Dow chemical refusing to supply Propylene Glycol to e-cigarette industry

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TamiP

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The reason I flagged this up in the OP was to raise the supply chain issue.

Does anyone have any idea how much PG is produced nationally, how easy it is to produce (it's refined from petroleum products), what the alternative supply chains are capable of producing? Whether VG supplies take take up any slack?

I've spoken with a manufacturer who believes this policy was enacted around 6 months ago, but feels that this is them pushing harder. Apologies if I've caused undue concern, but there are fault lines in the supply chain, and it's worth discussing them openly.

While I don't personally think this particular issue will be of real concern, I agree with you that it is worth discussing.

Since we are under attack, ALL instances are worth discussing. No one actually knows what the future holds, and which sides of the argument will be the truth. we can just discuss all beliefs, both sides. It wouldn't be normal for everyone to feel like this is a dreadful portence to the truth, and it wouldn't be healthy if no one took any notice of it until it was too late.
 

StefanDidak

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I've spoken with a manufacturer who believes this policy was enacted around 6 months ago, but feels that this is them pushing harder. Apologies if I've caused undue concern, but there are fault lines in the supply chain, and it's worth discussing them openly.

Still working on this, or rather Justin is, diligently so.

Monument will sell to the vapor and tobacco industry but only with a $100m (per order!) liability coverage.

Currently the ones that appear to not sell are Dow, Shell, Univar, Nexeo, and Lyondell Basell.

There was one who would sell but not for the purposes of e-liquid but was ok on the fog-machine purpose.

There was also one who didn’t accept the fog-machine purpose, citing, “no vaporizing” purposes.

Lots of big distributors check credentials based on credit cards. If discovered by your company name or other records that you are in this industry and thus the PG will be used for obvious reasons, you can’t just get away by telling them you’ve got a different purpose in mind. What is is starting to look like is that big manufacturers are forbidding big distributors from selling based on policies that are not entirely clear (except for Dow, perhaps). I can only suspect that liability concerns are part of what’s going on. It also means that the supply chain on PG is very well controlled in this fashion.

Other big manufacturers (not saying whether they sell or don’t, yet) include BASF, Nippon Shokubai, Eastman, Advance, and Yida.

I don’t think there is a reason to panic at this point and I’m sure DIY supplies are available in plenty supply. However, if the big manufacturers are telling big distributors not to sell and check into their pre-sales, etc. then eventually this may become a problem. After all, the smaller volumes in gallons and liters all come from some distributor that got it from a bigger one who got it from maybe another bigger one who got it from a manufacturer. Not all chains have 3 or more parts so that may very well vary a lot.
 

Kent C

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The reason I flagged this up in the OP was to raise the supply chain issue.

Does anyone have any idea how much PG is produced nationally, how easy it is to produce (it's refined from petroleum products), what the alternative supply chains are capable of producing? Whether VG supplies take take up any slack?

I've spoken with a manufacturer who believes this policy was enacted around 6 months ago, but feels that this is them pushing harder. Apologies if I've caused undue concern, but there are fault lines in the supply chain, and it's worth discussing them openly.

Some info.... not exactly what you might want....

Propylene glycol (PG) is manufactured from propylene oxide, a petroleum-based raw material. As the leading global producer of PG, Dow manufactures approximately 1.2 billion pounds annually.
About Propylene Glycols | Dow Propylene Glycols

The Dow Chemical Company is the major global producer of propylene glycols. Dow’s
2010 estimated annual production capacity was 760,000 metric tons (1.7 billion pounds).
http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ctsafety/pdfs/noreg/233-00248&fromPage=GetDoc


The demand for, and consumption of, mono propylene glycol is high with an estimated 1.2 million tonnes produced yearly by plants situated around the world.
Mono Propylene Glycol | MPG supplier | Solventis

Propylene glycol is a major commodity chemical with an annual production of over 1 billion pounds in the United States (2004)
Hydrogenolysis of Glycerol to Propylene Glycol

Also: (in the introduction)

http://www.epa.ohio.gov/portals/41/p2/wasteglycerol.pdf

This last line 'over 1 billion pounds in the US' is quoted in many articles from a marketing report that costs to view..... :)
 

aubergine

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Among the rumors that often need to be dispelled are also rumors that something is just a rumor. :)

The worst effect of paying attention to all of the various ways in which the industry can be severely disrupted (and thus individual vapers, including DIYers and those who expect to rely on a black market) is panic - that's really never useful. But I think that a lot more people need to be aware that there really is a very dedicated, determined and now-experienced opposition, with money and clout in high places, who are looking for (and may well find) vulnerabilities at every product point.

Panic is never useful, nor apocalyptic fear-mongering, but those who are sanguine that a really lively black market is a certainty might wonder what that'd be like if quality nicotine and glycol were sharply restricted and manufacturers of the quality delivery systems that we now enjoy had only that market upon which to rely -
and always, what that would mean for the millions of smokers who'd be denied a simple, low-risk and approved way to save their lives.

Not saying that's the way it'll go (I'm actually more hopeful than a lot of people in the know in here, perhaps by temperament), but at this point it's really not some sort of dark fear-mongering to pay serious attention to what's actually going down. Mission creep.
 
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StefanDidak

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It's an unfortunate situation that so many are confident in relying on a black market future that at this point only exists in their minds and wishes. I always ask vendors how consumer driven they are and whether they want their customers to drive them into a future where they would need to sell their products from the trunk of their car. Strangely enough, I have yet to encounter a single vendor who expresses and interest or any excitement at the thought of such a future.
 

Kent C

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Among the rumors that often need to be dispelled are also rumors that something is just a rumor. :)

The worst effect of paying attention to all of the various ways in which the industry can be severely disrupted (and thus individual vapers, including DIYers and those who expect to rely on a black market) is panic - that's really never useful. But I think that a lot more people need to be aware that there really is a very dedicated, determined and now-experienced opposition, with money and clout in high places, who are looking for (and may well find) vulnerabilities at every product point.

Panic is never useful, nor apocalyptic fear-mongering, but those who are sanguine that a really lively black market is a certainty might wonder what that'd be like if quality nicotine and glycol were sharply restricted and manufacturers of the quality delivery systems that we now enjoy had only that market upon which to rely -
and always, what that would mean for the millions of smokers who'd be denied a simple, low-risk and approved way to save their lives.

Not saying that's the way it'll go (I'm actually more hopeful than a lot of people in the know in here, perhaps by temperament), but at this point it's really not some sort of dark fear-mongering to pay serious attention to what's actually going down. Mission creep.

That's a nice "high minded" view. Too bad you weren't around for the English in Shanghai or the Jews in Germany or the Cambodians in Khamer Rouge. Some of the people like Bill G, for example and Siegel and Carl Phillips that predict a black market aren't in a panic, nor am I for example, since I've already prepared. If one is already prepared there is no need for panic, but to inform others of possible outcomes rather than thinking everything will remain in the status quo isn't as 'fear mongering' as you seem to make it. Perhaps you might cite exactly who it is, of whom your smearing or "rumoring" about.... there are many who have mentioned the black market in various posts.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...turn-black-market-added-ecf.html#post13698630
 
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aubergine

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That's a nice "high minded" view. Too bad you weren't around for the English in Shanghai or the Jews in Germany or the Cambodians in Khamer Rouge. Some of the people like Bill G, for example and Siegel and Carl Phillips that predict a black market aren't in a panic, nor am I for example, since I've already prepared. If one is already prepared there is no need for panic, but to inform others of possible outcomes rather than thinking everything will remain in the status quo isn't as 'fear mongering' as you seem to make it. Perhaps you might cite exactly who it is, of whom your smearing or "rumoring" about.... there are many who have mentioned the black market in various posts.

What??
I'm trying to see what in that post of mine seems "high minded". Or anything about "smears" at all.

You've read what I said precisely backwards

I was talking about the (understandable) inclination to discount information like the self-imposed restriction on PG sales by major chemical companies as "rumors", as there's been some discussion about whether or not they really are true, or if it would matter. That would be "the rumor that it's a rumor". My point was simply that we shouldn't be complacent, as they are apparently true, and seem to me to be real threats.
The phrase about "panicking" was in response to a preceding post that noted that we need not panic, but that a number of specific chem companies may truly be cracking down. I was agreeing that we needn't panic, but that we oughtn't take it too lightly either.
I certainly wasn't maligning anybody at all.
You seem to have completely misread my post. I was saying that we SHOULD be aware of and inform others of possible outcomes, and that that isn't fear mongering. Not a particularly profound point, and kind of obvious, but jeez, exactly the opposite of what you seem to think I was saying.
And I don't know if there will be a thriving black market or not - I was suggesting that that option (which is one that I would hope to turn to) would be considerably more difficult to maintain if access to quality products - like high grade PG -is effectively blocked.

I honestly can't parse how you concluded that I'm ignorant of genocidal events, or how that ties in. You seem to be saying that I'm underestimating a clear danger and urging "status quo", but my point was exactly the opposite.

Maybe read it again?

(We disagree on some things, but I think we agree here, actually. We often do, in fact.)

edit: I'm still trying to figure out how this rubbed you the wrong way so intensely. Maybe the part where I say that I'm more hopeful than some. I read these threads and every link I can wade through and have for some time, and I know how dire things are. I can't keep writing letters and functioning in opposition if I don't have some hope that we can beat it. That's what that's about.
 
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Kent C

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I'm trying to see what in that post of mine seems "high minded". Or anything about "smears" at all.


"those who expect to rely on a black market) is panic - that's really never useful." Who here, exactly?

"But I think that a lot more people need to be aware that...." blah, blah.... Who here, needs to be aware? not you evidently.

"Panic is never useful, nor apocalyptic fear-mongering, but those who are sanguine that a really lively black market is a certainty...." Who here is sanguine that a black market is a certainty? Bill? Smokey?

"(I'm actually more hopeful than a lot of people in the know in here, perhaps by temperament)" More hopeful than who exactly?

I'm so glad you are more 'hopeful' than those people....

-----

Get the picture yet? Maybe you don't realize you do that. If so, never mind.
 

Kent C

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I honestly can't parse how you concluded that I'm ignorant of genocidal events, or how that ties in. You seem to be saying that I'm underestimating a clear danger, but my point was the opposite.

It's the 'panic is never useful' comment and while a chaotic exit doesn't help. A sense of urgency prior to the events would be. I suppose there are degrees of panic but sometimes some should be panicked about certain developments. As far as the black market developing 'bad' eliquid, that hasn't been the case in this unregulated market, which is what the black market is (ie unregulated by gov't) but not unregulated by consumers. The consumers like us will still drive it like we have here. Unlike prohibition, social media will get information widely spread.
 

aubergine

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Kent, you're grasping at straws and really twisting my words, and my meaning; it's a personal vendetta at this point.

I don't like to be misrepresented like that but I'm not going to give you any more line by line responses.

Except to say that no, of course I wasn't referring to Bill, or Smokey - those are among the persons who I respect most in this forum and in fact I've agreed with Smokey in this thread throughout. It's been a civil discussion. I was actually thinking of vendors and forum members who might underestimate the gravity of the situation. That's been widely discussed; I wasn't being self-righteous or finger pointing at anyone, nor do I want to. And I sure wasn't even indirectly smearing ANYBODY, and I don't think that anyone else reading that post would take it that way, or think that I was.

Or think that I was making some sort of condescending dig at "those people" - we're all in this together, trying to figure out what the hell is going to happen and how best to prepare for it.

And if anyone disagrees and thinks that the black market wouldn't be disrupted by heavy restriction in various supplies, or that that will happen, or with anything else I said, they might be right - I was worrying, not declaring some sort of stark position in that post. It's a discussion, not a fight.

Stuff like this,
""But I think that a lot more people need to be aware that...." blah, blah.... Who here, needs to be aware? not you evidently."
is just personal attack.
Again, please stop it.
 
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Kent C

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114211894.jpg
 

DaveP

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Either the 1940s test was in error or a bunch of lab rats lived in a PG fog environment for two years and emerged with better health, pink organs, finer and healthier fur, and slightly greater body weight than their control group counterparts who lived in plain old laboratory air. It all kind of makes you wonder who's preaching what with ecigs. We all know that there's been at least 5 years of testing going on with ECF members who go to their doctors for blood work periodically. That's the first place that problems would show up.

I wonder where big tobacco gets their fog. Naturally, they won't list the ingredients on the package.

TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION
 

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