Dow chemical refusing to supply Propylene Glycol to e-cigarette industry

[skoony]

looks like a standard liability disclaimer to me. Dow and or its parent company if they have one probably independently owns a supplier that freely sells to the e-cig industry. if thats not the case some one on the board owns a supply company. this way they can distance themselves from the industry,continue to sell their product and,limit liability. what i don't understand if one places an order for PG when is it standard practice to ask what your going to use it for?
regards
mike

 

[aubergine]

looks like a standard liability disclaimer to me. Dow and or its parent company if they have one probably independently owns a supplier that freely sells to the e-cig industry. if thats not the case some one on the board owns a supply company. this way they can distance themselves from the industry,continue to sell their product and,limit liability. what i don't understand if one places an order for PG when is it standard practice to ask what your going to use it for?
regards
mike

Again, it's more than a token disclaimer if they're refusing sales.
And we don't know if this is insurance driven or not. Or if other major chem companies supplying high quality pharmaceutical grade PG will follow suit.
It makes vendors vulnerable if their supply can be cut off upon discovery. And vendors are already about to become vulnerable on many counts.

I remember back in 2009, 2010, when the FDA was blocking shipments from China and vendors were running out of stock, losing large investments. The anti-ecig gang never quits and I put nothing past them.

I don't know if the same restrictions might be embraced by makers of VG. Seems far-fetched, but so does a lot of the insane crap coming down.

We'll see. Might come to nothing at all. But we've been saying, "Well the FDA can't regulate PG" - and here's an example of how that product could in fact be attacked.

And though I understand the basic instinct for individual survival, that "Won't affect me, I prefer VG (or am stocked up for years, or am happy to buy black market, etc.) really fails to even take notice of the much larger vaping community, present and potential, whose access to a product that might save their lives is under active attack.

 

[skoony]

Again, it's more than a token disclaimer if they're refusing sales.
And we don't know if this is insurance driven or not. Or if other major chem companies supplying high quality pharmaceutical grade PG will follow suit.
It makes vendors vulnerable if their supply can be cut off upon discovery. And vendors are already about to become vulnerable on many counts.

I remember back in 2009, 2010, when the FDA was blocking shipments from China and vendors were running out of stock, losing large investments. The anti-ecig gang never quits and I put nothing past them.

I don't know if the same restrictions might be embraced by makers of VG. Seems far-fetched, but so does a lot of the insane crap coming down.

We'll see. Might come to nothing at all. But we've been saying, "Well the FDA can't regulate PG" - and here's an example of how that product could in fact be attacked.

And though I understand the basic instinct for individual survival, that "Won't affect me, I prefer VG (or am stocked up for years, or am happy to buy black market, etc.) really fails to even take notice of the much larger vaping community, present and potential, whose access to a product that might save their lives is under active attack.

its interesting to note Sony claims to have ceased manufacture of its 18650 batteries because of unintended use by consumers. i doubt thats true. they have to many contractual commitments to fulfill one would think. if anythings happening these products are being moved far enough down the supply chain as to effectively isolate these companies from liability and,limit financial losses. there is about 2 years of good sales left to go if the hammer falls real hard.

regards
mike

 

[TamiP]

Again, it's more than a token disclaimer if they're refusing sales.
And we don't know if this is insurance driven or not. Or if other major chem companies supplying high quality pharmaceutical grade PG will follow suit.
It makes vendors vulnerable if their supply can be cut off upon discovery. And vendors are already about to become vulnerable on many counts.

I remember back in 2009, 2010, when the FDA was blocking shipments from China and vendors were running out of stock, losing large investments. The anti-ecig gang never quits and I put nothing past them.

I don't know if the same restrictions might be embraced by makers of VG. Seems far-fetched, but so does a lot of the insane crap coming down.

We'll see. Might come to nothing at all. But we've been saying, "Well the FDA can't regulate PG" - and here's an example of how that product could in fact be attacked.

And though I understand the basic instinct for individual survival, that "Won't affect me, I prefer VG (or am stocked up for years, or am happy to buy black market, etc.) really fails to even take notice of the much larger vaping community, present and potential, whose access to a product that might save their lives is under active attack.

I still fail to see how they could effectively stop the vaping industry from using their products. They MAY be able to stop them from buying directly from them, but how can they control the product from being sold through 2nd hand vendors such as auto supplies or wherever PG is sold? They simply can't without completely stopping the production of the product (not likely). In the post below someone said sony has said they stopped making the 18650... oh well, then there's panasonic, and if they stop there are still other options... that type of battery might be easier to stop producing than something like PG that has SO many outside uses other than ejuice. Even the batteries would be replaceable with another brand or mods would have to evolve to use a different type of rechargable battery. they would. I don't know what other products might use 18650s (I'm assuming there are other uses for them since they weren't created specifically to power mods), but if other products used them too, then I don't realistically see the discontinuation of that size battery either.

 

[aubergine]

Ya, it's going to be that long before we see the full effect of any of this stuff, including the FDA regs.
I'm old. Two years to me is the blink of an eye.

 

[Sarin]

PG is extensively used in making soap. I'm expecting everyone here to be super clean and smelling fresh

 

[iamthevoice]

Dow, although a large company, is not the world's only PG manufacturer...

 

[patkin]

No doubt China will jump on FDA-approved PG production. I mean Hangsen and Dekang alone create enough demand but taking over Dow's market... yeh, they'll do it. So USA BT will have to go to the Chinese to produce their non-refillable cartridges? Too funny.... protecting America's health and all that.

 

[NC_Fog]

PG and 18650's are the least of my worries. Nicotine on the other hand...

 

[TamiP]

PG and 18650's are the least of my worries. Nicotine on the other hand...

I have two years's supply of nic base, plus if it really does end up being totally banned, I'll probably rush to get a few more year's worth. That sounds like so much, but it really isn't. I'll gladly give up a little more space in my freezer for the assurance I won't run out any time soon. Will it eventually run out? Yeah, but that is plenty of time to cut down on nic gradually and still be able to vape 0 nic at that time. I'd prefer to be free to continue using nic based juices at my discretion, but I'm not personally worried about it. I just think it's wrong, and I feel bad for the new vapors who don't have the setups to do that, as well as those that can't, or don't want to DIY. My son dislikes DIYing, and prefers to buy his choice of ejuices. That's great for now, but if the ban causes widespread shut downs... he's going to have to learn fast. If you're wondering why I don't say get me to make it for him, it's not that I wouldn't, it's that I don't want to deal with his pickiness. He would need to make it himself. LOL

 

[Kent C]

I'm not going to look it up but I'm pretty sure Dow did (or had done) tests on inhalation of PG and VG for their factory workers in 1947 and subsequent years and found no harmful effects.

 

[aikanae1]

I believe the minnesota vapers website show recent testing approving pg for use in hairspray that the FDA accepted for other industries also.

But my hunch is these stories should be followed up on to discover if there is more going on. I wouldn't be surprised if there' an email etc. which show the statement came as the bequest of some agency. Maybe it's time to figure out FOIA requests. I don't think Dow only supplies PG, but tobacco companies use a myraid of other products peg400 and some cigalikes use PG only. I wonder if Dow still supplies them? Dow is big. There could be nothing else to see.

 

[DC2]

Subscribing....

 

[DC2]

And anything over 30% VG stuffs up my sinuses and makes me wheeze a bit at night.
And then I'm blowing my nose for an hour or so the next morning.

Screw that.

 

[StefanDidak]

As the OP of the tweet, which contained the screenshot made public by Justin, I can't monitor every thread on this particular subject seeing as they are going on in multiple places. Rest assured, this is being looked into and followed up on. Alas, not at the pace and intensity I would personally like to see because there are just too many other things that require my attention on a daily basis. Part of putting out the tweet, along with the question if any other vendors have run into PG supply issues, is so we could get a better/wider view since our preliminary information was solid enough to start asking around without possibly wasting time while operating on nothing more than a rumor.

In some other communities there's a few folks questioning the validity of this and even some veiled accusations of us trying to "stir up" a rumor. If that was the case we would have done the "stirring" over 4 weeks ago when we first learned of this and started asking questions within our own circles and connections. Also note, just for the record, this is Justin and myself looking into this, individually, in our respective circles and communities and is, so far, not connected with or directed from/by SFATA. And you can bet that this will be discussed and investigated even further once we get some additional information gathered. For which, I certainly would hope, others will be kind enough to lend a helping hand.

A few bullet point updates to keep this in perspective;

- I don't think any of us is concerned about PG supply lines as there are many sources of PG

- It currently looks like 3 of the big PG suppliers have halted sales to customers if/when it is known that the purpose of the PG is for use of manufacturing e-liquid.

- Some helpful community members have been contacting Dow. They say they are backlogged so no direct responses have gone out through them.

- According to information from Justin, Monument Chemical, another manufacturer of PG, is requiring a $100 million indemnification coverage (for insurance/liability purposes) per order.

- Executives of Dow, Shell, and PTT also hold board positions with GSK, makers of Nicorette.

Cheers,
Stefan.

 

[rothenbj]

There is a .... pile of money to be made supplying PG for eCigs if Dow Chemical and others won't do it, and it remains legal to do so. Worst case, we move to VG and distilled water. Best case, a few up and comers swallow that corner of the market with a focus on PG specifically for eCigs.

Maybe Dow shouldn't be in the PG for eCig business anyhow. They should stick to things they know like running the Army's Edgewood Chemical Weapons Arsenal.

The arsenal is still in existence? I always found that a bit crazy. An arsenal filled with canisters of deadly gas so close to Washington. I always had this queasy feeling driving in there hoping all the pigeons were moving around in their cages. That took me back. I spend a year or so between APG and Edgewood in the early 70s Army days. Never expected it would still be there 40 some years later.

 

[rothenbj]

I still fail to see how they could effectively stop the vaping industry from using their products. They MAY be able to stop them from buying directly from them, but how can they control the product from being sold through 2nd hand vendors such as auto supplies or wherever PG is sold? They simply can't without completely stopping the production of the product (not likely). In the post below someone said sony has said they stopped making the 18650... oh well, then there's panasonic, and if they stop there are still other options... that type of battery might be easier to stop producing than something like PG that has SO many outside uses other than ejuice. Even the batteries would be replaceable with another brand or mods would have to evolve to use a different type of rechargable battery. they would. I don't know what other products might use 18650s (I'm assuming there are other uses for them since they weren't created specifically to power mods), but if other products used them too, then I don't realistically see the discontinuation of that size battery either.

I've got some great LED flashlights that use the 18650s. They work great and last a long time before needing a recharge.

 

[sonicdsl]

<...>

- Executives of Dow, Shell, and PTT also hold board positions with GSK, makers of Nicorette.

Cheers,
Stefan.

And there's the big clue!

 

[pamdis]

As the OP of the tweet, which contained the screenshot made public by Justin, I can't monitor every thread on this particular subject seeing as they are going on in multiple places. Rest assured, this is being looked into and followed up on. Alas, not at the pace and intensity I would personally like to see because there are just too many other things that require my attention on a daily basis. Part of putting out the tweet, along with the question if any other vendors have run into PG supply issues, is so we could get a better/wider view since our preliminary information was solid enough to start asking around without possibly wasting time while operating on nothing more than a rumor.

In some other communities there's a few folks questioning the validity of this and even some veiled accusations of us trying to "stir up" a rumor. If that was the case we would have done the "stirring" over 4 weeks ago when we first learned of this and started asking questions within our own circles and connections. Also note, just for the record, this is Justin and myself looking into this, individually, in our respective circles and communities and is, so far, not connected with or directed from/by SFATA. And you can bet that this will be discussed and investigated even further once we get some additional information gathered. For which, I certainly would hope, others will be kind enough to lend a helping hand.

A few bullet point updates to keep this in perspective;

- I don't think any of us is concerned about PG supply lines as there are many sources of PG

- It currently looks like 3 of the big PG suppliers have halted sales to customers if/when it is known that the purpose of the PG is for use of manufacturing e-liquid.

- Some helpful community members have been contacting Dow. They say they are backlogged so no direct responses have gone out through them.

- According to information from Justin, Monument Chemical, another manufacturer of PG, is requiring a $100 million indemnification coverage (for insurance/liability purposes) per order.

- Executives of Dow, Shell, and PTT also hold board positions with GSK, makers of Nicorette.

Cheers,
Stefan.

Another way to squeeze out the little guy, but still keep your major sales to your big customers. I'm probably way to cynical by now, but would not be surprised to find that some BT execs are also on the PG maker's boards (or vice versa), and that this was done at BT's request.

 

[pamdis]

Well, I guess my cynicism is justified. Just saw this link from a 1999 article that someone posted on FB, where the same issue is being discussed:

Big Tobacco Keeps Thumb on Makers of Stop-Smoking Aids - Page 2 - Los Angeles Times

The pressure point: a long-standing, multimillion-dollar customer relationship between cigarette makers, including Philip Morris, and Merrell Dow's corporate parent, Dow Chemical, which sold tobacco companies the chemical humectants they use to keep tobacco moist.

But I imagine that BP can also pressure PG makers as well, as it's in so many of their products too.