Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
- Thread starter Oliver
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I have to agree with the above.
Seriously though, battery safety should be under something other than vaping regulations. Ecigs are NOT the worst offenders when it comes to batteries blowing up!
Just to play devil's advocate, I may or may not agree with the following
- Childproofing
- Many adults have physical difficulty opening "childproof" containers. It is the parent's responsibility to keep the products out of the hands of small children. At the very least, it should be optional is it is on medication.
- Prohibit Sales to minors, although I disagree, if the kid wants to smoke I would rather him vape, but I dont see how you could fight this one.
- What is the basis for an age restriction? Nicotine has not been shown to be addictive, in regards to vaping and there is no other credible health threat directly related to vaping that is strong enough to warrant an age restriction.
- Truth in labeling for juce, i.e. ingredients, nic %, etc
- How far does this labeling go? Would it be similar to food labeling where the result will likely be "Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, Natural and artificial flavorings, Nicotine." Or are you looking for something more detailed like the actual chemical makeup in the flavorings?
- Reasonable safe manufacturing practices. Not crazy like Indiana!
- Sure, I think it should be similar to any facility that prepares food for consumption. AFAIK there have not been reports of anyone coming to harm due to e-liquid contaminants.
- Some sort of battery standard, akin to a UL rating, for elctronic mods.
- The batteries within the mods are already subject to manufacturing standards.
- Really, the battery industry should be regulated for truth in advertising about chemistry, capacities, and safe manufacturing practices.
- This would and should not be connected to the vaping industry, it is a wholly separate matter.
- Childproofing
- Many adults have physical difficulty opening "childproof" containers. It is the parent's responsibility to keep the products out of the hands of small children. At the very least, it should be optional is it is on medication.
- Due to the potentially poisoness nature of nic, and often attractive aroma, I dont think childproof packaging would be unreasonable. End users could always rebottle it.
- Prohibit Sales to minors, although I disagree, if the kid wants to smoke I would rather him vape, but I dont see how you could fight this one.
- What is the basis for an age restriction? Nicotine has not been shown to be addictive, in regards to vaping and there is no other credible health threat directly related to vaping that is strong enough to warrant an age restriction.
- Political correctness, without this any discussion would fail. "Protect the Children" is a powerful message.
- Truth in labeling for juce, i.e. ingredients, nic %, etc
- How far does this labeling go? Would it be similar to food labeling where the result will likely be "Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, Natural and artificial flavorings, Nicotine." Or are you looking for something more detailed like the actual chemical makeup in the flavorings?
- OTC product level, like toothpaste, cough medicine, etc, so that active ingredients (nic) are explicit
- Reasonable safe manufacturing practices. Not crazy like Indiana!
- Sure, I think it should be similar to any facility that prepares food for consumption. AFAIK there have not been reports of anyone coming to harm due to e-liquid contaminants.
- Agreed, again, think OTC products.
- Some sort of battery standard, akin to a UL rating, for elctronic mods.
- The batteries within the mods are already subject to manufacturing standards.
- Require documented and tested standard protections like over current, over voltage, reverse polarity etc to achieve the UL(ish) rating, but the rating should be optional. Consumers could seek it or not.
- Really, the battery industry should be regulated for truth in advertising about chemistry, capacities, and safe manufacturing practices.
- This would and should not be connected to the vaping industry, it is a wholly separate matter.
- Agreed, but it is the root of many of the evils that plague us. If vaping safety is truly the goal, then this needs to be at least talked about. Tie it into the UL(ish) rating principle.
- childproofing - The same could be said for any number of products that do not require childproof packaging. The concentrations at which nicotine is poisonous are not the concentrations that ready to vape liquid comes in. Concerned individuals could rebottle their liquid into childproof packaging. Requiring packaging that makes it difficult for adults with physical impairments to access is ageist.
- age restriction - so you agree there is no health/science based reason for this, but you want to promote the one argument they use as the basis for all other arguments.
- ingredients - So you just want the nic included in the list, you're not concerned with the flavoring agents being specifically listed? I'm okay with that, I know there are others that insist on knowing whether or not diacetyl is present, whether it's added or not, and have called for this to be required on a label.
- battery standards - so you mean device standards, not battery standards. I actually assume that most regulated devices would already meet these standards, could be wrong though. Unregulated devices obviously won't meet them. I wonder how many battery ventings are actually due to a defective unregulated device? So, would this be a regulation that makes people feel better but doesn't actually accomplish anything?
- battery regulations - again, how many incidents are we talking about? How many are actually the result of defective batteries and not the result of user error/mishandling? I do agree that battery safety is a topic that needs to be discussed more often.
Yeah... Electric Cars are not Regulated in Any Way, Shape and or Form.
Prolly one of the most regulated (and subsidized) commodities there is…but Z, they're not labelled with a warning sticker to deter their sales. They're already GovMotors. That's my point. It is about the property right, first and foremost. You pay, they own. Of course, the conversation can't be about the pound of flesh they're exacting. It has to be about the trivial manner in which they excise it. As long as we persist in this fruitless venture, we will lose.
It is my expectation that they meet our standards.
Good luck all.
Prolly one of the most regulated (and subsidized) commodities there is…but Z, they're not labelled with a warning sticker to deter their sales. They're already GovMotors. That's my point. It is about the property right, first and foremost. You pay, they own. Of course, the conversation can't be about the pound of flesh they're exacting. It has to be about the trivial manner in which they excise it. As long as we persist in this fruitless venture, we will lose.
It is my expectation that they meet our standards.
Good luck all.
Like I said, I just don't see this as All that Intrusive. And compared to the Benefits of the Rest of the Legislation, it's kinda a No Issue.
If someone wants to Draw a Line in the Sand and say that this is a Deal Breaker, that's Fine.
But let me Ask you this. How do you Expect to get something like This Legislation, or Any Legislation, thru a Very Divided Senate if Everything in a Bill has to be Perfect for Everyone Voting on the Bill?
How would that be Possible?
And is the Alternative of Doing Nothing Acceptable?
About sums it up…whatever you put in front of that.
They should get their act together adequately enforcing the laws that they have without the confiscatory bias I've witnessed most of my life. If not realistic, jurisdiction should be reduced, not expanded. Perhaps then public attitudes may change but its going to take a lot of self-regulation on their part of their own means and methods.
I'll know it, when I see it. Then I might join some of you in the assessment of what is reasonable. When I see government more equitably apply the word.
Don't forget, vaping is tobacco.
Good luck.
My keyhole is bigger than yours. G'luck.
p.s. We have to keep reminding them it's our rules they need to follow. Or we will soon be lookin' over our shoulder.
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That's the point though, this legislation would make vaping NOT tobacco, which in and of itself removes the majority of the life threatening restrictions in the deeming.Don't forget, vaping is tobacco.
Good luck.
Ideologically, I support not having any real vaping specific regulations, I don't really think they're necessary. Realistically, there will be regulations.
- childproofing - The same could be said for any number of products that do not require childproof packaging. The concentrations at which nicotine is poisonous are not the concentrations that ready to vape liquid comes in. Concerned individuals could rebottle their liquid into childproof packaging. Requiring packaging that makes it difficult for adults with physical impairments to access is ageist.
- I guess we disagree, I dont have a problem with childproof packaging. It has become the standard for substances that are potentially harmful if ingested. Poisonous doesnt have to mean deadly, if its enough to make a child (because of body weight) sick, then it justifies it.
- age restriction - so you agree there is no health/science based reason for this, but you want to promote the one argument they use as the basis for all other arguments.
- Just being realistic. If you dont give in on this one then there is no conversation. They WILL win this point so why fight it. Choose your battles, lose one or two but win the war.
- ingredients - So you just want the nic included in the list, you're not concerned with the flavoring agents being specifically listed? I'm okay with that, I know there are others that insist on knowing whether or not diacetyl is present, whether it's added or not, and have called for this to be required on a label.
- Consumer demand will dictate further labeling. Just as "gluten free" or "no artificial colors" etc is driven by consumers. If consumers insist, manufactures will boldly promote it. At a minimum, it is reasonable to know the ingredients, and explicit levels of active ingredients.
- battery standards - so you mean device standards, not battery standards. I actually assume that most regulated devices would already meet these standards, could be wrong though. Unregulated devices obviously won't meet them. I wonder how many battery ventings are actually due to a defective unregulated device? So, would this be a regulation that makes people feel better but doesn't actually accomplish anything?
- Yes, "Device" standards would be more accurate. I agree that most decent regulated devices are already there, but cheaply made junk still makes it through. There are plenty of cases where mods failed due to overcharging etc, someone posted about one such case just yesterday in another thread here. A "VL" mod would have protections against that. It wouldnt stop the cheap junk, but it would give consumers the confidence that "VL approved" devices have the minimum safety features built in.
- battery regulations - again, how many incidents are we talking about? How many are actually the result of defective batteries and not the result of user error/mishandling? I do agree that battery safety is a topic that needs to be discussed more often.
- How many, heck if I know, but its enough of an issue that pretty much everybody reading this is aware of it. Mislabeling would be a big one, claiming a bat is 30A when it is only 15A. Just look at Mooch's testing. Then the user thinks they found a "deal" and buy the xxxFire, and over discharge an inadequate battery. Contaminants, introduced by less than safe manufacturing, are also a big thing in cheap Li-ion bats. If a device can explode due to contamination in a dirty facility, then yes, safe manufacturing principles would be a requirement for the "VL" certification. Most of us here are well versed on bats, but that poor slob buying his first mod isnt, granny down the street isnt.
Here's a regulation I would support:
Requiring lithium based batteries of all sizes sold to consumers to be packaged in silicone or equivalent sleeves, with a warning to keep them in those sleeves when not charging or using them.
That would likely dramatically drop the accidental short problem I see most often, typically erroneously pointed at ecigs.
Requiring lithium based batteries of all sizes sold to consumers to be packaged in silicone or equivalent sleeves, with a warning to keep them in those sleeves when not charging or using them.
That would likely dramatically drop the accidental short problem I see most often, typically erroneously pointed at ecigs.
Responses in the quote.
That would have no place in vaping legislation IMO. Perhaps li-ion battery legislation is on the horizon. An educational campaign of some sort is definitely warranted.
We agree. It's what I've been feeling for on this forum for over a year. What I blurted out a few weeks back. What everybody feels I talk to practically but hardly dare say. This is our right, we want it back. It's why we quit. Deep down.
Regulations equitably balance individual rights and interests. They shouldn't be grants of authority or agency to dilute or constrain the preceding. It's what distinguishes us as Americans. Or, at least, it used to.
I for one am not going to be reduced to the interest of a bureaucrat in a battery or a bottle cap without a damned good reason. If some can't see it that way, I'm sorry, really. But the implications are far more broad and general than as posed. And the consequences and price more dear than a mod fuse.
Do the means and ends justify the vacuum of fact and principle?
Good luck.
Only 1 reason it's inevitable.
Because those who should be opposing are accepting.
Such as your statement above.
I've given my proposal.
I wouldn't mind an age limit to buy, either.
Tapatyped
I own some of the very few actual mechanical REOs.
Including quite possibly the first.
Because I made them that way because they performed poorly in all OG configurations.
Tapatyped
There's some good and bad in that pdf. The bad is that you can probably say good bye to the guys that made most of this possible by providing custom mods. And if it hasn't been said yet, I'm wondering how you can possibly regulate a metal tube and switch beyond a retail level. That's if it's considered.
IMO there will be regulations because there will always be the argument that the children need to be protected in some way from vaping.
Very few people are willing to stand up behind the idea that that is nonsense.
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