Deeming Regulations Are In Effect

[Bob Chill]

The one thing that is a net positive with age restrictions on certain things is that there are consequences when you get caught. Getting yelled at by mom and dad for stealing beer (not that this ever happened to me...lol) and getting caught in a parking lot by a cop and subsequent court date are 2 entirely different things.

Alcohol + teenagers has resulted in a lot of dumb things happening. And the not so funny loss of life happens all year long. Yes, the age restrictions don't prevent access all that well but they do instill consequences and teach important life lessons.

OTOH- cigarettes and tobacco only hurts the user. I'm not sold on age restrictions doing anything to teach lessons. The consequences only show up waaaay down the road when a user's health is failing. I don't believe age restrictions prevent access to minors much if at all. I'm personally thrilled that high schoolers are choosing vape over smoke. We all should be. And for that reason I don't strongly support age restrictions on ecigs. But I'm ok with it as long as minors can illegally access ecigs as easily as they can illegally obtain tobacco. If e-cigs become harder to get than cigarettes then there's a big problem. Also, if the only e-cigs on the market suck or are more expensive than tobacco then there's another big problem.

 

[MMW]

I think the solution is to require the government to prove that a law is needed to protect the public instead of the citizens being required to prove the law is not needed. Too much law making combined with a lack of common sense by the lawmakers will end with this type of witches brew.

Well done sir!

 

[DC2]

My point being, most regulations like this do little or nothing to prevent the "illegal" behavior they are meant to protect against, but, at a minimum, inconvenience those who are participating within the law.

Regulations often bring about or cause "unintended consequences" that truly suck. Many times those unintended consequences are worse than the "problem" they are trying to solve. Then they need to make more and more regulations and laws to fix the problems they created.

Add to that the fact that regulations are often promulgated by unelected bureaucrats who do not answer to the voters. The system is so severely and truly broken that it can't be fixed without massive change. It's getting more and more broken with every decision that supports the status quo.

Not too many years ago the college kids were enlisted to get out their vote for Hope and Change.
I'd like to see REAL hope and change though, not fake BS hope and change.

No more status quo.
Eh, whatever.

 

[schatz]

I've not thought age restrictions were reasonable since I had a conversation with my then 14 yr old grandson almost five years ago. If one believes that vaping is not the same as smoking and believes that it is safe ( or at least 95% safer) then why is it such a horrible thing that a teenager vapes ? Especially one that is already smoking before they are 14. And I should add, its not been found to be a gateway to smoking.

Back after I started vaping I was having a conversation explaining vaping to one of my 14 yr old grandsons. That conversation has always stuck with me. As I thought the conversation was ending he become all excited and wanted to know if he could get an Ecig for his 14 yr old friend. His friend had been smoking for 2 years and he wanted him to quit. When I explained that no, he couldn't buy an ecig for his friend until the friend was 18 his response was, "So my friend who has already been smoking for 2 years and isn't going to quit because his parents and siblings all leave their cigarettes laying around for him to take, has to keep smoking for another 4 years before he could switch to something without all the harmful stuff in it ? " "He has to smoke for 6 years before he could switch to vaping"" " What stupid adult thinks that makes any sense? "

Ya, I know, the friend could quit at anytime but we all also know that once he's started smoking he's hooked and isn't going to just stop smoking.

More recently my grandsons, who are now over 18, confided in me that many of the high school kids that are vaping are vaping zero nic. Those kids that were smoking before vaping are the ones vaping with nic. Most are getting their ecigs from friends that are 18 or over walking into stores and buying them for them, just like they get many of their cigarettes. Not to say that there aren't any, but they don't know any kids that are ordering with credit cards on line.

Very sad indeed. A couple of years ago I found a package of ciggies in my daughters car, she was only 16 at the time, and believed her when she told me it was her friends, Six months later I found another pack of ciggs in her car, This time I told her to vape instead. Vaping was cool anyways in her school so she switched. A year and a half later, present day, my daughter rarely needs juice made and needs batteries once a week maybe. We make our own juice and she only has to make 30 mls. a month, you know if she were still on the ciggarettes she would probably be up to a pack of smokes a day by now and have that burden and expense hanging over her head. She is probably going to move out on her own next month and she wont have that expense at least.

 

[DC2]

She is probably going to move out on her own next month and she wont have that expense at least.

Changing the world, one parent at a time.
I like it.

 

[Ed_C]

Proof would be that the FDA actually performed studies that proved vaping is causing health issues for many people instead of regulating an item that has not harmed many if anyone. Just some straight up basic science would be a good start. Proving that vaping is not less harmful than smoking should be required and if unable to provide that proof then no requirements for vendors to forgo that claim in their stores. In other words back your legal requirements up with actual facts or pass no law.

....and we are going to trust the FDA to conduct this science?

 

[Lessifer]

Will this regulation accomplish what it intends to accomplish? Will this regulation cause undue hardship on law abiding citizens? Is the REAL effect of this regulation worth the hardship caused?

The answers to those questions could get complex, but they seem pretty clear as far as vaping is concerned.

 

[schatz]

Changing the world, one parent at a time.
I like it.

Thanks DC2 I sure hope so.

 

[schatz]

By the way DC2 hows the Kava treating you ?

 

[DC2]

By the way DC2 hows the Kava treating you ?

PM coming your way...

 

[Ed_C]

The whole question of is vaping safe is kind of a unanswerable question. It's almost like saying is eating safe. I think it could very well depend on "what" you're vaping. There are certain flavors, like citrus, that seem to irritate my lungs. Will it cause long-term damage? I don't know, maybe. We are so far down the rabbit hole and there's so many different products on the market, it's a nightmare to try and regulate it at this point. Add to that, the hypocrisy of the cigarette companies getting a free pass for the vast majority of their products via the grandfather date, it's just a mess.

 

[Vandal]

I think the solution is to require the government to prove that a law is needed to protect the public instead of the citizens being required to prove the law is not needed. Too much law making combined with a lack of common sense by the lawmakers will end with this type of witches brew.

Something ought to be proven dangerous at least before regulation is a consideration.

 

[Lessifer]

Something ought to be proven dangerous at least before regulation is a consideration.

You mean danger by word association isn't sufficient?

 

[Tommy-Chi]

There actually were a few people here who Knew the sky wasn't going to fall on Aug 9. Ridicule was heaped upon them by the hand wringers.

Who's the eedeeits now?

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Bruce, there are 246,680 members of ECF, and 17+ million posts. You don't seem to like a diverse set of opinions based on your "eedeeits" reference to fellow ECF vapers who planned ahead. I'll keep your comment in mind.

 

[Vandal]

Bruce, there are 246,680 members of ECF, and 17+ million posts. You don't seem to like a diverse set of opinions based on your "eedeeits" reference to fellow ECF vapers who planned ahead. I'll keep your comment in mind. Everyone that does not agree with Bruce, please keep that in mind what he thinks about you.

Well, I don't feel like an "eedeeit" at all. Much of the gear that interests me is gone with the wind. Sold out everywhere for the most part, and with it all being older tech, unlikely to be restocked. If I hadn't purchased what I did when I did, I would be out of luck right now. If the regulations were overturned tomorrow, I'd still be in the same position.

I don't think it's silly to stock up for peace of mind. Stress and ex-smokers don't mix well.

 

[seminolewind]

I think this page is the best in the bunch. Regulating something that has not proved it needs regulation? No good reasons given? Lumped in with cigarettes? How many people have died from cigarettes? How many have burned their house down? How many have accidentally burned their kids? And cigarettes are still legal and the FDA Lets BT create loopholes for itself to prevent competition from a system that really works?

I have learned years ago that just because they are the FDA they are not exempt from being taken to court and challenged. This page is filled with good questions. Why are e-cigs so regulated and lumped in with tobacco when there has been no harmful facts other than misuse? The only chemical that ejuice has in common with cigarettes is nicotine. Like caffeine, it's addicting. Like caffeine it's a stimulant. Like caffeine it can make the heart race. Nicotine in itself has not been researched much due to other really harmful ingredients that had needed more research.

Is it legal to inhale steamed water? Steamed tea? Steamed coffee? Steamed Vicks Vaporub? Are lighters regulated or legal? Is Propylene Glycol or Glycerine legal? Is inhaling steamed nicotine legal? Are batteries legal?

Someone mentioned an ecig taken apart does not contain any regulated or illegal parts. I think that may be a possible "loop hole" for Vapers, and I used to break everything down and put it in my makeup bag for flights. Southwest last time I flew, required that I carry ecigs on my person, and not my check in bags. What if dealers have to just sell all the parts separately , the model, the atomizer, the propylene glycol, the glycerine, the amount of nicotine to mix into a 30ml or other size bottle, and the battery, and flavoring that bakeries use. None of that is illegal or can be regulated except nicotine, and may at some point. But I would not be against soaking patches and lozenges in some Proplylene glycol and straining it.

Tobacco is the FDA's Cash cow. They can all say they want everyone to quit smoking. But they don't really mean it. Think about it. BT would go bankrupt, Social security would not be able to support retired people because they would live longer. Hospitals would make a bit less money, and surely more changes.

I was a smoker for 35 years with no intention of giving it up. Until I was introduced to an e-cig about 8 years ago. I could give up cigarettes with the device. I Have major empathy for smokers and vapers. Smokers pay big time for their addiction, and it's really shocking how much of one's life is built on opportunities to smoke. And most of society does not want to trust a method created by smokers to help themselves. It wants to keep many of us failing at their approved methods that don't really work for most. I have to rant, I take this all very seriously . Follow the money.

 

[seminolewind]

Vandal, From my browsing last night, I saw how much was out of stock and never connected it to what's going on. Big Duh for me. next the prices will sky rocket.

 

[seminolewind]

Okay, just did my bargain hoarding. At H (gifts). Even they are out of stock on a lot. Like 555. But I did find some. They also have some good warnings on there about a few countries they've had problems shipping to. At least the Chinese are good about marking packages "electronics".

 

[Eskie]

I have learned years ago that just because they are the FDA they are not exempt from being taken to court and challenged. This page is filled with good questions. Why are e-cigs so regulated and lumped in with tobacco when there has been no harmful facts other than misuse? The only chemical that ejuice has in common with cigarettes is nicotine. Like caffeine, it's addicting. Like caffeine it's a stimulant. Like caffeine it can make the heart race. Nicotine in itself has not been researched much due to other really harmful ingredients that had needed more research.

As to taking the FDA to court, you can, but it doesn't mean the FDA will change their tune over it. http://www.clivebates.com/documents/FDAresponse.pdf

Same arguments, different document. Now the plaintiffs will have to rebut 100 pages of the same inaccurate and misleading claims and hope the court will see through the snow job.

 

[Bob Chill]

I expected nothing less than what the FDA responded with. They have to vehemently defend their position and they did. Now the plaintiffs will have to do their best to punch holes in the defense. They will do their best but if it's enough won't be known for quite a while.

I keep pondering the thought of Cole Bishop passing before the lawsuit is over. The FDA keeps reiterating how they are doing the job that Congress told them to do but Congress could very well pull the rug out from a large portion of the deeming reg's teeth.