Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[Racehorse]

How do you want to achieve that? Through due diligence in chosing from the alternatives? Or through offloading the burden to others via onerous regulations?

IF you are familiar with my posting history on ECF, you would already know that I am not "for" regulation. Your baiting is therefore, unnecessary.



I decided back in around early 2013 that I did not want to vape diketones, this was before Dr. F's study. I only wanted a list of vendors who could honestly show me that I would not be vaping diketones if I bought from them.

That turned out to be a big cluster-F. And has taken years to even get the information. And actually "forced me into DIY".

To anyone who wants to vape diketones, it won't matter if there are tests or not. The customers don't need or care about it. Fine with me.

My personal opinion has always been that it's bad, it shouldn't be in ejuice, and I wanted to help and support anyone else who felt the same way. It shouldn't have been this hard, but it has been. Some vapers are disillusioned because what they thought they were vaping isn't what they thought they were vaping. That is a sad situation.

Where it has gone from there is rather tragic because all that was required was a few vendors who also felt the same way, and would be upfront and honest in providing that information to those who wanted and needed it.

Now it's become an intrigue, with lawyers and bad blood and accusations even made about the testing labs........all of which left bad taste left in mouth of vapers who were just asking for something pretty simple and straightforward in the first place. It doens't have to be this hard. A simple question deserved a simple answer, and even back in 2013 or 2012 "we don't know" would have been an honest answer.

Instead what vapers got was a huge load of no diacetyl *ad copy* on websites, that became almost like an advertising slogan itself........with no testing to back it up, and now, in 2015, when the truth is that many STILL could have said "we don't know!"-----we got lied to instead.

Like Mazinny said, I don't know how many times you want to digress and change the subject here.

Is it okay with you that vapers who do not want to vape diketones ask for honesty? Even people who want to vape diketones don't seem to have a problem with our asking for that.

 

[gin828]

IF you are familiar with my posting history on ECF, you would already know that I am not "for" regulation. Your baiting is therefore, unnecessary.



I decided back in around early 2013 that I did not want to vape diketones, this was before Dr. F's study. I only wanted a list of vendors who could honestly show me that I would not be vaping diketones if I bought from them.

That turned out to be a big cluster-F. And has taken years to even get the information. And actually "forced me into DIY".

To anyone who wants to vape diketones, it won't matter if there are tests or not. The customers don't need or care about it. Fine with me.

My personal opinion has always been that it's bad, it shouldn't be in ejuice, and I wanted to help and support anyone else who felt the same way. It shouldn't have been this hard, but it has been. Some vapers are disillusioned because what they thought they were vaping isn't what they thought they were vaping. That is a sad situation.

Where it has gone from there is rather tragic because all that was required was a few vendors who also felt the same way, and would be upfront and honest in providing that information to those who wanted and needed it.

Now it's become an intrigue, with lawyers and bad blood and accusations even made about the testing labs........all

Well said

 

[caramel]

IF you are familiar with my posting history on ECF, you would already know that I am not "for" regulation. Your baiting is therefore, unnecessary.



I decided back in around early 2013 that I did not want to vape diketones, this was before Dr. F's study. I only wanted a list of vendors who could honestly show me that I would not be vaping diketones if I bought from them.

That turned out to be a big cluster-F. And has taken years to even get the information. And actually "forced me into DIY".

To anyone who wants to vape diketones, it won't matter if there are tests or not. The customers don't need or care about it. Fine with me.

My personal opinion has always been that it's bad, it shouldn't be in ejuice, and I wanted to help and support anyone else who felt the same way. It shouldn't have been this hard, but it has been. Some vapers are disillusioned because what they thought they were vaping isn't what they thought they were vaping. That is a sad situation.

Where it has gone from there is rather tragic because all that was required was a few vendors who also felt the same way, and would be upfront and honest in providing that information to those who wanted and needed it.

Now it's become an intrigue, with lawyers and bad blood and accusations even made about the testing labs........all of which left bad taste left in mouth of vapers who were just asking for something pretty simple and straightforward in the first place. It doens't have to be this hard. A simple question deserved a simple answer, and even back in 2013 or 2012 "we don't know" would have been an honest answer.

Instead what vapers got was a huge load of no diacetyl *ad copy* on websites, that became almost like an advertising slogan itself........with no testing to back it up, and now, in 2015, when the truth is that many STILL could have said "we don't know!"-----we got lied to instead.

Like Mazinny said, I don't know how many times you want to digress and change the subject here.

Is it okay with you that vapers who do not want to vape diketones ask for honesty? Even people who want to vape diketones don't seem to have a problem with our asking for that.

Now I see, every time you don't like a reply to your posts, you declare it off topic. How convenient.

Ok, let's play the game. Which part of your post (or any of your posts in this thread) are reffering to, and discussing Dimitri's rant?

 

[caramel]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i know the software is made by Evolv, they make the hardware no ? Either way i'm falling into the trap of following your digression. Don't really care about Vaporshark one way or another

Have a good night !

Let me correct you. Evolv designs the DNA 40 board and writes the software for it. A chinese factory assembles the board. Vaporshark makes a box using these boards. When the garbled screen bug surfaced, they pointed fingers to the chinese factory incorrectly manufacturing the board (missing conformal coating) and soldering the screen ribbon with incorrect tolerances.

People with industry knowledge doubted that conformal coating issues were caused by the chinese factory as they just use the Gerber files sent by the PCB designer (Evolv). They are brutally silenced in the Vaporshark thread as being off topic and asked to discuss coil building instead.

Evolv corrects the PCB design, sends the new files to the factory and announces that the chinese fixed their issues so you can confidently buy now. The garbled screen issue is still present but no one accepts it as a software bug. The proposed fix is "replacement of board".

The large screen version of DNA 40 appears. It uses a different PCB layout and a connector for the ribbon. Any electrical issues similar to those allegedly happening with the previous board revision are excluded. The screen still garbles, except now it's somehow concealed by a display reset after the screen blank outs. No comments from Evolv/VS.

Vaporshark publishes a list of e liquid testing showing how competitors are concealing diketones presence. Dimitri rants about it. All hell breaks lose on ECF regarding sneaky vendors and how they should be regulated. Dissenters are declared off topic.

 

[AndriaD]

I am beginning to rethink my position that this industry does NOT need government oversight. If this is the level of integrity in the manufacturing of our eliquids by even a small minority of producers, God help us all.

God helps those who help themselves. DIY your own ejuice and the stupid FDA can keep their busybody noses out of it!

If one depends on the gov't for "help"... then god help that person, because "helping" is not what the gov't does -- except for "helping themselves" to whatever they can get out of citizens.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

what is the gras level for inhaling it?

There isn't one... yet? "We just don't know" strikes again!

Andria

 

[caramel]

There isn't one... yet? "We just don't know" strikes again!

Andria

There is one limit for occupational exposure (NIOSH) but no limit for use in food (FDA). All you can eat buffet, bring your spoons and let's crack these diacetyl cans open. Just don't vape around them, eh?

 

[crazyjuiceflavors]

They all going to to die at 5 pawn as they claim they all vape it per this video.



Now all the companies that have failed the test need to understand a dead consumer can't buy your product and you are giving more ammo to the FDA.

 

[BigEgo]

I'm not sure if there is an Agree upon Level.

I don't think that CDC/OSHA has set any Standard Yet.

Here is some Info...

Safety and Health Information Bulletins | Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control

You might want to Page Down towards the Bottom where Individual Chemicals Compounds are Listed. It is a Long, Sleep Inducing, Government Document.

OSHA is not part of CDC. You're thinking of NIOSH.

And NIOSH has indeed provided recommended exposure limits. The problem is that NIOSH's recommendations cannot be legally enforced. That's where OSHA comes in -- their recommendations are legally enforceable but they have so far failed to accept NIOSH's recommendations or provide their own.

 

[SleeZy]

They all going to to die at 5 pawn as they claim they all vape it per this video.



Now all the companies that have failed the test need to understand a dead consumer can't buy your product and you are giving more ammo to the FDA.

That video is quite impressive, shame they can't live up to their own claims.
Also that clip made me think of breaking bad. ^^

 

[BigEgo]

Let me correct you. Evolv designs the DNA 40 board and writes the software for it. A chinese factory assembles the board.

Uh, no. The DNA-40 is made and assembled in Ohio. Most of the parts for the board are sourced from the U.S., though there are likely parts from China. But the board was designed and assembled in the USA.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Myself. I vape unflavored working my way to completely quit.

What then is your dog in this fight?

 

[skoony]

That may be because, as Dr. F and others, like pulmonologists, have said, the early lung damage may be showing up as, or misdiagnosed as, COPD.


At any rate, we all have different expectations for our health. A lot of ex-smokers, unfortunately, have a somewhat fatalistic attitude (and it has been impressed on them by the ANTZ) that since they were once smokers they are damaged, toxic, and hopeless in some way.

It is sort of depressing to see ex smokers seeing themselves this way, having been brain-washed by ANTZ, and making comments like "I smoked for 20 years.....so what's a little acetyl proprianol or other risky chemical now?"

I don't ascribe to that.

I read a comment somewhere from a fellow vaper that i agree with: "better than smoking" is a pretty low benchmark.

Indeed.

As far as I'm concerned..... and while I agree that vaping is harm reduction, not harmless..... I intend to aim much higher than that. I want more for myself.

And hence, more for the industry and other vapers and the future of vaping.

if popcorn lung was being misdiagnosed as COPD or anything else we
would know.
sufficient biopsy's are done in the course of treating lung disease
to determine exact cause and severity of the illness to determine
the proper course of treatment. if popcorn lung was a bigger issue
we would know about it.

regards
mike

 

[kates]

I'm not sure we would, I believe it requires a deep tissue biopsy which can mean opening up the lung. In the past I don't think it has been of concern when treating smokers as there are many other dangerous things in cigarettes which are well documented and which can cause lung disease - they haven't even thought (or bothered) about checking for it.

 

[skoony]

Dr.F. adressed that when he did those first testings: (on the subject of not knowiing they were using flavorings with high diketone and AP levels:

"They never asked for any proof for that (which means, analytical testing with proper limits of detection). Of course, this is not an excuse, they should have shown a more professional behavior."

Keep in mind, Dr. F.'s entire aim was, and is "for the industry to respond and solve the problem".

These vendors have had well over a year to do that. Right? And we are still not getting honest answers.

I get tired of the people defending the "oh, we didn't know" schtick....it doesn't meet even my lowest ethical standard and I guess I don't understand why it is acceptable to anyone else, either.

Thankfully, there are people at Cloud9 and Vaporshark who also don't find it acceptable, and maybe they got tired of waiting around for these vendors to do something, but for sure, they no longer wanted to "be liable" for distributing the chemical spew that some of are putting into bottles.

Some of you seem borderline suggesting that information be swept under the rug (that this information should be locked down in private exchanges between Cloud9 and Five Pawns, or Vaporshark and the vendors they distribute) have a very different compass than I do.

But bottom line is, some of us want to know these things, and thankfully, a few people are willing to tell us what the heck is going on! we WANT to see the actual values of diketones and AP.

And unfortunately, after over a year, if this still can't be presented, I applaud those shops who are not only protecting themselves from selling other people's questionable products, but looking out for their own first-line customers in the process.

again hind sight is 20-20.
if 5P's and other vendors are guilty of anything is they
lagged behind the curve of social expectations.
i am perfectly willing to believe 5P's thought at the
time that there products did not contain diacetyl
or acetyl. as time progressed and with a better
understanding of what a few of their customers
were concerned about its quite conceivable they
changed their minds and decided to bow to the pressure.
some people refer to this as lying.
to call someone unprofessional without knowing the
circumstances is quite uncalled for. 3 years ago
diacetyl and acetyl did not have the amount of
exposure and media attention and understanding
of the issues we have now.
3 years ago 99% of vapers had never even
heard of diacetyl or acetyl. i doubt this percentage
has dropped a significant amount. yet here we are
calling out every perceived harm or slight as if it
was the end of the world.
vendors just like us have a learning curve.to suggest
anyone should have the foresight to keep ahead of
the curve in all things is asking for people to read
minds and have encyclopedic knowledge.
in the age of facebook and twitter that would be
a daunting task indeed.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

double post

 

[skoony]

Wow. Holy Wow.

I emailed some retailers of 5p, with links to C9's test results, and the ClickBang podcast, and asked them to review the info and let me know what, if anything, they planned to do about carrying this line of eliquid. One retailer, IndyVaporShop.Com, chose instead of responding directly, to forward my email to 5 Pawns. This is the email I received from 5P:

Mike and Mark,

Thank you for forwarding this to us and we appreciate you and your team dealing with this professionally…

We take accusations very seriously, not only for ourselves but the industry as a whole. Yesterday we dealt with international and local legal teams all day to deal with an erroneous test and slander issue, so apologies for the delayed response.

It's a sad day in America when random tests without any validation on the product are taken for truth.

We appreciate each and every one of our Authorized Dealers, the staff and our customers and are continually testing our liquid; when a regulatory body requires data and provides standardized testing protocol we will comply.We have posted a statement with tests we have performed here: "
Five Pawns - Be Informed - Five Pawns


Five Pawns – Be Informed

Fivepawns is your place for all your e-liquid and e-juice needs. Try our premium vapor liquids to experience our signature taste and unrivaled quality.

FIVEPAWNS.COM

Now let me take this apart a paragraph at a time.
1st, I think that presently, the "industry as a whole" would likely resent the notion that 5P in any way represents them.
2nd, I will agree it is "A sad day in America". At least for Vapers that trust that when a manufacturer repeatedly makes claims that there is NO DA or AP in their product, that this statement might even be close to the truth.
3rd, "when a regulatory body requires data and provides standardized testing protocol we will comply". What about when a customer REQUESTS this info? Why was this not their response then, instead of giving information contrary to what tests that they had done on liquid THEY had submitted to a laboratory that THEY had chosen?

I am beginning to rethink my position that this industry does NOT need government oversight. If this is the level of integrity in the manufacturing of our eliquids by even a small minority of producers, God help us all.

i a not trying to be coy here but,what about all of us
who think that all of this is being blown all out of
proportion to any actual risk?
our opinions do not count?
do what you feel comfortable with. no need to speak
for me. i can speak for myself.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

GRAS is for eating not inhaling. You can eat diacetyl with no known problems however when you inhale it....
Apples and oranges.

to the best of my knowledge we are not inhaling
diacetyl or acetyl suspended in air. it is dispersed
into a base of PG and or VG. research has indicated
that PG and or VG does not penetrate as far into
the lungs as cigarette smoke which has smaller
particulate mater and gets all the way into the
bronchioles where the damage from popcorn lung
occurs. i am not saying absolutely no e-juice is
penetrating that far but,whatever is is still suspended
in the base liquid.how much harm does it cause then?
one of the reasons it takes more nicotine in juice
to get the same absorption you would get from
an equivalent amount from a cigarette is because
most is absorbed by tissue other than the bronchioles
as the just doesn't penetrate that far.
we have to look at the system and the science behind
it as a whole.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

Absolutely. I think that IndyVaporshop.Com, in forwarding my email as opposed to responding to it, either is not capable of forming their own opinion in this matter, or is jockeying for an extra allocation of Castle Long Reserve. In the spirit of full disclosure, this was my CC response to Jay Oku of 5p and "Mike" of IndyVaporShop.Com:


Thank you Mike, for including me in the loop in your conversations with Five Pawns.


Perhaps they would like to comment on the FACT that they HAVE had test results, since 2014, showing HIGHER levels of DA and AP than even Suicide Bunny had during their scandal. In a significant number of emails to customers who requested this information, and on the websites of many vendors who carry their liquid, there are claims that there is NO DA or AP present in their juices. Yet they continue to supply un-reformulated liquid to their vendors despite the knowledge that this is not correct information.


I take exception that 5P in any way represents “the industry as a whole”. I have found my dealings with other juice makers to be FAR more on the up and up. I take MY HEALTH very seriously. It is my personal opinion, that I take the results of a retailer of their juice, submitting a RETAIL blend to an independent laboratory, as likely more accurate of actual values than a sample submitted by the manufacturer for testing to a laboratory of THEIR choice.


It’s a sad day in America when the ALTERNATIVE to Big Tobacco appears to be going down the same road as the likes of RJR and Phillip Morris in deceiving consumers and withholding known statistics of laboratory analysis that would alarm educated vapers. The spin is all too familiar. Profit seems to be a higher motive than consumer awareness of facts in this matter.


I have never purchased Five Pawns. I have been given samples. Had I known of the high levels of AP and DA in this liquid, I would have never even sampled it. While I previously had advocated strongly to my representatives AGAINST government oversight of this industry, this is causing me to rethink my position on this matter. I believed that manufacturers would be extremely cautious just to PREVENT the need, but it appears I was mistaken.


Best regards,

i do not care about other peoples testing.
it does not mean anything.
there is no proven chain of custody documented.
it would never hold up in court. that is why
i suspect Cloud9 yanked their results so quickly.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

Let me correct you. Evolv designs the DNA 40 board and writes the software for it. A chinese factory assembles the board. Vaporshark makes a box using these boards. When the garbled screen bug surfaced, they pointed fingers to the chinese factory incorrectly manufacturing the board (missing conformal coating) and soldering the screen ribbon with incorrect tolerances.

People with industry knowledge doubted that conformal coating issues were caused by the chinese factory as they just use the Gerber files sent by the PCB designer (Evolv). They are brutally silenced in the Vaporshark thread as being off topic and asked to discuss coil building instead.

Evolv corrects the PCB design, sends the new files to the factory and announces that the chinese fixed their issues so you can confidently buy now. The garbled screen issue is still present but no one accepts it as a software bug. The proposed fix is "replacement of board".

The large screen version of DNA 40 appears. It uses a different PCB layout and a connector for the ribbon. Any electrical issues similar to those allegedly happening with the previous board revision are excluded. The screen still garbles, except now it's somehow concealed by a display reset after the screen blank outs. No comments from Evolv/VS.

Vaporshark publishes a list of e liquid testing showing how competitors are concealing diketones presence. Dimitri rants about it. All hell breaks lose on ECF regarding sneaky vendors and how they should be regulated. Dissenters are declared off topic.

that sounds suspiciously like a coding problem.
its hard to explain but when ever since 4 bit processors
went to 8 bit and letters were used slight errors can occur
in the process of copying the code from one source to
another.
regards
mike