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E-cigs and Gun Rights--parallels on BOTH sides, Pro and Con...

Discussion in 'Day of Action' started by StereoDreamer, Oct 22, 2012.

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  1. StereoDreamer

    StereoDreamer Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 13, 2012
    Columbia MD
    As someone who has been furiously active in Second Amendment rights for the last 5 years in the Mid-Atlantic region (specifically NC and MD) I can say that in the few weeks I've been watching the E-cig community on this forum, it seems there are many parallels between these two movements.

    The MAIN parallels seem to be in the tactics of our opponents--people who oppose e-cigs and people who oppose gun rights. They seem to be using the same tactics--spewing lies, propaganda and more lies, making emotional appeals to "protect the children", and attempting to restrict and punish the law-abiding majority for the infractions of a TINY group of people who are going to break the law no matter WHAT the law says anyway.

    We need to remember that the people in our society (and in the government) who act like this--throwing their entire being into restricting the actions of law-abiding citizens, and are willing to lie, spew propaganda, and commit serial logical fallacies in their arguments and expect that the general public will fall for their lies--are NOT acting out of any sort of misguided goody-two-shoes pseudo-philanthropy. They are NOT acting out of some sort of altruistic attempt to "protect" people from something they see as "dangerous". They DO NOT care about the health, safety, or general welfare of the General Public any more than they care about the health and welfare of cockroaches or fire ants.

    These people do these things--seeking to ban e-cigs AND seeking to establish "gun free zones"--because they are interested in CONTROLLING YOU.

    They are sociopaths, plain and simple, and the idea that somewhere, someone is actually exercising their free will to run their own life the way they want, and is taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their own welfare and safety is anathema to these people. They simply cannot abide the idea that somewhere, someone has the audacity to NOT want to be a serf, dependent on the government, and "experts" and "authorities" to tell them how to act, think and live. They see you and me as "useless eaters" who need to be controlled, reigned in, corralled and herded into obedient serfdom, where THEY--the self-anointed Elite Ruling Class--have the ultimate say over EVERY aspect of our lives, from the kinds of lightbulbs we use to the amount of water our toilets flush, to the kind of food and medicine we ingest, to the way we defend and protect our families and property.

    These people are NOT capable of rational thought. They are driven by a psychotic desire to CONTROL others, and are willing to lie, cheat, perjure, conspire, falsify and slander in order to achieve their goals.

    We need to be aware of that. We are NOT fighting against normal humans here, folks--we are fighting against a kind of people who are quite literally one step away from being the next Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacey. These are people who see the majority of Mankind as mindless sheeple to be herded, prodded, exploited and controlled. They see themselves as being somehow more evolved, more intelligent, and more important than the rest of us. And they strongly believe in their dark little hearts that ANY tactic--no matter how duplicitious, despicable or dirty--is justified toward the achievement of their goals.

    If we enter into the "discussion" with that in mind, it changes the way the game is played--because the simple fact is, that in the fight for E-cig rights AND the fight for Second Amendment rights--the side that wishes to restrict and control these activities DOES NOT play by the rules, and in fact sees the rules as something to be circumvented, skirted, broken and disregarded for their own actions. But do not be deceived--they ALSO will hold OUR side to those same rules as if they were Holy Writ--and if we ever stumble, falter, or resort to the very tactics that THEY use on us, they will call us out for it.

    Wake up, people. This game is rigged. The other side is not merely power-hungry, or greedy, or just hates the idea of smoking. They HATE you, they HATE freedom, and they HATE the very idea that somewhere, someone is actually capable of, and willing to, make their own decisions for running their own life.

    They are, in a word, insane.

    And we need to acknowledge that in the very beginning.

    Once we understand that, we can THEN begin to formulate legitimate and effective tactics to fight against their propaganda, defend against their lies and slander, and maintain our right to live the way we want to--because once a right is gone, it is nearly impossible to get back.

    Just ask someone who lives in Washington DC how easy it is to exercise their Constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear arms if you don't believe me.

    If the e-cig community wants to be sucessful, you might want to take some cues from the "gun rights" community. Despite the constant, gradual, incremental chipping away at our RKBA for the last century in the US, gun rights today are at their highest point ever. And that is, in large part, due to the MASSIVE grass-roots efforts being made by common people--men and women in the field--who have simply refused to back down, and who put tremendous political and public pressure on their legislators and local governments to back the "f" off, and let them live life the way they want to, within the law.

    We in the e-cigs community only want the same thing. And maybe we need to start using some of the same tactics, and adopting some of the same fervor and dedication on the "grass roots" level.

    We can't even get a meet-up put together here in the DC area--how can we expect to effectively keep the States and Cities to listen to us if we can't get a few dozen Vapers (of the THOUSANDS of people using e-cigs in the area) to gather for dinner on a weekend? be continued...
  2. gijills

    gijills Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 3, 2012
    Tville FL
    I have not been vaping long enough to know what politics are being put to bear on it. but I fully agree with you on the people fighting against the 2nd amendment. They can be quite rabid in professing their opinion and stopping you from professing yours.
  3. JAY73

    JAY73 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 5, 2011
    Right on brother i feel you we do need to step up the "grass roots" movment and now we are starting to get the science behind us. I feel like one of our biggest wepoens are facts and the more people that can see this info the more ground we will win, but make no mistake about it it is gona be a long hard fight...
  4. haiqu

    haiqu Super Member ECF Veteran

    While I agree with much of what you've said about the rights of individuals to make their own decisions, I find it difficult to see a cigarette as immediately fatal to another person when put in the hands of someone with mental problems. I think you'll also find that the Second Amendment right to bear arms, when legally analyzed from the sense of the meaning of the words as understood at the time it was written and not later reinterpretation (e.g. DC vs Heller 2008), shows a clear intent for military use and not private. However, removal of the traditional right that has accrued since 1791 should probably be based on individual cases rather than blanket laws, which is why the recent Supreme Court decisions were fairly wise.

    In Australia when I was growing up an old soldier would often have a 303 rifle lying around as a memento of military service, and my grandfather regularly shot rabbits to supplement the diet of his rather large family. Myxomatosis and 1080 poison changed all that, since rabbits being an introduced species were regarded as pests and had reached plague proportions. We don't have much of anything else to take potshots at, so hunting was never a viable argument for the retention of guns here.

    When the laws required me to surrender my 0.177 air rifle to the local police I was fairly puzzled, but since it was no longer in use it didn't matter much. It was a kids' toy after all.

    There's a sound byte that says, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Fine, but I saw a lot of teenagers doing stupid stuff with guns in the '60s and I'm amazed that some of them didn't harm either themselves or others in the process. As population density increases, the luxury of being able to expect a spent bullet to land harmlessly in a distant field diminishes proportionately.

    On the other hand, the government will have to peel my vaping gear from my dead hand, because I'm harming nobody and there's no potential for that to ever change. I think therefore that discussion of gun control is fairly tangential on this forum, despite that several others have recently tried to introduce the subject here.

    Want to discuss the reduction of individual rights? Cool. Reduction of government and the nanny state? I'm all for it.
  5. hellerhighwater

    hellerhighwater Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2012
    Riverside, CA
    A good post, but I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of gun control advocates as folks who a) believe themselves to be better than the rest of humanity and b) have a sociopathic desire to exert control over you. I think this kind of characterization in fact hampers the debate by restricting the arena for meaningful and productive discussion. Your villainization of them is equivalent to their villainization of you. As a firearm owner and e-cig user, I am of course invested in your fight to retain our rights. You would do our cause service however, by recognizing that both anti-smoking campaigns and gun control movements are made up of normal people who care about the health, safety, and integrity of our communities. Describing them as anything less just feeds fuel to the fire. It's an issue of having an open discussion about e-cig usage and the benefits of responsible firearm ownership, not a battle between totalitarian sociopaths and constitutional heroes...
  6. qccraig

    qccraig Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 6, 2012
    Cape Coral, FL
    It should, be simple you don't like guns don't own one. Don't like e cigs don't vape. But these people can't leave it alone. Rather they don't like something so they feel the need to regulate it. If it's not guns and ecigs it will be the type of car you own or the size of your house or your income, etc. So we might as well fight all the do gooders of the world until they respect our right to live life as we want. I get so irritated sometimes.
  7. StereoDreamer

    StereoDreamer Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 13, 2012
    Columbia MD
    I knew when i posted this that I was running the risk of people not "getting it", and so now i guess I'll spend a few dozen posts trying to explain to people what I was getting at...

    I was not bringing up gun rights because I had any inclination that it was relevant to this forum. I was bring it up to illustrate that the opponents of gun rights use the same tactics and often possess the same mentality and motivations as the opponents of vaping.

    Not everyone who believes in "gun control" is a raving, frothing, control-freak sociopath. Neither is every person whois anti-smoking or anti-vaping. But it has been my experience (and that is considerable in the gun-rights world) that the people who are the real "movers-and-shakers"--the people who head up organizations, or are prominent lobbyists, or are highly-paid spokespeople--ARE, to a one. They only believe in two things--perpetuating and increasing their own fame, power and paychecks, and gaining every bit of control over the lives of others that they can, by any means necessary.

    They will lie. They will pay extraordinary amounts of money to have unscrupulous researchers produce junk-science "studies" for their cause. They will manipulate scientific data, engage in the most despicable types of propaganda, and will play the "save the children" and "poor oppressed, targeted minorites" cards every chance they get. And when it is shown, through easy-to-understand scientific data that their entire position is a fabricated stack of BS, they will invariably respond--not with logical argument, rational debate or civil discourse--but with vitriolic ad hominem attacks and scary emotional logical fallacies.

    I was using the "gun rights" movement to illustrate that THAT activity has been fighting this same fight--the battle to preserve individual freedom, decision-making, and personal responsibility--against the SAME sorts of people we are fighting against, for decades.

    They have learned the lesson the hard way. The NRA, SAF, GOA and other groups have had to spend millions of dollars taking classist racist oligarchs like the governments of Chicago, NYC and Washington DC to court over this issue. They have been met with lies, perjury, fabrication of evidence and the sort of testimony that--if given in a criminal case--would land the other side in prison for perjury and contempt of court.

    And we are coming up against these same kinds of people.

    I am sure that somewhere out there, there are soccer moms, cancer survivors, and pulmonary physicians who actualyl DO care about the health of other people, and genuinely DO want people to be healthy and have taking up anti-smoking and anti-vaping positions because they honestly believe that both activities are harmful.

    I also KNOW that they think this way NOT because they know the facts about vaping, but because they get their opinions from well-funded, well-paid propaganda organizations that are--to a one--headed up by sociopaths.

    This is not a popular or politically correct thing to say. The "calling out" of tyrants, criminals and oligarchs in positionsof power and fame never is. But people in the Vaping community need to know that this "game" is NOT going to be easy, fair or even have any understandable rules. The "other side" wil, quite literally, change the rules every time we get an advantage. They will lie--terrible putrid, soul-wrenching lies--about us and about vaping. Not because they believe anything they are saying, and not because they actually think vaping is bad in and of itself, but because they are sociopaths, and believe that ANY action is justifiable in the pursuit of their ultimate goal...

    The sooner that we understand this--that the "people at the top" of our opposition are sick, twisted sociopaths who don't actually believe in ANYTHING but forcing their own will onto others--the stronger our position will become and the closer to defeating them we will be.

    I don't care what the ANTZ think about me. Just like I don't care what gun-control people think about me. They ALREADY hate me bacause I DARE to exercise my own self-determination, make my own desicions, and be the master of my own destiny without begging them for guidance, permission or approval. My actual position on this issue, in their reality, has no bearing on their opinion of me anyway...

    I did not intend this to become a discussion of gun rights. And I will not engage in that discussion here--especially on the finer elements of early American legal syntax with a person who is a subject of the British crown.

    This post was originally--and will remain, if I have any say in it--about the interesting parallels between our struggle--legally, politically, socially, and public-opinion-wise--with the struggles of other, much more experienced and long-running Civil Rights movements. That is all...
  8. StereoDreamer

    StereoDreamer Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 13, 2012
    Columbia MD
    You've obviously never met Josh Sugarmann or Brian Frosh face-to-face... ;-)

    I have, and I maintain my position, based on personally observed data.
  9. mjt

    mjt Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 28, 2011
    Anyone that thinks this is a free country anymore has another thing coming. I fully expect the statists in Washington the squash vaping. When power becomes centralized instead of local, like it was intended in this country forget about being properly represented.
  10. maustypsu

    maustypsu Full Member Verified Member

    Feb 4, 2013
    North Carolina
    Rules suck!!!

    The interesting thing if/when vaping is outlawed will be to look at the pockets and campaign funds of those who vote to outlaw it. There will be more money flowing from the tobacco lobby than any health organization. It isn't about right and wrong where the decision is made - it's about money and power. That doesn't mean there aren't generally concerned people out there who are misinformed and want to do 'what is right.' But they can't make a law any more than you and I can protect a freedom. The decision makers in this will be bought before we know what happened.
  11. Scoop224

    Scoop224 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 4, 2012
    The OP is definitely "clued in" to the big picture. You know your history, and what darkness mankind is capable of. It's evident in your choice of statements. I respect you as a fellow Patriot and a brother in the fight against tyranny! Long live the Republic my friend!
  12. Koman

    Koman Moved On ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2010
    Agree with your statement. Totally!
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