E-Cigarettes, Miracle or Menace? BBC Horizon...

[Woofer]

You do not need combustion to create toxins, if that were true we would have no need for temperature controlled devices. Heating juice, wire or wicking beyond tolerable levels will alter the chemistry. We are on the same side here, but there is a lot we need to learn before we can just let this industry continue to be the free-for-all it has been.

To this point it has been about which company can one up the other, and less about what really makes this industry...us. If some of these bigger companies would have put half of their R&D budget into some scientific research, we may not be assuming half as much as we are at this point.

boo hiss, this we is perfectly happy with the free for all, land of the free home of the brave.

 

[Cumulo Vapus]

I found it interesting that the researcher who presented the findings on how cells react to normal air, vapor and cigarette smoke worked for BAT.

It all but confirms that big tobacco wants to knock out all the small players and control the ecigarette business as well.

 

[crxess]

Another good article on - The rest of the Story - Dr Michael Siegel

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary

 

[Jingles]

Off the wall question? Have researchers studied how the flavors react with stomach cells when ingested? I wonder if stomach cells show the same kind of "damage" as lung cells do when the flavors are inhaled. In other words what aren't they telling us? (I am assuming that any damage is quickly repaired in both lungs and stomachs, not that the "damage is really BAD).

 

[7sixtwo]

You do not need combustion to create toxins, if that were true we would have no need for temperature controlled devices. Heating juice, wire or wicking beyond tolerable levels will alter the chemistry. We are on the same side here, but there is a lot we need to learn before we can just let this industry continue to be the free-for-all it has been.

To this point it has been about which company can one up the other, and less about what really makes this industry...us. If some of these bigger companies would have put half of their R&D budget into some scientific research, we may not be assuming half as much as we are at this point.

Yes, we are definitely on the same side. We just disagree on a few things.

Imo, no regulation of e-cigs, APVs, or "ENDs" is appropriate beyond requiring a few basic warnings on e-juice bottles.

The massive innovations in the vape industry over the last few years are directly due to a lack of government interference. Free markets are self-correcting, and I don't recall any rash of poisonings, from the coils, the juices, or anything else.

 

[7sixtwo]

Off the wall question? Have researchers studied how the flavors react with stomach cells when ingested? I wonder if stomach cells show the same kind of "damage" as lung cells do when the flavors are inhaled. In other words what aren't they telling us? (I am assuming that any damage is quickly repaired in both lungs and stomachs, not that the "damage is really BAD).

If stomach cells are damaged in any way by vaping, then the damage is so minimal as to cause no discomfort, bleeding, or any other symptoms.

Considering that vaping keeps me from even being tempted to pick up the coffin nails again, I'm more than cool with any slight damage that my body can easily heal, (unlike cancer, emphysema, etc).

 

[crxess]

Oops.....I just blasted ACS on Facebook for Lying to Membership on a call to action over the Cole-Bishop Bill.

Hey, if I'm breathing, I'm not done

 

[crxess]

Off the wall question? Have researchers studied how the flavors react with stomach cells when ingested? I wonder if stomach cells show the same kind of "damage" as lung cells do when the flavors are inhaled. In other words what aren't they telling us? (I am assuming that any damage is quickly repaired in both lungs and stomachs, not that the "damage is really BAD).

Straight Answer - Minus Nicotine - All are GRAS - Generally Regarded As SAFE
Drinking PG is not advised.

 

[Jumpin' In...]

Off the wall question? Have researchers studied how the flavors react with stomach cells when ingested? I wonder if stomach cells show the same kind of "damage" as lung cells do when the flavors are inhaled. In other words what aren't they telling us? (I am assuming that any damage is quickly repaired in both lungs and stomachs, not that the "damage is really BAD).

That makes me wonder whether manufacturers of food flavorings have to spend $330K to get each if their flavors approved and whether those who use such a flavor in their food product also need to spend a like amount to put their final product on the market. (Yeah, right...)

 

[Dudeus Nordicus]

I also thought that big tobacco has a larger input in countries where their financial input is larger and so their rules go. Like certain countries where corruption is rife and they fund their government with so much income

It's a mixed story. In some countries Big Tobacco (and Big Pharma) gets to basically dictate the government's "health policy". Among non-democratic countries it depends on the local "dear leader". European countries have been mostly liberal (in its genuine non-political meaning) wait-and-see in their attitudes, with some still practically banning vaping while (surprisingly) Scandinavia has been reluctant to fully liberalize it, despite unbiased research and common sense clearly suggesting it.

While the WHO doesn't dictate member countries' policies directly, their recent extremely negative report and recommendations against vaping provides the local tobacco and pharma lobbies plenty of ammo to drive anti-vaping legislation and essentially makes the WHO complicit in millions of avoidable deaths.

What I would really like to see is serious investigative journalism into the anti-vaping lobby and confronting MPs and MEPs who've voted to make vaping less available than even cancer sticks. Let them name and shame their ignorant selves on camera. Also follow the trail of sensationalistic anti-vaping headlines regularly popping up in the press, often printed anonymously.

I am a former longtime smoker and I have no desire to ban smoking, if that's what some people choose to do to themselves, but when corrupt ...... are hell-bent on not just keeping the public uninformed but actively comparing my moderate (and potentially even beneficial) plain nic habit to the massively injurious burning tobacco epidemic or worse, they've got me heading for the barricades.

 

[Dudeus Nordicus]

I did watch the whole video yesterday. One thing I would have liked to see was them measure the bacterial or viral content of the room before and after vaping. It is my theory, and I've seen it elsewhere, that germs are greatly reduced in rooms that have been vaped in. They were looking for negatives. I wish they would have looked for positives during that segment.
Not only do we get less colds and illnesses, but so do many of our family members who don't even vape themselves!

There absolutely need for more unbiased research, like what they've done in the UK more recently, because in the end it's likely be more of a mixed story with some benefits and some downsides.

I want to know the facts either way.

I know that my own lung function, mouth hygiene, resistance to colds etc. have improved immensely after switching from smoking tobacco to vaping, but it's still important to know how VG, PG and various flavourings (and combinations thereof) affect different tissues exactly.

More information means that in the future we could have ingredients, maybe even something we haven't thought of yet, that are not just proven to be harmless but actually beneficial.

I'm not expecting "vaping cures rectal cancer!" or "vaping reverses aging and baldness!" by the end of the year, but we'll get there...

 

[Jingles]

As far as airway irritation goes, I know my own airways feel much better to me than when I smoked or even compared to when I wasn't a smoker. Remembering back to my teenage, non-smoking self, I frequently had mucus issues, mostly running down my throat. I would have to make sure I always had tissues with me. When I started smoking it only got worse. Since I quit smoking and took up vaping almost 5 years ago, that all went away. Probably because of the drying effects of the PG. I don't miss the constant throat irritation and having to cough phlegm up!

 

[englishmick]

Yes, they do regenerate. I think that most people know this (?) It was still interesting to see that menthol was more damaging to begin with than diacetyl was.

My point was not that you should not vape menthol, it was pointing out that some people are so afraid of the tiny amounts of diacetyl in flavoring when it may not be an issue at all in the extremely small amounts that we are using in our eliquid.

I smoked menthol cigarettes for 37 years. No current issues from the diacetyl or the menthol that was contained in them

Good point in your second para.

I've heard before about possible problems with diketones, and cinnamon too, including real world effects. This is the first time I've heard menthol brought up.

Anyway, after a year or so of DIY I finally stumbled into two recipes I really like, and one is Crème De Menthe. Until some more substantial worry stuff comes along I'm going to roll the dice on menthol. I might give up reading and watching the tele though.

 

[RandyF]

Yes, we are definitely on the same side. We just disagree on a few things.

Imo, no regulation of e-cigs, APVs, or "ENDs" is appropriate beyond requiring a few basic warnings on e-juice bottles.

The massive innovations in the vape industry over the last few years are directly due to a lack of government interference. Free markets are self-correcting, and I don't recall any rash of poisonings, from the coils, the juices, or anything else.

Massive innovation....no.....massive advancement....yes. Since vaping really took off there have been maybe 3 innovations; the clearomizer, VV/VW, and temp control. Other than those 3 things, everything else has just been different ways to do the same thing focusing on more power and bigger clouds, I wouldn't call that innovation.

Every industry has a system of checks and balances, our has none right now. Does Joe Blow want to create a juice line in his old micro brew setup, sure, go ahead. Is it okay for a company to create a device that can generate 500 watts for the ultimate clouds, okay. Do resellers think it is okay to re-wrap and advertise 50 amp batteries to fool people into a sense of security that isn't there, yep. This is just a few examples of our inability to police ourselves, greed is a powerful motivator. Is this the majority of the industry, no, but it is enough of it to be a problem.

 

[Dudeus Nordicus]

The more I think about this (public image of vaping), the more I feel that both vapers (disorganized as we are) and the mainstream media in free and democratic countries have failed to challenge the outlandish FUD about the real effects of vaping. (in non-free countries policies are dictated to the masses without public discourse)

I would like to see anti-vaping campaigners trying to justify their aims on programmes like BBC's Hard Talk where the host invariably knows his stuff thoroughly.

I'd like to see anti-vaping and pro-vaping campaigners on prime time TV debates chugging it out with facts.

With 1000,000,000 smokers' health and lives at stake surely the issue is worth more serious discussion than shadowy laws and directives either outright banning vaping or strangling it in red tape and prohibitive "entry" costs.

 

[AzPlumber]

Massive innovation....no.....massive advancement....yes. Since vaping really took off there have been maybe 3 innovations; the clearomizer, VV/VW, and temp control. Other than those 3 things, everything else has just been different ways to do the same thing focusing on more power and bigger clouds, I wouldn't call that innovation.

Every industry has a system of checks and balances, our has none right now. Does Joe Blow want to create a juice line in his old micro brew setup, sure, go ahead. Is it okay for a company to create a device that can generate 500 watts for the ultimate clouds, okay. Do resellers think it is okay to re-wrap and advertise 50 amp batteries to fool people into a sense of security that isn't there, yep. This is just a few examples of our inability to police ourselves, greed is a powerful motivator. Is this the majority of the industry, no, but it is enough of it to be a problem.

I don't think government regulations will protect us from greed, lots of greedy folks in government too.

 

[DC2]

I know that my own lung function, mouth hygiene, resistance to colds etc. have improved immensely after switching from smoking tobacco to vaping, but it's still important to know how VG, PG and various flavourings (and combinations thereof) affect different tissues exactly.

Be careful what you wish for...
Because that sounds like millions and millions of dollars for such testing.

The more I think about this (public image of vaping), the more I feel that both vapers (disorganized as we are) and the mainstream media in free and democratic countries have failed to challenge the outlandish FUD about the real effects of vaping. (in non-free countries policies are dictated to the masses without public discourse)

I would like to see anti-vaping campaigners trying to justify their aims on programmes like BBC's Hard Talk where the host invariably knows his stuff thoroughly.

I'd like to see anti-vaping and pro-vaping campaigners on prime time TV debates chugging it out with facts.

With 1000,000,000 smokers' health and lives at stake surely the issue is worth more serious discussion than shadowy laws and directives either outright banning vaping or strangling it in red tape and prohibitive "entry" costs.

On the other hand, the part I bolded in your quote above...

Spot on.
Hammer hits the nail.

It is the mainstream media that has buried us.
It is the mainstream media that keep our voices silent.

The tragedy of all of this is that vaping is only scraping the surface.
We've been lied to and manipulated for I really don't know how long.

But now that I know, I'm kind of ...... off about it.

 

[crxess]

That makes me wonder whether manufacturers of food flavorings have to spend $330K to get each if their flavors approved and whether those who use such a flavor in their food product also need to spend a like amount to put their final product on the market. (Yeah, right...)

No, as long as their Flavoring has already passed FDA GRAS on the Food side.
*Flavor Manufactures would be required to Submit the Flavoring information(full detail) Separately to the CTP Master File.
NO CROSS Linking for documentation - New Registration.

**** Several Flavor Manufacturers have already Chosen NOT to Comply with industry Request to supply these documents to the CTP

 

[Telmos]

Be careful what you wish for...
Because that sounds like millions and millions of dollars for such testing.

I would be all for regulation if FDA actually would spend all this money and time to provide high-quality research of all vaping component (flavors for example). Then tell us what's safe and what is not.

 

[RandyF]

I don't think government regulations will protect us from greed, lots of greedy folks in government too.

Lol, no, the government will not protect us from greed, they have perfected it. This industry is too big and growing too fast to fly under the radar anymore.

While I wish we could form our own regulatory committee and police ourselves, that simply isn't going to happen. It is a safe bet that would end up being corrupt as well anyway. So it is going to fall on the government to pass reasonable regulations. They tried to do it the easy way, but I do not believe that plan is going to work out too well. I think what the FDA really wants is congress to force ecigs into their own category, which would give the FDA reason to request additional resources to actually try and regulate it. As it stands congress wants the FDA to police a massive new industry with current resources, of which I'm sure they already feel are spread thin.