Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors
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I am also concerned about the substitute/alternative. I am plausibly more concerned about this. Perhaps that alternative doesn't lead to popcorn lung, but without even a shred of doubt, you will eventually die, and it will be a contributing factor. Possible that depending on the alternative (and umpteen other considerations of what you intentionally or inadvertently put into your system) that it would be diagnosed as a major contributing factor.
For me, this issue boils down to - yes, you are likely impacting the healthy functioning of your lungs by inhaling really anything, but for sure something that is recreational. Unless following doctor's explicit orders to inhale such an item, and entirely likely under that scenario that you'd be doing so for a very shot period of time, you are ultimately responsible for this path / decision. I honestly think you need to be all of 6 years old to understand that vaping is going to impact lung health.
The degree to which it will be impacted, the nuances of the great many maladies that could result, the umpteen million contributing factors, the politics around all this, the psychology playing a role in all this, the spiritual dimension that ultimately determines the actual effect of all this, are items that will be debated for a long time to come.
In the meantime, if it is the type of 'danger' that is not leading to immediate harm, and is closer to - sometime in the next 40 to 80 years, this could catch up with you, is IMO folly. There's nothing that is harmless. Thus there is no safe alternative. Non-vaping is not inherently safe alternative, assuming person that is not vaping is still alive on planet earth. That some smokers do live until 100 does take something away from 'facts' that smoking can lead to premature death at age 28. It is not a direct causal link. That has NEVER been established.
But dealing with physical reality, minus any spiritual mumbo jumbo, then wisest decision is to stop vaping. If you are going to continue vaping and justify that you somehow need to vape for reasons that are your own, then not doing your own testing is relying on mumbo jumbo of another sort. Might be what is normal, but it is not providing honest nor adequate assurance(s). If you feel it would be enough for you that a company simply disclose testing results, I can relate to that, but in a debate such as this, that needs to be taken to task for what it is. And that is you are engaging in faith based, emotional rationality to appease your own psychological outlook on this situation. Framing it any other way is wonderful for the theoretical (and ultimately meaningless) concept that is total harm reduction, but is also the type of political strategy that could very easily work against the vaping community in due time. When associative causes are deemed supreme determinants of possible effects, then the political exploitation from adversaries is literally serving the notion of harm up on a silver platter that can be milked for an indefinite period of time.
For me, this issue boils down to - yes, you are likely impacting the healthy functioning of your lungs by inhaling really anything, but for sure something that is recreational. Unless following doctor's explicit orders to inhale such an item, and entirely likely under that scenario that you'd be doing so for a very shot period of time, you are ultimately responsible for this path / decision. I honestly think you need to be all of 6 years old to understand that vaping is going to impact lung health.
The degree to which it will be impacted, the nuances of the great many maladies that could result, the umpteen million contributing factors, the politics around all this, the psychology playing a role in all this, the spiritual dimension that ultimately determines the actual effect of all this, are items that will be debated for a long time to come.
In the meantime, if it is the type of 'danger' that is not leading to immediate harm, and is closer to - sometime in the next 40 to 80 years, this could catch up with you, is IMO folly. There's nothing that is harmless. Thus there is no safe alternative. Non-vaping is not inherently safe alternative, assuming person that is not vaping is still alive on planet earth. That some smokers do live until 100 does take something away from 'facts' that smoking can lead to premature death at age 28. It is not a direct causal link. That has NEVER been established.
But dealing with physical reality, minus any spiritual mumbo jumbo, then wisest decision is to stop vaping. If you are going to continue vaping and justify that you somehow need to vape for reasons that are your own, then not doing your own testing is relying on mumbo jumbo of another sort. Might be what is normal, but it is not providing honest nor adequate assurance(s). If you feel it would be enough for you that a company simply disclose testing results, I can relate to that, but in a debate such as this, that needs to be taken to task for what it is. And that is you are engaging in faith based, emotional rationality to appease your own psychological outlook on this situation. Framing it any other way is wonderful for the theoretical (and ultimately meaningless) concept that is total harm reduction, but is also the type of political strategy that could very easily work against the vaping community in due time. When associative causes are deemed supreme determinants of possible effects, then the political exploitation from adversaries is literally serving the notion of harm up on a silver platter that can be milked for an indefinite period of time.
So now this topic is about ANTZ instead of Dimitri ranting about dishonest eliquid vendors?
Aren't there more than enough ANTZ topics to post in, or do you just not want to talk about eliquid vendors lying?
And now the plot thickens, folks. This will be very interesting in the weeks, months ahead.
(TL;DR -- Five pawns has responded and claim they are taking legal action against Cloud 9 which has resulted in C9 taking down the results -- for now).
(TL;DR -- Five pawns has responded and claim they are taking legal action against Cloud 9 which has resulted in C9 taking down the results -- for now).
Their own tests show wildly varying amounts of DA and AP. Eh, I don't vape their liquid, if someone who cares thinks they have been untruthful after all of this, perhaps they should do something about it.
do I need to look somewhere else to see if Mr Dimitri was ranting about dishonest eliquid vendors being cloud 9 or dishonest eliquid vendors being 5 pawns OR is this whole shamozzle another round in he said, they said, maybe, could be, we don't really know, or is all this going to translate into my neighbour saying "that vapor stuff will kill ya you know here have one of my smokes - we all know all kinds of smokers who live till their 80's with roll your own" while I take a nice long drag on my nautilaus mini, look off in to the sunset and reply " um , don't know not sure but at least it only costs me a buck or so a week with DIY"
well... the op and Dimitri's rant weren't actually about C9 and five pawns, that just happened to come out during all of this. I can't find official statements from five pawns saying their stuff was diketone free so... idk. *shrug*
One reason for regulation are dishonest practices. A free market economy with safety requirements is still a free-market economy.
I am for tobacco harm reduction and whatever that entails. I am not switching from tobacco to something else that is bad.
Some laws are good.
I am for tobacco harm reduction and whatever that entails. I am not switching from tobacco to something else that is bad.
Some laws are good.
They seem to have emailed that statement to multiple individuals here Cloud9Vaping in the UK joins the testing of e-liquid trend and pulls entire Five Pawns Range : electronic_cigarette
Customer question: "Message: Hi,
You have probably had this question before, but as an avid fan and customer, I would like to ask your position about the recent Dr. Farsalinos test results. Could you tell me if your products do contain diacetyl, acetoin, or acetyl propionyl, and if so do you plan on changing this?
Apologies if this sounds rude or inappropriate. I personally don\'t mind, as long as it is my informed choice.
The juices I am currently vaping are Gambit (my ADV), Queenside, Grandmaster, Castle Long, Fifth Rank, Bowden\'s Mate and Perpetual Check, all bought last month from inTaste.de.
Kindest regards,"
Five Pawns answer: "I'm reaching out to you regarding your question. None of our handcrafted flavors use diacetyl or acetone or acetyl propionyl. We use only natural USP/food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine, resulting in a 50% VG/50% PG combination made in the state of California. All of our liquids are allergen free! I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind Regards, Annoushka Lyvers Five Pawns Inc. Customer Service (949) 474-4100"
Well, that looks like it was before at least some of the testing. I guess the person who wrote that email and received that response would have to decide whether or not they were given accurate information. It doesn't seem like it to me... but I'm a little sleepy and don't feel like looking at all of the dates.
Hum..OK thanks Rossum..I had read it elsewhere that Enthalpy had done the tests.
That's what I decided to do anyway. I take offence that someone would think I'm aligning myself with ANTZ..I'm doing nothing of the sort..I'm just looking out for me..You all do what you want to do. That's your business..I'll take my business to suppliers I can trust..and that would be the ones that fully disclose that they have their eliquids tested as a part of harm reduction.
Yes it BLOWS..there are many eliquid suppliers that I like one or two that I know have diketones in them..but I decided after a day of reflection that that kind of supplier doesn't have our health in mind,..only the bottom line.
Do you happen to remember who brought the topic of miners in the thread, then complained with righteous indignation that the answer is off topic?
If not, let me refresh your memories:
you could be right.its hard to tell.I think there may be a bit of reading between lines that doesn't exist.
Let's play nice
mike
who is being dishonest?
a lot of people believe these diacetyl,acetyl safety concerns
are being blown way out of proportion to what actually
is happening in real life.if the dangers are as profound as
some people claim where are the sick vapers? there should
be some by now.
popcorn lung damages the bronchioles of the lungs.
in order for diacetyl to get that far into the lungs
it would have to be dispersed into ambient air.
if i remember my studies correctly the size of the
vaporized particles in e-juice is to large to penetrate
that far into the lungs. even in the lungs it would have
to detach itself from its dispersion in the base mix
in large enough quantity's and penetrate deeper
into the lungs and still be enough to cause damage.
ppb or ppm in ambient air is not the same as ppb
and ppm dispersed into a viscous liquid.
in ambient air the particles are small enough to penetrate
deeply into the lungs.in vapor they are suspended in the PG
and or VG which we know does not penetrate that far.
if there were any health concerns it would be in what we
exhale when the vapor disperses and breaks down to small
enough particles to penetrate deeply into the lungs.
i do not think vendors are being dishonest. there are now vendors
that are testing.there are vendors that are not testing.
so pick vendor a or vendor b.problem solved .
who is lying? why is vapersharks and cloud9's tests acurate
and the other vendors not?
as an aside cloud9 pulled their test results down.
regards
mike
I think we have a case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.
What's going on is that vape shops are now starting to test themselves eliquids of unknown contents and cull their inventories accordingly.
Yes, there will be (unpleasant) surprises, but you have to look at the whole process and note that there's something good happening - the industry self-adjusting to customers demands.
Some will argue that regulations, if properly done, with the sole interest of the customer in mind, may speed up the process. However let's not forget that the most probable way they could turn out would be under the framework of FSPTCA and tobacco products. How those are working for improving customer safety we already know.
What's going on is that vape shops are now starting to test themselves eliquids of unknown contents and cull their inventories accordingly.
Yes, there will be (unpleasant) surprises, but you have to look at the whole process and note that there's something good happening - the industry self-adjusting to customers demands.
Some will argue that regulations, if properly done, with the sole interest of the customer in mind, may speed up the process. However let's not forget that the most probable way they could turn out would be under the framework of FSPTCA and tobacco products. How those are working for improving customer safety we already know.
@Jman8
Of course any Doctor would say the acceptable limit is zero, because it is an avoidable risk. My Doctor did.
However, let's resolve a technicality that you cannot seem to let go of, shall we?
Insert the word IF and CAN in that quote of mine that your panties are in a bunch over --> "so IF the tiniest amount CAN cause the tiniest etc etc etc".... and done. Maybe, just maybe I don't word things so carefully whilst posting on the interwebz sometimes. It's not my profession after all. Learning to grasp the general intention of some posts goes a long way on forums.
All better now? YAY!
However, it is strongly conclusive that when damage does happen via diketones, because of the type of damage it is, that it is permanent and cumulative. Your insistence that the scarring of deep lung tissue is able to heal, is incredibly ill informed, and frankly not open for debate. That is unless you're growing spare lungs in your basement in a petri dish with stem cells.... Are you?
Do me a favor; go to your nearest hospital, find a patient with pulmonary fibrosis or bronchiolitis obliterans, and with a straight face, tell them that their lungs can be healed from the scarring. No?
And subjective word of mouth stories about smokers switching to vaping and feeling better, meaning that there is no possibility of diketone inflicted damage still occurring and underlying, is nonsense. There is a whole laundry list of smoking related symptoms that when quitting, will make you breath easier and feel better. Let's start with the mad amounts of tar in your lungs that will clear out over the first few months... (which by the way, tar in the lungs, is why I would think that smokers are less susceptible to diketone damage, just speculating though)
Also, from what I understand, popcorn lung is the sort of thing you don't even look for until it's symptoms are pretty awful. You could just be short of breath, and chalk it up to your 20 year smoking habit, and just not noticing it ever so slowly getting worse over the years. My lungs feel great being smoke free for over two and a half years now, but I'm damn sure they don't feel as good as they were when I was 16. I'll always recognized I've paid a price from all that smoking. But I can live with the quality of breathing I have today, but certainly do not wish for it to get worse.
Who knows how severe this will or will not turn out after a decade of vaping is under the belt amongst the larger population. After two decades? After three decades? Even if it's only 10% scarring, that still sucks balls, and is avoidable. It should be our choice on the risk to take, especially for the known risks. Nobody should be subjected to it unknowingly, if it is entirely avoidable.
I'm may not be understanding this correctly, but please do follow the logic here:
25ppb, is 0.025ppm. Five Pawns has a flavor tested at 2,500ppm. That is 100,000x the NIOSH recommended short-term exposure limit in the quote you hand picked and threw at me.
I could be mistaken of course, but pretty sure I'm not.
You are nitpicking words and sentences, hand picking quotes to spin them out of context, all to beat a dead horse on an interwebz forum for an issue that is old news, re-birthed amid new controversy today because of the unheard numbers and lying.
Feel free to vape whatever diketone laced e-liquid you desire. I don't care if it's called "Diacetyl Hazelnut Butter YUM! YUM!" and has 10,000ppm of the damn stuff. I will assume it's absolutely delicious, creamy, and dreamy smooth. Have at it.
To anybody really interested and/or concerned about what is in their e-liquid, the best you can do is DIY or straight up switch to unflavored nicotine base. That is the only way to really know what's in your e-liquid. That's what I do. But of course, this is not practical or desirably for everybody. Not in the slightest.
I would like to see this hot mess and out of control e-liquid industry put their Big Boy Pants on. There are vendors out there that are indeed doing the right thing, and staying on top of these issues. They are testing, investing, re-formulating, and taking many self imposed steps to offer the safest possible product to their knowledge. And I'm sure more issues have yet to be discovered, that'll make them step back, and re-evaluate once again in the future. And if you want to stay relevant and in business, you'll indeed stay on top of it. But the fly-by-night "gourmet boutique" vendors slippin' by, and more importantly the unscrupulous ones flat out lying, need a proper smackdown, like yesterday.
Of course any Doctor would say the acceptable limit is zero, because it is an avoidable risk. My Doctor did.
However, let's resolve a technicality that you cannot seem to let go of, shall we?
Insert the word IF and CAN in that quote of mine that your panties are in a bunch over --> "so IF the tiniest amount CAN cause the tiniest etc etc etc".... and done. Maybe, just maybe I don't word things so carefully whilst posting on the interwebz sometimes. It's not my profession after all. Learning to grasp the general intention of some posts goes a long way on forums.
All better now? YAY!
However, it is strongly conclusive that when damage does happen via diketones, because of the type of damage it is, that it is permanent and cumulative. Your insistence that the scarring of deep lung tissue is able to heal, is incredibly ill informed, and frankly not open for debate. That is unless you're growing spare lungs in your basement in a petri dish with stem cells.... Are you?
Do me a favor; go to your nearest hospital, find a patient with pulmonary fibrosis or bronchiolitis obliterans, and with a straight face, tell them that their lungs can be healed from the scarring. No?
And subjective word of mouth stories about smokers switching to vaping and feeling better, meaning that there is no possibility of diketone inflicted damage still occurring and underlying, is nonsense. There is a whole laundry list of smoking related symptoms that when quitting, will make you breath easier and feel better. Let's start with the mad amounts of tar in your lungs that will clear out over the first few months... (which by the way, tar in the lungs, is why I would think that smokers are less susceptible to diketone damage, just speculating though)
Also, from what I understand, popcorn lung is the sort of thing you don't even look for until it's symptoms are pretty awful. You could just be short of breath, and chalk it up to your 20 year smoking habit, and just not noticing it ever so slowly getting worse over the years. My lungs feel great being smoke free for over two and a half years now, but I'm damn sure they don't feel as good as they were when I was 16. I'll always recognized I've paid a price from all that smoking. But I can live with the quality of breathing I have today, but certainly do not wish for it to get worse.
Who knows how severe this will or will not turn out after a decade of vaping is under the belt amongst the larger population. After two decades? After three decades? Even if it's only 10% scarring, that still sucks balls, and is avoidable. It should be our choice on the risk to take, especially for the known risks. Nobody should be subjected to it unknowingly, if it is entirely avoidable.
I'm may not be understanding this correctly, but please do follow the logic here:
25ppb, is 0.025ppm. Five Pawns has a flavor tested at 2,500ppm. That is 100,000x the NIOSH recommended short-term exposure limit in the quote you hand picked and threw at me.
I could be mistaken of course, but pretty sure I'm not.
You are nitpicking words and sentences, hand picking quotes to spin them out of context, all to beat a dead horse on an interwebz forum for an issue that is old news, re-birthed amid new controversy today because of the unheard numbers and lying.
Feel free to vape whatever diketone laced e-liquid you desire. I don't care if it's called "Diacetyl Hazelnut Butter YUM! YUM!" and has 10,000ppm of the damn stuff. I will assume it's absolutely delicious, creamy, and dreamy smooth. Have at it.
To anybody really interested and/or concerned about what is in their e-liquid, the best you can do is DIY or straight up switch to unflavored nicotine base. That is the only way to really know what's in your e-liquid. That's what I do. But of course, this is not practical or desirably for everybody. Not in the slightest.
I would like to see this hot mess and out of control e-liquid industry put their Big Boy Pants on. There are vendors out there that are indeed doing the right thing, and staying on top of these issues. They are testing, investing, re-formulating, and taking many self imposed steps to offer the safest possible product to their knowledge. And I'm sure more issues have yet to be discovered, that'll make them step back, and re-evaluate once again in the future. And if you want to stay relevant and in business, you'll indeed stay on top of it. But the fly-by-night "gourmet boutique" vendors slippin' by, and more importantly the unscrupulous ones flat out lying, need a proper smackdown, like yesterday.
Actually I have to thank you for my train of thought's all last night @schismz ... After I went on the 5P's blog and found that they had tested their eliquids and some came back with AP..it started me thinking how really bad that was..It's really crap to send off your eliquids and have them tested,..and then when someone asks you if your eliquids have diacetyl / AP in them,..lie about it..Another thing is after listening to the radio show again,..I decided that Dimitri was spot on when he said,.." Russ called three vendors and they said that,..Oh what they tested was from three months ago. We changed our eliquids since then",..or something to that effect?!? Hello,..you're selling this juice people! That doesn't quite sound like you are shooting straight. If they had said,.."Yes ours came back with some AP,..but we are pulling those and changing the flavors up". That wouldn't have sounded near as bad imo.
Anyway,..don't LIE to people...Shoot straight for goodnessake! It doesn't matter if you think diacetyl / AP are harmful..The test says that diacetyl and AP have the exact same effect. I decided I don't want to vape that anymore.
Holy wow Funk..Man what a post.. Excellent!@Jman8
Of course any Doctor would say the acceptable limit is zero, because it is an avoidable risk. My Doctor did.
However, let's resolve a technicality that you cannot seem to let go of, shall we?
Insert the word IF and CAN in that quote of mine that your panties are in a bunch over --> "so IF the tiniest amount CAN cause the tiniest etc etc etc".... and done. Maybe, just maybe I don't word things so carefully whilst posting on the interwebz sometimes. It's not my profession after all. Learning to grasp the general intention of some posts goes a long way on forums.
All better now? YAY!
However, it is strongly conclusive that when damage does happen via diketones, because of the type of damage it is, that it is permanent and cumulative. Your insistence that the scarring of deep lung tissue is able to heal, is incredibly ill informed, and frankly not open for debate. That is unless you're growing spare lungs in your basement in a petri dish with stem cells.... Are you?
Do me a favor; go to your nearest hospital, find a patient with pulmonary fibrosis or bronchiolitis obliterans, and with a straight face, tell them that their lungs can be healed from the scarring. No?
And subjective word of mouth stories about smokers switching to vaping and feeling better, meaning that there is no possibility of diketone inflicted damage still occurring and underlying, is nonsense. There is a whole laundry list of smoking related symptoms that when quitting, will make you breath easier and feel better. Let's start with the mad amounts of tar in your lungs that will clear out over the first few months... (which by the way, tar in the lungs, is why I would think that smokers are less susceptible to diketone damage, just speculating though)
Also, from what I understand, popcorn lung is the sort of thing you don't even look for until it's symptoms are pretty awful. You could just be short of breath, and chalk it up to your 20 year smoking habit, and just not noticing it ever so slowly getting worse over the years. My lungs feel great being smoke free for over two and a half years now, but I'm damn sure they don't feel as good as they were when I was 16. I'll always recognized I've paid a price from all that smoking. But I can live with the quality of breathing I have today, but certainly do not wish for it to get worse.
Who knows how severe this will or will not turn out after a decade of vaping is under the belt amongst the larger population. After two decades? After three decades? Even if it's only 10% scarring, that still sucks balls, and is avoidable. It should be our choice on the risk to take, especially for the known risks. Nobody should be subjected to it unknowingly, if it is entirely avoidable.
I'm may not be understanding this correctly, but please do follow the logic here:
25ppb, is 0.025ppm. Five Pawns has a flavor tested at 2,500ppm. That is 100,000x the NIOSH recommended short-term exposure limit in the quote you hand picked and threw at me.
I could be mistaken of course, but pretty sure I'm not.
You are nitpicking words and sentences, hand picking quotes to spin them out of context, all to beat a dead horse on an interwebz forum for an issue that is old news, re-birthed amid new controversy today because of the unheard numbers and lying.
Feel free to vape whatever diketone laced e-liquid you desire. I don't care if it's called "Diacetyl Hazelnut Butter YUM! YUM!" and has 10,000ppm of the damn stuff. I will assume it's absolutely delicious, creamy, and dreamy smooth. Have at it.
To anybody really interested and/or concerned about what is in their e-liquid, the best you can do is DIY or straight up switch to unflavored nicotine base. That is the only way to really know what's in your e-liquid. That's what I do. But of course, this is not practical or desirably for everybody. Not in the slightest.
I would like to see this hot mess and out of control e-liquid industry put their Big Boy Pants on. There are vendors out there that are indeed doing the right thing, and staying on top of these issues. They are testing, investing, re-formulating, and taking many self imposed steps to offer the safest possible product to their knowledge. And I'm sure more issues have yet to be discovered, that'll make them step back, and re-evaluate once again in the future. And if you want to stay relevant and in business, you'll indeed stay on top of it. But the fly-by-night "gourmet boutique" vendors slippin' by, and more importantly the unscrupulous ones flat out lying, need a proper smackdown, like yesterday.
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