DIY Atomizer anybody?

Discussion in 'Modding Forum' started by mu.zeitgeist, Feb 18, 2009.

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  1. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

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    Hi, I'm still new here but as an Electronic Engineer I couldn't resist the mod threads.

    My Intellicig EVO blew an atomizer today after 2-3 weeks of use, and the DSE901 sucks (at least mine does) so I'm back to analog ciggs until my Janty Kissbox set arrives (hopefully very very soon.)

    But good news is I finally could get myself to rip apart this expensive unit. I tore the ground mesh (primer?) off the Intellicig atomizer and found the coil completely charred with carbon-like "stuffage" around it.

    I really have a bunch of questions now that I hope someone can answer if the matter has been researched already. I want to build an atomizer that I can keep rebuilding so I can repair the atomizer whenever it breaks down and not be in this situation again as I am sure most other have been also. Perhaps many here would want the availability of a core exchange?

    Q: Is the charred material on the coils from burned insulation material on the coil itself? Or carbonized PG?
    Janty does claim their liquid leaves no residue on atomizers. Obviously the coils get red hot within the atomizer and most chems that leaves a deposit will eventually become charred from the heat. I cannot imagine the thin insulating layer on a coil would produce this much carbon when burned.

    :cry: I would hate to place blame on Janty juices leaving carbon residue, someone tell me it ain't so?:cry:

    Q2: What is the temperature of the atomizer when fully heated?

    Wiki claims PG for most uses vaporizes at 150-220℃ so a low temp atomizer would be a loser, and a high temp variation nearing 220 degrees at operation would be a vapor champ? This all is my assumption, as I've come to notice atomizers come in many personalities perhaps this is the culprit?

    Q3: I know somewhere on this forum someone said the Atomizers draw 1A at 3.7V which would make the atomizer have a 1Ω resistance. This must be cold resistance and much higher during operation, does anybody know what the resistance is at working temp?

    The battery's internal resistance is significantly higher than 1ohm, a 3.7v at 300mA (if it's a decent condition lithium ion pack) would be about 12.3Ω so it should be well beyond 12.

    Q4: Is the atomizer heating element just a Nichrome filament? If it is what is the resistance of this wire per meter (or foot)?

    Q5: Has anybody used a different source of heat (not a battery operated heat producer; i.e., flame, friction) for the atomizer?

    Thanks!
     
  2. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

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    My bad, internal resistance of battery not 12ohms, the one on Intellicig was way way higher @ 300ohms after I loaded it with a res.
     
  3. madog

    madog Super Member ECF Veteran

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  4. bribri

    bribri Moved On

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  5. Kate

    Kate Moved On

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    Hi Zeitgeist, welcome to the forum.

    Not all eliquid leaves the same amount of residue, Janty eliquid is apparently pretty clean. There are some pictures here comparing the residue left by different brands, scroll down to the pictures of teaspoons - Ampullen en Liquid testje - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique

    This might interest you also - Black Stuff in Atomisers - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique
     
  6. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

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    Thanks Kate and others. I've come to the conclusion that these atomizers are just new and undeveloped. Obviously not much R&D goes into building these things and it shows when the atomizers are so tempermental and easy to blow.

    However the blame is not all at the production company, I do have to admit these things take a beating. I do indulge heavily on the vapes at home and thats probably where 80% of the damage happens. I almost can forgive the carbon residual "matter" considering I vaped about 10-15ml of juice out of one $20+ atomzier. The bad part is at this cost I think analog ciggs are cheaper, more reliable, slightly negating the point of the ecig.

    I sat down and realized most people do not need a portable device to vape at home with. In fact it would be preferable to have something heavy duty with a direct coupling to a 100v outlet or via USB where portability is completely not an issue.

    So far here is what I've come up with.

    Option 1. Nitro engine igniter/glow plugs:

    OK, so this morning I bought a few of these bad boys out at the hobby store and it already has a battery attachment that makes it quite compact and look exactly like a screwdriver (I think the SD can be a modified version of it).

    Pros: Each plug/atomizer cost is under $5, extremely compact, efficient (can be battery operated), easy to replace, instant ignition, many manufacturers with same socket type, hot/cold plugs, pressure sealed unit, can be run without forced cooling (long lasting).

    Cons: Requires modification including cautious drilling through the plug itself to get airflow through it, or some venturi effect smoking unit to get vapor production for easy smoking.

    All I can say is :evil:THIS WORKS:evil:. I would be lying if I said I tried this with the actual battery attachment for it to see how long/reliable it could be used to smoke out of in public. I just used an AC adapter to provide the voltage and used gator clips to glow them and dropped some PG on the element. I'm almost certain I would like to pursue this when I get some time this evening.


    Option 2. Diesel Engine glow plugs.

    I will place an order on some plated glow plugs this weekend to see if I can make a vapor device out of one. If size is not a concern I am hoping this will be a GREAT home smoking device.

    Assumed Pros: Almost guaranteed to not break, extreme vapor production, operates on 12V.
    Assumed Cons: Smoking device will be heavy, non portable.

    Will keep this updated. I am hoping my KissBox is on its way with the vanilla juices :D

    If anybody has any other ideas of what would be a good heat producer please let me know!
     
  7. keys

    keys Full Member ECF Veteran

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    Of course, something I learned the hard way, you want to prevent your cart from getting dry. Top off constantly, even if you flood the atom (there are numerous threads on cleaning it, which you will have to do occasionally). Also, if your battery is turning on constantly, while the e-cig is in your pocket, it will die. Throw the battery away immediately. Before I knew how these things work, a bad battery killed numerous atoms on me and it was outside Puresmoker's short warranty. You won't get a refund and you'll need a new battery on top of the new atomizers. I make it a habit of feeling the atom to see if it is hot. If so, I put it down, let it rest until it cools. Topping off and never letting it get hot are the two best things you can do to extend atom life (and, of course, watching to see if the battery is wonky, the cost of a battery replacement is way better than buying endless atoms.
     
  8. katink

    katink Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    When we use usb and batterypacks, we are using 5v for the atomiser. And if I may suggest a possible candidate for heater: take a good look at the lighter/heating-coil of the Zibro-Kamin (or Zibro-Camin) campingstoves: someone in my country has built an atomizer using this and he claims he has been using it without any trouble for half a year (and still going strong) while it's very easy to replace it when needed.
    I sure hope someone will come up with an easy-to-build (even for amateurs) atomizer :)
     
  9. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

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    The Zibro-Camin must be a non-US thing. If it's similar to one of those electronic stove top heater elements I can imagine its a pretty damn powerful and long lasting vapor producer.

    I should also state that I had an idea of using toaster elements, though it was abandoned. It requires an incredibly high amperage source. Something like a 18v 2.8Ah impact driver battery just to function as a readily available heat source, and would require very ballsy smoker.

    Any ideas to where I can get a schematic for the Zibro-Camin modified ecig device? I'd like to know more or ask the designer a few questions regarding mouth piece and how he unified everything.
     
  10. katink

    katink Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    A few links about diy-things on a dutch forum, in which you will find a number of posts about this (it went off-topic, though the other parts might be of interest also): http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esigaret.nl%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D5274&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0=
    (posts 13 and 15 are about this) and http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esigaret.nl%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D3%26t%3D5141%26start%3D0%26st%3D0%26sk%3Dt%26sd%3Da&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0= (post 10 is where zibro-kamin discussion starts in this thread)
    These are through google-translate, so it might be a bit of guesswork here and there. The person that actually made the zibro-kamin atomizer is Rogier58 (you need to be registered and logged in without google translate to send him a pm: to send that look at top-left of each forumpage, press 'leden' (= members), then go to the 'R': he is last one on page 3 of the R).
    Hope you can manage with the above; if not you can always send me a pm and I will try to help. :) (oh and Rogier will understand english I expect: most dutch do.)
     
  11. bribri

    bribri Moved On

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    They have these nitro glow plugs for remote controlled toy cars as well. Can you do it with those to make it smaller? Or is that what you are talking about?
     
  12. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

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    Nitro glow plugs are exactly what I'm using. It runs off 1.2-1.5v, and ignites pretty instantly. Racer's Edge #3 plugs seemed to be best as far as sheer amount of vapor goes. I only have one plug left to destroy so wish me luck, then I'm going to have to order them bulk on Ebay, RE goes for $6 at my local hobby store and is too much for what its worth.

    I have one "e-cig" semi-built and unfortunately only a wee bit "working" because I drilled right through the coil by accident, a tiny piece of the coil is still warm so it is still vaping albeit just a bit. Maybe after dinner I'll take a look at the last plug.

    If anyone wishes to try working with me, the prototype so far is stuffed into a maglite solitair with the bulb end bored out to fit the glow plug. Takes about 2 seconds to tear it apart and stuff the plug in.

    So right now I still think this would work, modify the plug right and we should have a BAMF atomizer on our hands for dirt cheap.
     
  13. seededcrown

    seededcrown Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    well mr. we need to adapt a cart to fit the plug too, or did you already do that. This is an interesting concept to me. I Have nitro r/c cars and i think the glow plug would make an awesome atomizer!
     
  14. mu.zeitgeist

    mu.zeitgeist Full Member

    Joined:
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    Eugene OR/ Kobe Japan
    Intellicig carts "slip on" to the glow plug. I don't believe this to be a solution though.

    I am working on the proper, replicable modifications required to get PG to the element and position the correct atomizer holes so air can slip through the coils.

    Otherwise directly dripped onto the glow plugs? Workin' just fine. Try a drop on a plug, go at an angle so the PG goes into the coil and ignite. I highly recommend the solitair for a mouth piece and plug holder. These things do get HOT.
     
  15. RjG

    RjG Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Or you can rebuild your atomizer
     

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  16. RjG

    RjG Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    ... put it back together
     

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  17. RjG

    RjG Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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  18. DaveyRoots

    DaveyRoots Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Wow I knew it had to be this simple
     
  19. madog

    madog Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Glo Plugs - I went this route about 3-4 months ago - I wanted something cheap and easily replaceable and easy to obtain - After much testing and destroying many atomizers (glo-plugs), I abandoned the idea for these reasons.

    1. If you order Direct you can get the OEM atomizers for $4.50
    2. If you cant order direct you can get them for $6 from Katy at the smokelessshop.com - So you are just replacing a $6 device with a $6 dollar device. That -
    A. you have to mod to get to work ( you have to create some way of getting air to go over the coil get heated and the hit the PG. Which means drilling the glo-plug.
    C. The voltages are all off - 1.5 - 1.2 volts - Ohms law when voltage goes down the amperage(current) is going to go up at the same wattage or power (temp) so battery life is going to suffer.

    I had built a PWM controller - If you look around on the Internet for "glo plug driver" PWM (Pulse Wave Modulator) you will find many schematics and designs - What these circuits to is basically turn on and off the supply voltage at a high rate to the current hungry device allowing it to use a higher voltage with current limiting. Kind of like turning on and of a light switch really fast - This does not allow "HEAT" to over load the device and "BURN" it out.

    I also abandoned this device - Which I believe what the good doctor had developed here in this thread - However it have never been confirmed and is just MHO - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/3372-e-turbo-my-new-invention-27.html
    It does work however I do not believe there is a real need - Why?

    The Magnum - uses two cr2 batteries when fresh at full charge are about 7.2 volts - in operation they drop to around 6.5 and go down from there in voltage until they expire. I have had the same atomizer in use on the Magnum for well over 2 months now - I Never Clean it - When I fill my Magnum I use a combination technique in which I fill up the cart with a little eyedropper as well as add a couple of drops to the atomizer (pseudo dripping) and this keeps the atomizer lets say semi flooded - HEAT is the enemy of any atomizer. I adds stress to the coil and it initial fails.

    RjG is on the right track here - We need a cheap replaceable coil.

    If you go down to the same Radio Controlled Hobby Shop and Ask for Nichrome wire they have it - they (hobbyists) use it to make hot wire foam cutter for cutting out airplane wings and various other stuff. I have been experimenting with the SIG Brand (No gauge listed but I will gauge it later)- I have found that 8 turns on a 2-40 screw works out to approx. 4 ohms - the thing heats up "FAST" and should work awesome. I have removed the socket which is ceramic out of a quartz halogen puck light available at most home improvement stores (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=240026-207-XPV30HCL&lpage=none it is a G4 Base) and am utilizing it as a socket. I have worked out a housing and attachment method but haven't had the time to put it all together at this point hopefully today but definitely by the end of the weekend.

    What this will do is for $3 allow you to twist up almost an infinite number of coils and tweak them to your projects voltage requirements and TEMPERATURES (Let's say higher for oil instead of water (PG) based substances).

    Even if the coils burn out faster more R&D can be done on correct turn ratios to voltage requirements and they are almost have a non-exisistant price. I have got all the parts necessary to build the atomizer case and attachment and have only spent like $10 even with the nichrome wire which SIG and comes in a little package and is like 4 feet long. Will post more as I get things finished.

    PS - One thing that always worried me about glo-plugs the warning on the back from the state of Cali that said contains items known to cause cancer? Maybe they fuel left over from the testing process at the factory?

    here are some pics -

    OH - On a side note I thought is was real interesting the number of "Oregonian's " driving this thread - Makes me proud - :)
     

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  20. smog

    smog Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Great thread here guys .RjG's stripdown and DIY rewind !. Brilliant :)

    Madog yours looks promising too, i knew you'd invent something having read you previous posts :) . Have you already worked out how to mount it and how you gonna get the liquid to bathe the coil ?
     
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