law, and you can bet your last buck it will be tested.

 

[jamesbeat]

I think we can agree on greed being the motivation. I just hope the FDA's greed doesn't win out.

It's certainly true that if a lawyer somehow defeats the FDA, it would make their career.

 

[Chodi]

I live in Asia and in my country vaping has been outlawed for two years. Most of Asia has banned vaping with the exception of China. It is all about economics. In my country vaping has gone underground and still thrives although public vaping is subject to arrest and stiff penalties ( including jail time). I see the same economics controlling the same result everywhere until governments and BT decide how to make money and profit from vapors.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I think we can agree on greed being the motivation. I just hope the FDA's greed doesn't win out.

It's certainly true that if a lawyer somehow defeats the FDA, it would make their career.

Somehow defeats the FDA?
Not familiar with the FDAs history in court are you?
FDA Doesn't Hold Up in Court, Shaking Agency's Credibility
The FDA loses far more often than not when they get to the courtroom.

I live in Asia and in my country vaping has been outlawed for two years. Most of Asia has banned vaping with the exception of China. It is all about economics. In my country vaping has gone underground and still thrives although public vaping is subject to arrest and stiff penalties ( including jail time). I see the same economics controlling the same result everywhere until governments and BT decide how to make money and profit from vapors.

There will be no US ban on vaping or jailing of vapers.
We dont do that here.
BT already makes a ton of unregulated profit off the industry (our nic doesnt come from eggplants). They want more.
They want that sweet sweet retail profit stream.

 

[mikepetro]

There actually were a few people here who Knew the sky wasn't going to fall on Aug 9. Ridicule was heaped upon them by the hand wringers.

Who's the eedeeits now?

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

I never called anyone an idiot.
I simply called it "Insurance", and I chose to get mine.
I do not regret it one bit, my .... is covered for life, regardless of what regulations get enacted or enforced.......

 

[jamesbeat]

I never called anyone an idiot.
I simply called it "Insurance", and I chose to get mine.
I do not regret it one bit, my .... is covered for life, regardless of what regulations get enacted or enforced.......

Same here.
I also have the luxury of not being anxious about the fda ruling (at least from a rather selfish point of view).
There's still a very good chance sky will fall soon, and it's nice to know that it can't affect me.

I'd just like to point out that nobody KNEW the sky would not fall in August, they just believed it wouldn't.
It could very well have turned out differently, and I don't think that preparing for this possibility constitutes 'hand wringing'.

Spending a pretty trivial (compared to the price of cigarettes) amount of money - in my case $244 - as insurance was still smart.
Smarter still considering that I never have to spend anything ever again on vaping if I so choose.

I'll be delighted if I can treat myself to new and exciting devices in the future, but I won't ever actually need to.

Whatever the outcome of this fda nonsense, it still makes sense to stock up now if you haven't already.
Vaping may survive this, but it will never be as cheap or easy as it is now.

 

[beckdg]

I hate to say it but you're right this is the time to stock pile or be limited greatly in the future

sent from my Galaxy Note 4 using MOAR 2.1b ROM running tapatalk

Somehow I think his use of complacency mirrors mine as opposed to unwillingness to stockpile.

There are plenty here who stockpile because they're complacent.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Actually, the FDA has a strong and long record of losing in court when they attempt to overreach.
Federal courts aren't swayed by "the children" like the public is.
Case law and precedent will decide the outcome.

Hopefully...

Tapatyped

 

[Falco78]

Somehow I think his use of complacency mirrors mine as opposed to unwillingness to stockpile.

There are plenty here who stockpile because they're complacent.

Tapatyped

While I do understand that thought process for me I am just choosing to be well prepared rather than regret it later

sent from my Galaxy Note 4 using MOAR 2.1b ROM running tapatalk

 

[r77r7r]

I didn't stockpile. I want the adrenaline rush of surfing the Dark Web with the newcomers.

 

[ChelsB]

Can someone help me understand the exact date we have for stocking up? I'm not clear, even from reading some of the stuff on casaa. What's the worse case scenario with respect to dates....how long do I have to stockpile?

 

[Lessifer]

Can someone help me understand the exact date we have for stocking up? I'm not clear, even from reading some of the stuff on casaa. What's the worse case scenario with respect to dates....how long do I have to stockpile?

Worst case scenario would be any day now. The way the regulations and the timeline have been structured it's a slow death, 8/2018 being the date of final execution, as it were. However, at any time the FDA could decide to more fully and forcefully impose their restrictions. In addition to that are the many state and local laws that will go into effect/be voted on. Then there are the side attacks, like credit card processors charging higher fees, or refusing to handle vape purchases outright.

It may all go away, we might win. Stocking up is something that is relatively cheap and easy, and if it turns out to not be necessary, you'll likely use whatever you bought anyway.