Dr Farsalinos crowfunding campaign and research
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It's "research" and could uncover a multitude of specifics and unknowns; good, bad, unclear and so on; there is no "EXACTLY" - simply goals: "Scientific research for the detection of potentially harmful ingredients in e-cigarette liquids. Examining the extent of the problem and providing the solution."
So ----- Not certain if this will do it for you - but it's a good place to begin (the source). Go read:
Electronic cigarette liquids analysis-evaluating potentially harmful ingredients | Indiegogo
Senile Old Man Don
NAP TIME!
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You are doing our community a great service! I would, personally, like to thank you for that. Keep up the great work! I'm sure that the workload is often times overwhelming...the fund raising, the details required to simply organize the myriad minutiae of information necessary to set up research like this, the time and energy involved...so, from a small faction of this community, I applauded you...
Thank You Dr. Farsalinos and your research assistants!
Thank You Dr. Farsalinos and your research assistants!
My heartfelt thanks go out to you Dr. Farsalinos. It is a great comfort knowing we have an advocate in our corner researching and providing us with scientific facts and evidence. I will be looking forward to your findings.
Does anyone have any idea of the status of this? It seems like he could have had several vendors samples by now. Did he ever give an idea of when we could expect some results?
Oh thank you for the tips! I will definitely check him out and check out his research. That is very cool what he is doing.
And no I don't believe we have met! I'm glad to be here thanks for the warm welcome!
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An important new study was published yesterday by Dr Farsalinos and his team, comparing blood nicotine concentrations from cigalikes versus the Evic in experienced e-cig users. It is summarized here (also contains link to full version of the paper).
I expected higher nicotine absorption from the EVIC with 18 mg/ml at 9 watts. What do you think?
Would anyone like to suggest an alternative, widely available e-cig model that could acheive higher blood nicotine levels?
I expected higher nicotine absorption from the EVIC with 18 mg/ml at 9 watts. What do you think?
Would anyone like to suggest an alternative, widely available e-cig model that could acheive higher blood nicotine levels?
A rebuildable dripper on a mechanical mod will do that (or even on a regulated mod). Most people lower their nic level when they start rebuilding but it's not such a straight forward thing for a lab because a lot of it depends on build design. The microcoil thread has a thousand pages of build discussion and they're running them on all kinds of mods.
Might you have misread the findings?
The absorption from the Evic was about twice that of the cigalike. I'm actually a bit surprised by that. However, nothing was said about what type of topper was used on each device, which may provide a little more insight into the results.
That being said, one APV over another will not yield you a a noticeable difference in nicotine uptake. If that's what you're after you may want to look into what you use on top of your APV, you will get better results there.
I think that the nicotine delivery system (EVOD, cartomizer, drip atomizer) have more to do with how well the battery heats up the coil than the battery type itself. Maybe look into different juice delivery systems?
EDIT: All the battery has to do is to generate enough volts to heat up a coil, the juice is vaporized and then it travels into the vaper's mouth carrying the nicotine into the body. Any thoughts?
Of course it can also mean that the nicotine is not what had us "addicted" to the cigarettes but all the other crap in them. I totally stopped smoking 2 years ago and am down to 6mg nicotine to 0mg sometimes. I continue to vape because I love the flavors. It's like snacking all day long without the calories.
EDIT: All the battery has to do is to generate enough volts to heat up a coil, the juice is vaporized and then it travels into the vaper's mouth carrying the nicotine into the body. Any thoughts?
Of course it can also mean that the nicotine is not what had us "addicted" to the cigarettes but all the other crap in them. I totally stopped smoking 2 years ago and am down to 6mg nicotine to 0mg sometimes. I continue to vape because I love the flavors. It's like snacking all day long without the calories.
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Dr. Farsalinos discusses his study starting at 23:59 in this audio, VapeTeam Live replay - 2/26/2014 - Dark Day in Europe .
I can't recall if he mentioned the oHms but the V2 was used with a cartomizer and the Evic was set at 9 watts topped with an Evod.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by one APV not producing more nicotine uptake than another. Higher power PVs are capable of producing larger quantities of vapor which contain more total nic per individual pull.
My point was that the EVIC produced a blood nicotine concentration of just over 4 ng/ml in 5 minutes, whereas a cigarette can easily produce 15 ng/ml or more in the same time. I thought the EVIC would deliver more "cigarette-like" blood nicotine levels and was wondering if anyone believes they know of an ecig that will produce higher blood nicotine levels quickly...like a cigarette?
There are a lot of unknown variables here, but additional to that point are the two following factors:
1. The only way to reliably reproduce equivalent plasma nicotine levels is to use 45mg strength refills.
This is a 'cigarette equivalent' if that is what is needed. In other words, if you want to vape for a 5 or 10 minute session as you would have done with a cigarette, then this sort of refill strength range is needed. However, this strength of refill, in efficient equipment and/or used by a non-naive user, will produce symptoms of over-consumption, although this will not be visible from the plasma nic level observed (see below).
It is extremely unlikely that levels approaching the historic plasma nic measurements of c. 50ng could ever be achieved in vaping as the physical effect seems comparatively stronger. A 50ng level in a vaper would probably be a hospital case (and therefore almost impossible to achieve), but this level was apparently common in smokers in the days of full-strength cigarettes; 60ng was reported to have been seen.
2. It is not necessary to reach the same plasma nicotine level with vaping in order to experience exactly the same effect as smoking.
A directly equivalent 'satisfaction level' will be experienced with an approximately 40% lower plasma nic level than the subject achieves with a cigarette. No one has either noted this effect (published any mention of it) or explained it, as yet.
For example an experienced vaper will tell you that lower plasma nic measurements "cannot be right", and description of a much slower nic delivery effect from ecigs "cannot be right", because "I know as soon as I inhale that I'm getting the same nic rush as I did from a cigarette". This is what we repeatedly hear when we say that plasma nic levels cannot be seen to rise significantly for some time.
This leads to a possibility that there is some difference in the mechanism or effect of pure nicotine delivered by an ecig vs the nicotine cocktail delivered in smoke. The pure alkaloid appears to have a far stronger effect. This is entirely counter-intuitive in two ways:
- We know that PG lock-in occurs and reduces the bioavailability of nicotine - the excipient reduces the usable amount.
Tobacco engineering tells us that the more PG is added to the mix, the less nicotine is bioavailable; nicotine in PG/glycerine can be left on the skin far longer than pure nicotine if spilled, and some can spill high-strength e-liquid on the skin with no apparent effect.
- We know that tobacco smoke is carefully engineered for maximum effect, with multiple synergens etc.
The nicotine is freebased, and delivered along with other alkaloids and MAOIs.
There are multiple unexplained issues here.
To get a direct cigarette equivalency, the highest retail strength of nicotine is needed - 45mg - as this is what it's for. But a direct equivalency is not required in any case, as explained above.
It may also be necessary to recognise the factor-10 difference in tolerance to nicotine that is well-demonstrated here on ECF but cannot be found in any medical literature: some individuals vape 6mg and cannot vape 12mg strength without OD symptoms; some vape 60mg with absolutely no signs of OD and will relapse to smoking without it. Two individuals at different ends of the scale will totally wreck any comparatives you are trying to apply.
Rules as such are rather difficult to apply to ecig use, it's a subject that is virtually impossible to make rules for. This is not a medicine; the hardware varies in efficiency by a factor of 8 or so (see Goniewicz' tests of nic-to-vapour conversion efficiency); the refills in actual use vary in strength by a factor of 10 (0.6% to 6%); and the users' tolerance to the alkaloid varies by a factor of 10. Straightaway there you have nearly three orders of magnitude between possible results if you multiply the variables out. Try making rules for that
1. The only way to reliably reproduce equivalent plasma nicotine levels is to use 45mg strength refills.
This is a 'cigarette equivalent' if that is what is needed. In other words, if you want to vape for a 5 or 10 minute session as you would have done with a cigarette, then this sort of refill strength range is needed. However, this strength of refill, in efficient equipment and/or used by a non-naive user, will produce symptoms of over-consumption, although this will not be visible from the plasma nic level observed (see below).
It is extremely unlikely that levels approaching the historic plasma nic measurements of c. 50ng could ever be achieved in vaping as the physical effect seems comparatively stronger. A 50ng level in a vaper would probably be a hospital case (and therefore almost impossible to achieve), but this level was apparently common in smokers in the days of full-strength cigarettes; 60ng was reported to have been seen.
2. It is not necessary to reach the same plasma nicotine level with vaping in order to experience exactly the same effect as smoking.
A directly equivalent 'satisfaction level' will be experienced with an approximately 40% lower plasma nic level than the subject achieves with a cigarette. No one has either noted this effect (published any mention of it) or explained it, as yet.
For example an experienced vaper will tell you that lower plasma nic measurements "cannot be right", and description of a much slower nic delivery effect from ecigs "cannot be right", because "I know as soon as I inhale that I'm getting the same nic rush as I did from a cigarette". This is what we repeatedly hear when we say that plasma nic levels cannot be seen to rise significantly for some time.
This leads to a possibility that there is some difference in the mechanism or effect of pure nicotine delivered by an ecig vs the nicotine cocktail delivered in smoke. The pure alkaloid appears to have a far stronger effect. This is entirely counter-intuitive in two ways:
- We know that PG lock-in occurs and reduces the bioavailability of nicotine - the excipient reduces the usable amount.
Tobacco engineering tells us that the more PG is added to the mix, the less nicotine is bioavailable; nicotine in PG/glycerine can be left on the skin far longer than pure nicotine if spilled, and some can spill high-strength e-liquid on the skin with no apparent effect.
- We know that tobacco smoke is carefully engineered for maximum effect, with multiple synergens etc.
The nicotine is freebased, and delivered along with other alkaloids and MAOIs.
There are multiple unexplained issues here.
To get a direct cigarette equivalency, the highest retail strength of nicotine is needed - 45mg - as this is what it's for. But a direct equivalency is not required in any case, as explained above.
It may also be necessary to recognise the factor-10 difference in tolerance to nicotine that is well-demonstrated here on ECF but cannot be found in any medical literature: some individuals vape 6mg and cannot vape 12mg strength without OD symptoms; some vape 60mg with absolutely no signs of OD and will relapse to smoking without it. Two individuals at different ends of the scale will totally wreck any comparatives you are trying to apply.
Rules as such are rather difficult to apply to ecig use, it's a subject that is virtually impossible to make rules for. This is not a medicine; the hardware varies in efficiency by a factor of 8 or so (see Goniewicz' tests of nic-to-vapour conversion efficiency); the refills in actual use vary in strength by a factor of 10 (0.6% to 6%); and the users' tolerance to the alkaloid varies by a factor of 10. Straightaway there you have nearly three orders of magnitude between possible results if you multiply the variables out. Try making rules for that
I believe you may be mistaken (a) that 45 mg/ml nic concentration juice is required to acheive blood nicotine levels like a cigarette and (b) that PG reduces bioavailable nicotine (as compared with VG). However I agree with you there are numerous variables involved. Lab studies and vapers' subjective effects are influenced by prior learning and expectations (what psychologists refer to as "conditioning", as in Pavlovs dogs). Ultimately we will require a series of lab studies that manipulate the variables systematically and measure blood nicotine levels, in order to answer my question.
Looking back through hard data on vapers' (personal) plasma nic tests, I can't find one that goes over 20ng. Values of 15ng - 18ng are achieved by using 36mg refills in high-power hardware such as APVs. Historically, such plasma nic levels in smokers would have been regarded as low. Today they are apparently about average for smokers as we read of smoker tests reading at 12 - 25ng, in contrast with double that in the past. Would you agree? (I haven't seen any *recent* smoking measurements over 30ng although *historic* ones are up to double this.)
A plasma nic level of 18ng in a vaper is at the very highest end of the scale, according to reports here on ECF from vapers' tests with their local clinic. It would be far more common to see 8ng. A vaper at 18ng got there using 36mg refills in a high-power device or by vaping a lower strength for an extended period.
Nevertheless this does not indicate any less of an effect than a smoker achieves with a 25 or 30ng level: because (a) vapers' plasma nic levels are always considerably lower for the same effect, and (b) we know that the individual's tolerance to nicotine varies by a factor of 10, therefore a single individual's result is meaningless - we need measurements from several individuals using exactly the same gear before any attempt at the meaning of the result can be made.
We sometimes hear that average strength refills such as 18mg can produce a 'good result' in a short time (i.e. a few minutes, as with say a couple of cigarettes) - but where is the evidence for this? Where are the records of elevated plasma nic levels with a refill strength this low? No doubt 5ng or perhaps 10ng can be achieved, and perhaps more easily if the individual has a low tolerance to nicotine. Short-term readings of 15ng or higher seem to be exclusively with 36mg strength refills. However I welcome any new evidence that low-strength refills can produce rapid elevated plasma nic levels in vapers.
The benchmark ecig now is a mid-size unit (aka an eGo) with a clearo (that is to say, any kind of clear tank arrangement, of which there are hundreds). If you work with ten experienced vapers using this hardware and an 18mg refill (which is generally termed average although I'd call it average-low, since it is less than half the strength of a realistic-strength refill), then you might get results ranging from 3 or 4ng to 10 or perhaps even 12ng plasma nic measurement in the short term (say under 30 minutes), and perhaps an average around 6 or 8ng. No doubt it can be elevated to 18ng or so with time.
If you want to see a cigarette-like result then you need to use 36mg or 45mg refills as that is what they are for: a few puffs and the job is done. However, I feel there is some confusion here: an EV (electronic vapouriser) or ecig isn't a cigarette and doesn't act like one in any measurable way. We already know that vapers get exactly the same satisfaction from a slightly slower and very much lower plasma nic elevation in the EV compared to a cigarette. Apparently, there are few who actually want a very fast and hard hit (i.e. rapid plasma nic elevation and to a comparably high level) as a cigarette, otherwise people would be queuing up for 36 and 45mg refills - and they're not. We can measure the delivered nicotine level and it is always much lower than for smoking, *but it gets the same result*.
Another thing: if you take a smoker and measure their plasma nic level at say 20 or 25ng; then next day (from a near baseline level) have them vape hard with a 36 or 45mg refill and get up to the same level, then they will be experiencing significant symptoms of nicotine OD. The two things are not the same.
No amount of assuming that nicotine delivered by a cigarette and an EV are identical will make it so. The pure nic delivered by an EV is far more powerful - a plasma nic level of about 40% less does exactly the same job.
Of course, this is all anecdotal as it depends on the veracity of the reports here. Until this kind of research is carried out, anecdotal is all we've got. Some of the measurements we need are:
- Compare plasma nic results obtained with 18mg refills to 45mg refills. How many puffs and how long to max level. (Intellicig have done this but didn't publish the full results.)
- Compare plasma levels using 18ng, using subjects who have low and high tolerance to nicotine. This will tell you how this factor affects the plasma nic level. Caution: some subjects cannot tolerate over 6mg refills when using efficient gear.
- Measure the peak plasma level after ad lib vaping with their personal choice of hardware and refills, for subjects who have extremely low tolerance to nicotine (those who vape 6mg and cannot tolerate 12mg). This will tell us the peak satisfaction level for someone with very low tolerance to nicotine (it varies tenfold).
- Measure the peak plasma level after ad lib vaping with their personal choice of hardware and refills, for subjects who have extremely high tolerance to nicotine (those who vape 60mg and above, in order to avoid relapse to smoking, and who show absolutely no signs of over-consumption).
- Find a testing method that can actually measure nicotine plasma levels at the brain, 8 seconds after inhalation, and measure the elevation vs time. Statements that, when vaping, it takes 1 minute for any plasma nic elevation to show are simply ridiculous - the problem is the testing method. You can very easily test it yourself and dispel this myth: take a high-power device, fill it with a 45mg refill, have someone (not yourself) warm up the atomiser (the test is worthless with a cold atomiser), start your stopwatch - and take a big, 6-second hit. Pull it all into your mouth, hold it there for 2 seconds, pull it into the lungs, hold it there 2 seconds, then exhale it slowly through the nose.
I can guarantee what the result will be and it won't take a minute. Assuming you are a nic-naive user, best to have some heart rate slowdown medication handy for use in about 10 seconds
PG lock-in: I have read in a tobacco cigarette research paper that the more PG is included in a cigarette, the less nicotine is bioavailable. This is consistent with our experience although perhaps the time delay is the more noticeable effect. You could test this, no doubt, by measuring plasma nic levels with (a) nicotine mixed with water, spilled onto the arm; and (b) nicotine mixed with PG, spilled onto the arm. Our experience indicates that PG exhibits a lock-in effect. Starting with a low nic strength of course, in case you have a sensitive tester. Some people are virtually immune to it though, ask e-liquid manufacturing staff in corner-cutting enterprises where they don't glove up properly. Some get spills on themselves that stay there for hours, with no effect.
A plasma nic level of 18ng in a vaper is at the very highest end of the scale, according to reports here on ECF from vapers' tests with their local clinic. It would be far more common to see 8ng. A vaper at 18ng got there using 36mg refills in a high-power device or by vaping a lower strength for an extended period.
Nevertheless this does not indicate any less of an effect than a smoker achieves with a 25 or 30ng level: because (a) vapers' plasma nic levels are always considerably lower for the same effect, and (b) we know that the individual's tolerance to nicotine varies by a factor of 10, therefore a single individual's result is meaningless - we need measurements from several individuals using exactly the same gear before any attempt at the meaning of the result can be made.
We sometimes hear that average strength refills such as 18mg can produce a 'good result' in a short time (i.e. a few minutes, as with say a couple of cigarettes) - but where is the evidence for this? Where are the records of elevated plasma nic levels with a refill strength this low? No doubt 5ng or perhaps 10ng can be achieved, and perhaps more easily if the individual has a low tolerance to nicotine. Short-term readings of 15ng or higher seem to be exclusively with 36mg strength refills. However I welcome any new evidence that low-strength refills can produce rapid elevated plasma nic levels in vapers.
The benchmark ecig now is a mid-size unit (aka an eGo) with a clearo (that is to say, any kind of clear tank arrangement, of which there are hundreds). If you work with ten experienced vapers using this hardware and an 18mg refill (which is generally termed average although I'd call it average-low, since it is less than half the strength of a realistic-strength refill), then you might get results ranging from 3 or 4ng to 10 or perhaps even 12ng plasma nic measurement in the short term (say under 30 minutes), and perhaps an average around 6 or 8ng. No doubt it can be elevated to 18ng or so with time.
If you want to see a cigarette-like result then you need to use 36mg or 45mg refills as that is what they are for: a few puffs and the job is done. However, I feel there is some confusion here: an EV (electronic vapouriser) or ecig isn't a cigarette and doesn't act like one in any measurable way. We already know that vapers get exactly the same satisfaction from a slightly slower and very much lower plasma nic elevation in the EV compared to a cigarette. Apparently, there are few who actually want a very fast and hard hit (i.e. rapid plasma nic elevation and to a comparably high level) as a cigarette, otherwise people would be queuing up for 36 and 45mg refills - and they're not. We can measure the delivered nicotine level and it is always much lower than for smoking, *but it gets the same result*.
Another thing: if you take a smoker and measure their plasma nic level at say 20 or 25ng; then next day (from a near baseline level) have them vape hard with a 36 or 45mg refill and get up to the same level, then they will be experiencing significant symptoms of nicotine OD. The two things are not the same.
No amount of assuming that nicotine delivered by a cigarette and an EV are identical will make it so. The pure nic delivered by an EV is far more powerful - a plasma nic level of about 40% less does exactly the same job.
Of course, this is all anecdotal as it depends on the veracity of the reports here. Until this kind of research is carried out, anecdotal is all we've got. Some of the measurements we need are:
- Compare plasma nic results obtained with 18mg refills to 45mg refills. How many puffs and how long to max level. (Intellicig have done this but didn't publish the full results.)
- Compare plasma levels using 18ng, using subjects who have low and high tolerance to nicotine. This will tell you how this factor affects the plasma nic level. Caution: some subjects cannot tolerate over 6mg refills when using efficient gear.
- Measure the peak plasma level after ad lib vaping with their personal choice of hardware and refills, for subjects who have extremely low tolerance to nicotine (those who vape 6mg and cannot tolerate 12mg). This will tell us the peak satisfaction level for someone with very low tolerance to nicotine (it varies tenfold).
- Measure the peak plasma level after ad lib vaping with their personal choice of hardware and refills, for subjects who have extremely high tolerance to nicotine (those who vape 60mg and above, in order to avoid relapse to smoking, and who show absolutely no signs of over-consumption).
- Find a testing method that can actually measure nicotine plasma levels at the brain, 8 seconds after inhalation, and measure the elevation vs time. Statements that, when vaping, it takes 1 minute for any plasma nic elevation to show are simply ridiculous - the problem is the testing method. You can very easily test it yourself and dispel this myth: take a high-power device, fill it with a 45mg refill, have someone (not yourself) warm up the atomiser (the test is worthless with a cold atomiser), start your stopwatch - and take a big, 6-second hit. Pull it all into your mouth, hold it there for 2 seconds, pull it into the lungs, hold it there 2 seconds, then exhale it slowly through the nose.
I can guarantee what the result will be and it won't take a minute. Assuming you are a nic-naive user, best to have some heart rate slowdown medication handy for use in about 10 seconds
PG lock-in: I have read in a tobacco cigarette research paper that the more PG is included in a cigarette, the less nicotine is bioavailable. This is consistent with our experience although perhaps the time delay is the more noticeable effect. You could test this, no doubt, by measuring plasma nic levels with (a) nicotine mixed with water, spilled onto the arm; and (b) nicotine mixed with PG, spilled onto the arm. Our experience indicates that PG exhibits a lock-in effect. Starting with a low nic strength of course, in case you have a sensitive tester. Some people are virtually immune to it though, ask e-liquid manufacturing staff in corner-cutting enterprises where they don't glove up properly. Some get spills on themselves that stay there for hours, with no effect.
47 Minutes in, Dr F tells you what the crowd funded research found..
VT Talk from Poland at the GNF - YouTube
VT Talk from Poland at the GNF - YouTube
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