Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[pennysmalls]

Perhaps from another perspective, like from a non smoking perspective, these liquid test results might bother me but from a smoking perspective, not at all. So maybe my perspective, one of having been someone who didn't want to quit smoking in the first place, causes me to be less concerned because I was going for broke with smoking anyway. I'm not going to panic until there is an actual concrete reason to panic. I'm the type though that doesn't believe something until it's irrefutable.

 

[Lessifer]

Here's another analogy: There was a recent "scare" about pulsing/dry burning coils. Did we start demanding that the manufacturers of coil heads start disclosing whether or not their coils were ever pulsed?

 

[AngiBe]

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and @Sirius for leading me to it. Weird how some things come into full circle. When I first started vaping @Robino1 had to talk me away from jumping off a cliff because I was so scared when I first started vaping because I had NO CLUE what were in these ejuices and inhaling this stuff and apparently, still don't know what's in them and still nervous about this.

Kinda miffed at comments (and yes, read them all) with people either bashing those that are concerned or comparing food/eating to inhaling. Popcorn lung (which is not limited to butter flavorings BTW) is EXTREMLY destructive to the lungs. Quicker, irreversible damage and worse than smoking I have read. 4,000 chemicals in cigs, yes..it's bad, but inhalation of certain flavorings/chemicals can be just as bad if not worse.

Like @Racehorse has said, we have the right to know what is in the juice we are buying. PERIOD. If a vendor will not disclose it, then I guess our option is not to buy from them. Personally, I'm vaping more unflavored bcoz all this stuff is scary as heck to me. I've done enough damage through the yrs of smoking, I'd rather not do more or worse.

I would try DIY but I guess I'm confused. I read somewhere that even a flavor vendor can have DA/AP free flavorings but certain flavors combined may cause a bad chemical reaction? Can create DA/AP? Is that true? I don't DIY so I didn't get what they were saying.

And @DC2, I'm with ya on Halo. I just bought 3 bottles of Fusion and a few others. They do claim to be DA free, what about AP free? I'd go in with you on the cost of testing bcoz that's one of the few vendors I might stick with. Actually, a lot of vendors claim to be DA free but none are mentioning AP which is frusturating.

 

[Robino1]

When I first started vaping @Robino1 had to talk me away from jumping off a cliff

I hope I didn't mislead you in any way Yes there may be risks. For me, smoking is the greater risk. This worked to get me off the cigarette.

I do believe that companies should disclose information, if they have it. If they do test, it should be on their website/store literature etc for those that really want that information. Required to test and disclose...that is the harder question.

This is a hard one for me. I can see both sides. *sigh*

 

[AngiBe]

I hope I didn't mislead you in any way Yes there may be risks. For me, smoking is the greater risk. This worked to get me off the cigarette.

I do believe that companies should disclose information, if they have it. If they do test, it should be on their website/store literature etc for those that really want that information. Required to test and disclose...that is the harder question.

This is a hard one for me. I can see both sides. *sigh*

LOL! Nope you never mislead me. You always told the truth which still holds true "we just don't know". But, we are all getting more info/education on this which is a good thing. The whole testing thing is questionable because, who would do the testing? And do we trust a vendor actually does it or with a reputable "tester".

I see both sides but I still wanna know what's in the juice I buy.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Here's another analogy: There was a recent "scare" about pulsing/dry burning coils. Did we start demanding that the manufacturers of coil heads start disclosing whether or not their coils were ever pulsed?

Not to criticize, as I find your postings to be well thought and reasoned, but I'm not buying this analogy.

If an alarming number of employees in a the coil making industry that had contact with vapor from pulsing coils came down with a rare and extremely debilitating, non-curable disease then I wouldn't wait around for scientific evidence to not pulse my coils. This same logic applies to inhaling Diacetyl. Only one consumer of microwave popcorn has ever contracted the disease, and he was a HEAVY user of Microwave popcorn. So if I only vaped a few times a year during family movie night, it wouldn't really concern me much. But as someone who vapes all day, every day, it does. I don't want to vape Diacetyl. In order to avoid it, I need to be aware of its presence in my Niquid.

Manufacturers can choose not to tell me, and I can avoid them. If they want my business, they will tell me. It's really that simple. Should they be required, or should they disclose if asked? Well, if I was their lawyer, I would advise them to CYA. Considering the size of many of these companies, the cost of a lawsuit by someone who contracts "popcorn lung" would be enough to close them down whether it was successfully proved or not. If I were their insurer, I'd find another client.

 

[skoony]

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and @Sirius for leading me to it. Weird how some things come into full circle. When I first started vaping @Robino1 had to talk me away from jumping off a cliff because I was so scared when I first started vaping because I had NO CLUE what were in these ejuices and inhaling this stuff and apparently, still don't know what's in them and still nervous about this.

Kinda miffed at comments (and yes, read them all) with people either bashing those that are concerned or comparing food/eating to inhaling. Popcorn lung (which is not limited to butter flavorings BTW) is EXTREMLY destructive to the lungs. Quicker, irreversible damage and worse than smoking I have read. 4,000 chemicals in cigs, yes..it's bad, but inhalation of certain flavorings/chemicals can be just as bad if not worse.

Like @Racehorse has said, we have the right to know what is in the juice we are buying. PERIOD. If a vendor will not disclose it, then I guess our option is not to buy from them. Personally, I'm vaping more unflavored bcoz all this stuff is scary as heck to me. I've done enough damage through the yrs of smoking, I'd rather not do more or worse.

I would try DIY but I guess I'm confused. I read somewhere that even a flavor vendor can have DA/AP free flavorings but certain flavors combined may cause a bad chemical reaction? Can create DA/AP? Is that true? I don't DIY so I didn't get what they were saying.

And @DC2, I'm with ya on Halo. I just bought 3 bottles of Fusion and a few others. They do claim to be DA free, what about AP free? I'd go in with you on the cost of testing bcoz that's one of the few vendors I might stick with. Actually, a lot of vendors claim to be DA free but none are mentioning AP which is frusturating.

i you want to live in your world of absolute out comes please do so.
please do not require thee rest of the world to do so.
have fun.
mike

 

[AngiBe]

i you want to live in your world of absolute out comes please do so.
please do not require thee rest of the world to do so.
have fun.
mike

LMAO,,, uh..what? I'm not requiring you or your world to do squat. What part of my post has you confused? Or am I not understanding you?

 

[Lessifer]

Not to criticize, as I find your postings to be well thought and reasoned, but I'm not buying this analogy.

If an alarming number of employees in a the coil making industry that had contact with vapor from pulsing coils came down with a rare and extremely debilitating, non-curable disease then I wouldn't wait around for scientific evidence to not pulse my coils. This same logic applies to inhaling Diacetyl. Only one consumer of microwave popcorn has ever contracted the disease, and he was a HEAVY user of Microwave popcorn. So if I only vaped a few times a year during family movie night, it wouldn't really concern me much. But as someone who vapes all day, every day, it does. I don't want to vape Diacetyl. In order to avoid it, I need to be aware of its presence in my Niquid.

Manufacturers can choose not to tell me, and I can avoid them. If they want my business, they will tell me. It's really that simple. Should they be required, or should they disclose if asked? Well, if I was their lawyer, I would advise them to CYA. Considering the size of many of these companies, the cost of a lawsuit by someone who contracts "popcorn lung" would be enough to close them down whether it was successfully proved or not. If I were their insurer, I'd find another client.

It's not a direct one to one, but it is similar. The actual physical evidence connecting "popcorn lung" to diacetyl is sparse and inconclusive. I'm not saying it's not dangerous, just that the connection is not direct or fully confirmed. The connection to AP is even less confirmed.

I agree that if you want to be able to avoid it completely, you should be able to ask a vendor if their liquid contains it. They may or may not know, and if they do know, they need to tell you.

 

[Sirius]

LOL! Nope you never mislead me. You always told the truth which still holds true "we just don't know". But, we are all getting more info/education on this which is a good thing. The whole testing thing is questionable because, who would do the testing? And do we trust a vendor actually does it or with a reputable "tester".

I see both sides but I still wanna know what's in the juice I buy.

No need to worry very much about one of our favorites @AngiBe,..as I stated in our conversation,..TPR uses the very lab that these tests on Five Pawns were done.,..( Enthalpy ) and I feel confident that they will release some kind of statement assuring loyal fans about the quality of their juices..It wouldn't be a bad idea for some to just shoot an email to your favorite supplier..Hey all they can do is just not reply right?!?
In such a case I wouldn't be very trusting of them though.

 

[Robino1]

i you want to live in your world of absolute out comes please do so.
please do not require thee rest of the world to do so.
have fun.
mike

LMAO,,, uh..what? I'm not requiring you or your world to do squat. What part of my post has you confused? Or am I not understanding you?

I think there may be a bit of reading between lines that doesn't exist.

Let's play nice

 

[Mazinny]

The irony is what some of the so-called advocates for vaping are saying is so strikingly similar to what BT and their "scientists" were saying in the 1950's.

Inb4 the same Dr. Farsalinos who was the darling of these advocates before he formulated his stance on diketones in e-liquid, will be mocked as a second rate unemployed cardiologist who is a stooge of big tobacco.

 

[Lessifer]

It's also ironic that some of the more alarmist among us sound incredibly similar to the anti-vaping crowd.

I think there's a fine line on both sides.

 

[Rossum]

No need to worry very much about one of our favorites @AngiBe,..as I stated in our conversation,..TPR uses the very lab that these tests on Five Pawns were done.,..( Enthalpy )

The tests that Cloud 9 had one on the 5P liquids were performed by West Yorkshire Analytical Services in Leeds, UK.

 

[Mazinny]

It's also ironic that some of the more alarmist among us sound incredibly similar to the anti-vaping crowd.

I think there's a fine line on both sides.

Fair enough ! But there's a big difference between saying " We don't know what's in the liquid so let's ban it " and saying " We don't know what's in it so let's be vigilant and not be dismissive of and minimize every potential risk "

 

[zoiDman]

The tests that Cloud 9 had one on the 5P liquids were performed by West Yorkshire Analytical Services in Leeds, UK.

I wonder How Much it would cost for them to tell You what is the Chemical Makeup of that e-Liquid you put on those pH strips?

 

[Rossum]

I wonder How Much it would cost for them to tell You what is the Chemical Makeup of that e-Liquid you put on those pH strips?

Dunno, but since they're in the UK and I'm not, they wouldn't be my first choice. Bottom line with that stuff: I have it here on my desk, both straight-up in the pods and diluted in a mod and I don't find myself using it much at all, so my interest in it has waned a bit.

 

[Lessifer]

Fair enough ! But there's a big difference between saying " We don't know what's in the liquid so let's ban it " and saying " We don't know what's in it so let's be vigilant and not be dismissive of and minimize every potential risk "

True but it's a short step between "this should be of concern" to "mandatory testing and disclosure" to "banned additives" to "banned flavors"

I'm all for people being able to make informed decisions, but I'm also okay with "We don't know" being an acceptable answer.

 

[zoiDman]

So has Five Pawns made any Official Statement about All This?

 

[Mazinny]

True but it's a short step between "this should be of concern" to "mandatory testing and disclosure" to "banned additives" to "banned flavors"

I'm all for people being able to make informed decisions, but I'm also okay with "We don't know" being an acceptable answer.

I'm not embarrassed to say that i haven't fully made up my mind yet on where i want to draw the line. Still mulling it over and when more information is in, i will adjust my position accordingly. What i do know is that it's a dialogue that we do need to engage in.

When i'm out in the general community i put on my advocacy hat, but when i'm on ECF i want to ask the difficult questions without being called a pseudo ANTZ and be confronted with every fallacious and disingenuous argument imaginable. And i obviously don't mean you, but there are more than a few.