Doubts over the safety of NET E-liquids

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fabricator4

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Are there any SNUS studies out there yet?

Yeah, years ago:
Oral use of Swedish moist snuff (snus) and risk for c... [Lancet. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

In short, there's no increased risk of mouth or lung cancer, but approximately double the risk of pancreatic cancer. It's still far safer than smoking tobacco in this regards, plus it does not carry the risks of other lung and cardiopulmonary disease (emphysema, COPD etc). This is why snus is included in CASAA's campaign for harm reduction.
 

AttyPops

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Yeah, years ago:
Oral use of Swedish moist snuff (snus) and risk for c... [Lancet. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

In short, there's no increased risk of mouth or lung cancer, but approximately double the risk of pancreatic cancer. It's still far safer than smoking tobacco in this regards, plus it does not carry the risks of other lung and cardiopulmonary disease (emphysema, COPD etc). This is why snus is included in CASAA's campaign for harm reduction.

FYI - When I read that title I note the specific snus...Swedish snus. That's processed differently as I understand it...they go to lengths to remove some chemicals. So I'm not sure all snus is created equal.
 

fabricator4

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The ones that have been tested (Ahlusion and House of Liquid) contain no TSN.

I'd question that. It's proving difficult to eliminate nitrosamine from supposedly pure medical grade nicotine, and this is why it's still showing up in e-liquid and NRT products albeit in minuscule amounts. If someone produces a NET and it tests negative for nitrosamine, my response is "look again".

I might be wrong here, but it's hard to see how you could produce a NET and then selectively eliminate nitrosamine, and still have it taste anything like a NET. I seem to recall seeing some tests done on NETs, and nitrosamine was indeed found but in relative small amounts compared to tobacco. I made the personal choice at that time that it wasn't the direction I wanted to go in, even though the additional risks are minor.

If they've done tests and found nitrosamine in about the same levels as that found in NRT products, then I guess you could say that qualifies as being "safe" since they think that this level of exposure is not going to significantly increase your chances of disease. This is not the same as saying that there are NO nitrosamines in the product however.

When it comes to vaping, "safe" is a relative term not an absolute one, which is why we say "safer".
 

firephly

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I was glad to see the results of the study. It kind of looks like cinnamon might not be the hot tip either, if we really care about what we inhale.

I was thinking about that too, and I just ordered some cinnamon juice too and really looking forward to it! I wonder what was wrong with the cinnamon? I downloaded the whole study but was unable to open it...
 

fabricator4

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FYI - When I read that title I note the specific snus...Swedish snus. That's processed differently as I understand it...they go to lengths to remove some chemicals. So I'm not sure all snus is created equal.

I'm not sure, but they all seem to processed with a salt and an alkaline (sodium bicarb). Swedish snus *used* to be processed with corn starch as well but that was taken out because it was causing dental problems. Starch-->Sugars-->tooth decay.

You could also say that "Swedish" denotes the style and the processing, so there may be products made outside of Sweden being described as "Swedish" snus. That would not include Camel 'snus' which apparently is awful.

The reduction of nitrosamines in snus is as important to snus users as it is for vapers. Caveat Emptor.
 

Jerms

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I'd question that. It's proving difficult to eliminate nitrosamine from supposedly pure medical grade nicotine, and this is why it's still showing up in e-liquid and NRT products albeit in minuscule amounts. If someone produces a NET and it tests negative for nitrosamine, my response is "look again".

I might be wrong here, but it's hard to see how you could produce a NET and then selectively eliminate nitrosamine, and still have it taste anything like a NET. I seem to recall seeing some tests done on NETs, and nitrosamine was indeed found but in relative small amounts compared to tobacco. I made the personal choice at that time that it wasn't the direction I wanted to go in, even though the additional risks are minor.

If they've done tests and found nitrosamine in about the same levels as that found in NRT products, then I guess you could say that qualifies as being "safe" since they think that this level of exposure is not going to significantly increase your chances of disease. This is not the same as saying that there are NO nitrosamines in the product however.

When it comes to vaping, "safe" is a relative term not an absolute one, which is why we say "safer".

I really shouldn't speak about TSNA since my knowledge is very limited. It's not an area I've researched or know much about. But as far as the testing Ahlusion does, I don't know if they've published the results or where it could be found, here's what was posted on their site; at the end of which the claim is made that their extracts tested free of TSNA..

Taken from Ahlsuion's website Summary of changes and updates.

"Services:
Our GCMS (and MSDS) analysis options will be available to the public - if you need an analysis performed and certified, we can do so. Contact us for details. This service is mainly geared towards other vendors."

Also from Ahlusion's site What's different about your flavors?.

"...Similarly, our tobaccos do not include any artificial tobacco flavor notes (Tabanon/e) as found in some Perfumers Apprentice flavorings. Yet, many are simply used to this and prefer it better. I personally hate (stress) DK-Tab, M-Type and all the rest of them and also refuse to make eliquids for anyone with those - but that's beside the point. This is also a good time to explain the two types of tobaccos we currently offer: our flavored tobaccos and what we like to call aromatic tobaccos. All our tobaccos are based on organic tobacco extracts performed in-house through various methods to achieve the desired flavors. Our flavored tobaccos simply have other natural or organic flavorings, while the aromatic tobaccos tend to resemble various pipe blends, Burleys and so on. Another important point worth mentioning, is that our extracts are tested to be free of TSNA's and other harmful products/compounds generally found in traditional tobacco or cigarettes..."
 

AttyPops

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I fully admit it's a crap-shoot. I just hope I'm playing the odds correctly. I've tried the patch, gum, lozenges (and still use lozenges when I can't vape) so...hey it keeps me off the burning tobacco cigs.

This topic or some variant comes up once in a while and is usually quite a debate. Kudos to all here keeping it civil and real.

I wonder why the industry-supported certification excluded WTA's. Probably due to extra-addictive properties. Anyway, that's a bit OT from the NETs issue. Wonder about the deeming FDA regulations soon to come also. We'll see shortly. I suspect they will center on access and restriction of purchase more than things like juice content.
 

EleanorR

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Oh no, guess what? SUNSHINE is carcinogenic too!!!!!!! :ohmy: 8-o

OTOH, sunshine is also absolutely necessary for the synthesis of Vitamin D, which we humans must have in certain amounts or we get very very very seriously sick. (I know about this personally; I have to take 50,000 mg of RX'd Vitamin D every week.)


:cry: What's a poor human to do??

Oh, that's right: the poison is in the dose. Is vaping safe? IDK. Frequent sunbathing sure as heck isn't. Do I want to see more research on NETs and e-liquid generally? Heck yes -- but only if it's done honestly, responsibly, and with an eye to statistically significant amounts and increases in relative risks. Otherwise it's just noise, and a method for hoovering up grant money (usually from ANTZs).

As for Ahlusion's claims: I believe them, because I believe I know the measure of the man making the claim.
 
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Jerms

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Oh, that's right: the poison is in the dose. Is vaping safe? IDK. Frequent sunbathing sure as heck isn't. Do I want to see more research on NETs and e-liquid generally? Heck yes -- but only if it's done honestly, responsibly, and with an eye to statistically significant amounts and increases in relative risks. Otherwise it's just noise, and a method for hoovering up grant money (usually from ANTZs).

Very well written and great points El, especially this. The anti-vaping population will respond to ANY chemical that has the possibility to cause harm. They don't care if it actually WILL. If something is present that can potentially be harmful, but in practice isn't harmful in amounts enough to effect any vaper, it'll be up to us to make the distinction.

It already seems at this point most people think nicotine is in tobacco, tobacco is deadly, so nicotine is deadly; when this is just not true.
 

Mr.Mann

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Calling DVap. Calling Kurt. We could use some actual chemists' perspective.

I can't say I am too worried. Why not? Just cause. Even though I am not too worried, I posted several times that NET vendors need to post disclaimers on their products (for the ones that don't already), if for no other reason than to make sure that some random tester doesn't use an NET as somehow indicative of or a representative of all eliquid. Hell, one NET isn't even a representative of all NETs.
 
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ckquatt

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FYI - When I read that title I note the specific snus...Swedish snus. That's processed differently as I understand it...they go to lengths to remove some chemicals. So I'm not sure all snus is created equal.

You are correct. Swedish snus is steam pasteurized. Amerucan snus is as well I believe. But dip (skoal, Copenhagen, etc) is fermented tobacco. I've read that pasteurizing causes less of the bad stuff to come out in the tobacco. That's why as a general rule snus is a safer product than regular american dip.

Sent from somebodys phone I found using Tapatalk.
 

fabricator4

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I agree it would be good to get a professional interpretation especially about the likelyhood of WTAs and TSNs in NETs.


This topic or some variant comes up once in a while and is usually quite a debate. Kudos to all here keeping it civil and real.

Agreed. It's good to have valid discussion on the subject, I want as much information as I can. Funny really, I didn't give a s**t when I was smoking. :blink:
 
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Mr.Mann

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WTA in NETs is negligible at best.

WTA is whole tobacco alakoids. Nicotine is the dominant alkaloid, roughly 95% of WTA. The remaining 5% or thereabouts are the other alkaloids. So if you have an 18 mg WTA liquid (assuming it's WTA exclusive + solvent, i.e., PG and/or VG) there would be about 17.1 mg/mL nicotine and about .9 mg/mL minor alkaloids.

The average NET/soak carries with it about 2 mg/mL nicotine. Assuming that since that alkaloid, nicotine, came through the soak, if the other minor alkaloids came through with it they would still be in the same ratio (roughly 95/5, since it's the ratio in the tobacco it came from). So 5% of 2 mg would be literally next to nothing.

Alkaloids other than nicotine in NETs is really not a concern at all, and even the nic is barely there. I think the best words to describe the levels of minor alkaloids possibly in NETs would be "trace" or "negligible."
 
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Jerms

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WTA in NETs is negligible at best.

WTA is whole tobacco alakoids. Nicotine is the dominant alkaloid, roughly 95% of WTA. The remaining 5% or thereabouts are the other alkaloids. So if you have an 18 mg WTA liquid (assuming it's WTA exclusive + solvent, i.e., PG and/or VG) there would be about 17.1 mg/mL nicotine and about .9 mg/mL minor alkaloids.

The average NET/soak carries with it about 2 mg/mL nicotine. Assuming that since that alkaloid, nicotine, came through the soak, if the other minor alkaloids came through with it, they would still be in the same ratio (roughly 95/5, since it's the ratio in the tobacco it came from). So 5% of 2 mg would be literally next to nothing.

Alkaloids other than nicotine in NETs is really not a concern at all, and even the nic is barely there. I think the best words to describe the levels of minor alkaloids possibly in NETs would be "trace" or "negligible."

Great info Mann. I was pretty sure was the case with WTA in NET, but didn't want to add another "my guess is" in a discussion that should be more factual.

I can summarize my thoughts about the general possibilites of the danger of any liquid, whether NET, WTA, artificial, or naturally flavored is this.. my guess is it's mostly harmless. My fact is I'm not personally concerned at all, and vaping causes me zero anxieties. But I still want to see much more research done and am open to changing what I vape if further research shows it's a good idea.
 
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