DIY Experiment: Remove SWEET Aftertaste

[Polaris]

Hello DIYers, I signed up because of the thread, now closed, titled "Vinegar?" which I think might solve my problem. I'm half way through it and am acquiring supplies as I go.

The problem is a sweet aftertaste of literally every recipe which I make. No matter what flavor this is what happens: I start to inhale, it tastes like it should....and then comes the awful, sweet, nasty after taste. I'm doing max VG, nicotine is PG based.

On hand: Malt vinegar, distilled white vinegar, apple cider vinegar with the 'mother,' saline solution, lemon juice.

On mail order: Bitter Wizard, MTS, EM, and Smooth Flavor.

Current plan: Create nine 5ml identical samples of the exact same single flavor recipe, strawberry. Add in to each of them one component listed above. Pray that this works, since the juice supplier I was buying from is gone and every other juice I have made or tried has this same sweet aftertaste.

I will be posting results, and welcome comments.

 

[DavidOck]

Might be the VG, especially since you're at max. A different ratio or a different brand of VG might be all that's needed.

And welcome to ECF!

 

[sketchness]

Check your bases first. Have you vaped your base plain? Do you like it? After you have vaped the VG plain, then mix some with nic, no flavors and see how that is. Then it is down to flavorings. It would be helpful if you listed a recipe with flavoring percentages and brands.

 

[Polaris]

Check your bases first. Have you vaped your base plain? Do you like it? After you have vaped the VG plain, then mix some with nic, no flavors and see how that is. Then it is down to flavorings. It would be helpful if you listed a recipe with flavoring percentages and brands.

I have not vaped my base plain or vaped VG+Nic. I will do that then before starting these 9 experiment bottles. I may also buy different VG if I can track down some suppliers. Would you be able to recommend a non-sweet VG?

Here is the recipe I am working with 10ml, very simple:

Nicotine 60mg (Wizard Labs) (100% PG): 1ml
VG (Wizard Labs): 8ml
Strawberry Banana (FW): 1ml

Will half this for my experiments.

I have made other similar recipes: Strawberry (three different brands), Banana (2 different brands), Spearmint, Wintergreen, RY4, Vanilla, Orange Cream, Juicy Peach, and Pear. All of these taste right at the beginning, then have the horrible after taste which is sweet and almost rotten.

The sweet taste is worse with no nicotine. I first made some without nicotine (so that I didn't waste it) and it was so close I thought "if I add nic I will have it!" Then I add the nicotine and it's somewhat better but still has this horrible after taste. I can't do it. It's not vapable to me. I am horrified at the fact I may return to smoking if I cannot duplicate this juice.

 

[r77r7r]

Last post in this thread touches on using vinegar - Base Mixing Tips and Tricks

 

[sketchness]

All VG is slightly sweet to me and most other people. I think getting a base you like is the first order of business. I get mine from essential depot. Bulk apothecary is another popular vendor. There are others but I can only speak to essentials depot as they are all I use.

Just based on your description it seems like the base is off. Those are very different flavors to all have the same problem.

The tfa thread talks about using tfa raspberry to cut the floral taste of some flavors. But get your base checked before you start throwing fixes at your mixes! Make sure you are testing on a fresh coil/wick.

 

[IDJoel]

I have to agree with the previous posters; it sounds like it is the VG's natural sweetness. I have used 4 different sources for my VG including local brick & mortars and on-line. Without exception all of them have had a natural sweetness. Fact of the matter... I noticed no discernible difference between ANY of them. Now I shop primarily by price. (I should note that my taste buds are pretty fried after 35+years of smoking so there may be a large percentage of vapers who can.)

I am one of those who uses unflavored (just PG/VG/nic) as part of my regular rotation because I enjoy its subtle natural sweetness and it seems to help me from getting vapor's tongue.

I would second @sketchness 's suggestion of starting with a clean coil and wick and vape a small amount of VG all by its self. Then do the same thing with your PG. Notice how the flavors are different. Then mix up a small amount (5mL would be plenty) of your usual ratio of PG. VG, and nic (at your usual strength), give it a quick shake and taste that. If my guess is right you are going to taste your unwanted sweetness in both the straight VG and the unflavored mix. You will not taste it in the PG.

If I am right you have some choices:

• You can try other brands/suppliers of VG. I don't hold much hope for this; my understanding is there are actually very few manufacturers of this and most of the retailers are all selling the same 3 or 4 manufacturer's product under their own label. And to make it even more difficult to know what you are getting; many of these retailers will change their suppliers (based on who's cheapest at the time they place their order) without any notice to their clientele. So you could buy 3 different bottle of the same VG from the same vendor and actually be getting 3 different manufacturers product. VG being sweet is the nature of the beast; I am not aware of a "non-sweet" VG (though that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
  
• You could lower the VG in your overall ratio. Instead of mixing at max VG; mix at a higher PG/lower VG ratio.
• You can look to additives like vinegar, lemon juice, or some of the sours (often malic acid) offered by various vendors like these: Sour-TFA, Super Sour-WL, or Sour Wizard-FA. Bitter Wizard-FA may be a worthy candidate. FA describes it as: "designed to reduce or eliminate the sweet basic taste given by PG or VG. Adding the BW at 1%, vapers can get a pleasant bitter aftertaste, which can be enhanced further increasing the dosage."

I played briefly with vinegar and lemon juice but wasn't wild about the results. They can add a genuine sour note to your mixes but they faded pretty quickly for me (usually in less than a week). Of course your mileage may vary.

You mentioned Smooth as well. This is one that I keep in my mixing box but I don't think it is what you are looking for in this situation. It is primarily used to soften the high/sharp notes of a recipe. I don't think it is going to do much for reducing sweetness. Same for MTS (Vape Wizard): primarily for tobaccos, designed to reduce "sour" perception. Definitely NOT EM (or Cotton Candy) as these are most often used to SWEETEN mixes.

I hope you find your answer!

Oh; and WELCOME to ECF!

 

[BrotherBob]

Hello DIYers, I signed up because of the thread, now closed, titled "Vinegar?" which I think might solve my problem. I'm half way through it and am acquiring supplies as I go.
The problem is a sweet aftertaste of literally every recipe which I make. No matter what flavor this is what happens: I start to inhale, it tastes like it should....and then comes the awful, sweet, nasty after taste. I'm doing max VG, nicotine is PG based.
On hand: Malt vinegar, distilled white vinegar, apple cider vinegar with the 'mother,' saline solution, lemon juice.
On mail order: Bitter Wizard, MTS, EM, and Smooth Flavor.
Current plan: Create nine 5ml identical samples of the exact same single flavor recipe, strawberry. Add in to each of them one component listed above. Pray that this works, since the juice supplier I was buying from is gone and every other juice I have made or tried has this same sweet aftertaste.
I will be posting results, and welcome comments.

Welcome and glad you joined. Have you had other vapers taste your juice and confirm? If not, please do so and get back.
It could be just you.

 

[Polaris]

I really appreciate everyone's responses! Thank you all for being so kind.

Based on the feedback, I am not yet proceeding with my initial plan stated in the OP. Because of what @IDJoel said about VG suppliers buying from suppliers and not always the same supplier, I am going to choose NOW brand as one of the new VGs. I believe NOW will provide a consistent supply. I take their supplements sometimes and am comfortable with that brand. The other is going to be Essential Depot. These are already on order.

New plan:

Vape plain VG from each of the three: WL, ED, and NOW. See if I can taste a difference. If I can and have a preference, stick with the preference and try it with nicotine added. I'm not adding PG alone, but have both PG and VG nic already (also from Wizard Labs) to experiment with.

@BrotherBob my DH can also taste the sweetness, it's not just me. This leads me to think the posters here are likely correct and the problem is the VG. I certainly hope this is the case so I can move on from this issue and get to making a recipe I can vape. I really don't want to start smoking again.

 

[BrotherBob]

@BrotherBob my DH can also taste the sweetness, it's not just me. This leads me to think the posters here are likely correct and the problem is the VG. I certainly hope this is the case so I can move on from this issue and get to making a recipe I can vape. I really don't want to start smoking again.

Since VG can be made from the three most common plant matter (palm oil, soy, or coconut oil) might want to find out which you are using and try one of the others.

 

[Polaris]

Great! I had no idea it was either palm, soy, or coconut. Right on the Wizard Labs page it says "All of our vegetable-derived glycerin is 100% sourced from palm fruit" I'll compare to the two others when they arrive. Incredibly helpful if I can determine I prefer it a particular way. Thank you so much @BrotherBob!

Edit: Amazon tells me that the NOW VG I ordered is either derived from palm oil or vegetable oil. In retrospect, that may not have been a great one to order.

And also on Amazon, Essential Depot says it's derived from palm and contains no soy. Blah.

I need to find a VG that's coconut.

 

[puffon]

Essential Depot offers both Palm or Soy derived.
Soy Derived Vegetable Glycerin: Essential Depot
Good luck finding any VG that is not sweet.

 

[BrotherBob]

VG that's coconut

Could look at: Coconut oil-based VG allergy

 

[SteveS45]

I would hazard a guess that VG made from Coconut might be sweet versus the palm based. Just a thought though I only use Liquid Barn VG/PG and Nicotine.

 

[Rickb119]

Great! I had no idea it was either palm, soy, or coconut.

I need to find a VG that's coconut.

Here ya go. 100% Pure USP Vegetable Glycerin: Food Grade VG Liquid | Buy Vegetable Glycerin

Only recently (6 months?) have they added "(palm based)" to the description. Not sure why. Perhaps some people didn't realize that the coconut comes from a "palm tree". Who knows.

Anyhow, I've been using it for over 2 years mainly from a desire to avoid anything (I can) GMO. To date, there are no GMO coconuts. Doesn't mean the mad scientists won't come up with one at some point.

It's been so long since I've used anything else that I couldn't tell you if it's sweeter (or not) than any other VG.

If you decide that you like it, gallons are hiding in the wholesale section.

BTW, coconut oil (virgin, unrefined) is one of the healthiest foods you can eat.

 

[mcclintock]

Flavoring might just be too strong. I'm otherwise trying to figure how sweet can be horrible.

 

[amoret]

Flavoring might just be too strong. I'm otherwise trying to figure how sweet can be horrible.

There are some of us who just don't like sweet. My favorite is Earl Grey Tea, followed by a mint combination with no added sweetener, and a menthol tobacco. My few forays into "sweet" flavors have been to tangy fruits - cranberry/apple, black currant/raspberry, or to bread type bakery flavors. But I mostly just use those for an occasional change.

To me VG tastes sweet, too sweet, and does mute flavors. I'm usually mixing at 70/30 (PG/VG) or rarely at 60/40.

 

[Polaris]

ED and NOW VG has arrived, as has MTS, Bitter Wizard, Smooth, and EM. Some flavors are steeping with just VG, nic and flavoring. Then I will test the VGs and once I pick one (assuming there are taste differences to me) I will continue on with all the additives like I said in the OP and post results for everyone.

 

[WiSK]

I have a friend who has the same issue as you, he doesn't like the sweet aftertaste of VG. I have used 0.5% Bitter Wizard in recipes for him and it seems to do the trick. This was tested on 50-50 juice; you might have to increase the percentage of Bitter Wizard for your Max VG recipes.

However, don't go above 1.5% because the Bitter Wizard starts to have an aftertaste of its own.

 

[r77r7r]

Opinion on straight NOW VG please.