Electronic Cigarettes: The Bad, The Ugly, The Truth

[kristin]

Gladly, Vocalek did. Kristin seems to have a personal aversion to me and I don't see a chance of her participating.

What the heck? That was completely from left field and I have no idea why you would say something like that.

Sorry, I try to comment whenever I can and sometimes, if I see Elaine already commented, there's not much more I can add - if anything. She's brilliant.

 

[Yankee802]

Well gentlemen (my locals), I'm thinking about tomorow/today (Monday). Why don't we meet at the mall at the food court? (Donley, you can just come here if you want) Say around 1? For those that don't have it, my number is 904-535-6000. (I don't care, I'll put it out there, I doubt we have any telemarketers on here)Being the dr's office is very close to it, and we can go mess with Lori at the njoy kiosk while we're at it.

 

[NCC]

I wish I could join you. I'm at work, as usual. Be sure to post follow up.

 

[Yankee802]

Haven't heard from the others, called Donley with no answer. I'll be at the mall at 1, but wont wait long. If no one shows up, I do have another apointment I need to take care of, and if there is time after that, I'll go see the Dr alone.

 

[Yankee802]

Ok, went to the Dr's office, he wasn't there, so I talked to one of his nurses. She seemed genuinley interested in what I had to say. It was mostly me talking, of course, about ecigs in general and how they have helped me and others. How the FDA is trying to ban them, and the theroy behind it. I told her about the ingredients in juice, and how PG is in athesma inhalers, so she went and grabbed 3 and looked. She couldn't find it listed, meaning the ingreadients were not spelled out, not that they don't have PG in them. She said she would research it and get back to me.

She knew about and had read the article the Dr had written, but didn't realy seem to have an opinion either way. She told me the editor of the paper asked the Dr to write the article, but had no details about the request. (motivation, points to cover, etc)

I told her even though the article inflammed myself and others on ECF, I saw it as an oportunity to try to get some studies done, and she informed me that they (studies) are funded by the company that requests it. So we'll see if/how this might progress, maybe we can get the larger suppliers (njoy, SE, etc) to fund this. I have NO idea how much something like this would cost, but the potential benefits (I would think) far outweigh the costs.

I left her my name and number, along with the information on ECF. Who knows, maybe we'll here from the doctor himself?

 

[Vocalek]

Ok, went to the Dr's office, he wasn't there, so I talked to one of his nurses. She seemed genuinley interested in what I had to say. It was mostly me talking, of course, about ecigs in general and how they have helped me and others. How the FDA is trying to ban them, and the theroy behind it. I told her about the ingredients in juice, and how PG is in athesma inhalers, so she went and grabbed 3 and looked. She couldn't find it listed, meaning the ingreadients were not spelled out, not that they don't have PG in them. She said she would research it and get back to me.

She knew about and had read the article the Dr had written, but didn't realy seem to have an opinion either way. She told me the editor of the paper asked the Dr to write the article, but had no details about the request. (motivation, points to cover, etc)

I told her even though the article inflammed myself and others on ECF, I saw it as an oportunity to try to get some studies done, and she informed me that they (studies) are funded by the company that requests it. So we'll see if/how this might progress, maybe we can get the larger suppliers (nJoy, SE, etc) to fund this. I have NO idea how much something like this would cost, but the potential benefits (I would think) far outweigh the costs.

I left her my name and number, along with the information on ECF. Who knows, maybe we'll here from the doctor himself?

Good for you! Let's hope something comes of it.

You know, about the asthma inhaler question. A while back I tried to verify that PG is used in asthma inhalers and could not find a product where PG was listed as an ingredient.

I can think of three explanations:

1. It's there but not shown in the ingredients list. (Not sure what the labeling requirements are for an inactive ingredient.)
2. It used to be in the personal asthma inhalers at one time, but is no longer used.
3. It's actually used in some different inhalation product(s), but not in the pocket-size personal asthma inhalers such as Ventolin.

Anybody know?

EDIT: Just found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18158714

Preclinical safety evaluation of inhaled cyclosporine in propylene glycol

These preclinical studies demonstrate the safety of aerosolized cyclosporine in propylene glycol and support its continued clinical investigation in patients undergoing allogeneic lung transplantation.

Now whether or not Novartis went on to actually use PG as a carrier in the final version of the product needs further research.

 

[D103]

Elaine I am fairly certain it is not, and never has been used in pocket-size asthma inhalers. This has bothered me for some time and I have been trying to find the source of the problem - I know I read in some report posted somewhere that PG has been used as an agent in conjunction with medications to be inhaled for other illnesses as well as asthma but I don't think it meant the typical asthma inhaler as we know it - I'll keep looking for the report(s)

 

[Windsage]

PG is usually used as a anti-bacterial spray I believe. It is approved by the EPA not FDA as it is actually listed as a pesticide for airborne bacteria on hospitals and other commercial spaces. Studies were done for this use many years ago. I have never read the studies, but I have seen the EPA regulations for it. They are online.

 

[nojoyet]

This is taken from the 2000 Edition of (Compendium of Parmaceuticals and Specialties(Canada)- so perhaps out of date but perhaps not. I've not included every word.

Ventolin inhalation Aerosol
each metered dose contains salbutamol in propellants.
Nonmedicinal ingredients dichlorodifluoromethane (propellant),
oleic acid and trichloromonofluoromethane (proplellant)

No mention of PG. Sorry I can't do any better than that and I can't explain it. We really need a physician or pharmacist.

 

[Devilooman]

In one of the threads about pg allergies there was someone that got very sick from an inhaler with pg in it. I will have to look later as it is waaaay past time I should have been in bed, lol.

 

[jiff]

Remember folks, don't form an angry mob outside this guys office... That would be bad publicity, so leave the pitchforks and torches at home.

Might be better to each go in individually in intervals. That way you aren't scaring the guy with half a dozen angry people piling up in his office.

...and if going in individually doesn't make this guy see the light, THEN you get the pitchforks and torches.

 

[vikings]

I'm really new to vaping (4 days!) and have tried to read up as much about it as possible....whether good or bad. The thing that strikes me most is that almost every article that has something negative to say about e-cigs has based their argument on the extremely one-sided and questionable 'study' conducted by the FDA. What really stands out to me is how they constantly bang on the idea that e-cigs are bad for us and that not enough research has been conducted.

Maybe I'm being naive but if not enough research has been conducted, how in the world did these esteemed individuals conclude that e-cigs are bad/dangerous? Double-standards, no?

I'm all for being objective and I want to know the truth as well. If these higher powers are genuinely concerned about the safety of e-cigs, run some detailed and properly executed studies immediately....then be completely transparent with the results. If e-cigs are indeed as dangerous as tobacco smoking, fine! We have a right to know as well. However, if they pose less of a health risk than tobacco smoking, we have that same right to know, along with the rest of the general public.

It truly saddens me to see how authorities can be so easily manipulated by the obvious 'big money' behind the tobacco industry when what is more important is the health of us ordinary folk.

If they truly are so concerned about the potential dangers a product poses to the health of the general public, why not back up that concern and ban tobacco smoking? It's a proven killer and the destructive costs are in the billions every year. Stop saddling that high horse while preaching to the masses about the 'potential' dangers of a product they hardly know anything about when the true mass killer is allowed to prance around without so much as a slap on the wrist.

I might not be a scientist, economist, politician or some high-ranking CEO, but I do have the common sense to see how ......ed their argument is.

Sorry for the long rant everyone. It's just something I had to get off my now-4-days-old-free-from-4000-assorted-carcinogens-chest.

 

[voltaire]

I don't *know* about asthma inhalers, but you will find PG in most all forms of nasal sprays, and obviously all kinds of other consumer products.

I do *think* PG is a common ingredient in inhalers, but since it is considered an "inactive ingredient" it is not required to be listed as an ingredient. See here:
"Inactive" Ingredients in Pharmaceutical Products: Update (Subject Review) -- Committee on Drugs 99 (2): 268 -- Pediatrics

That PG is considered an inactive ingredient, and not required to be listed in the ingredients of pharmaceutical products, (including inhalers) should serve as prima facie evidence of it's safety.

(ETA): Also, if you go here:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/iig/index.cfm
(and type "propylene glycol" in the search box)
...you will see that PG is approved by the FDA in one of the entries as an "inhalation solution" - although the stated maximum potency is 25%. I'm not sure if that means quantities above that amount are not approved, or just that they are no longer considered "inactive" and must be listed.

 

[D103]

Sorry, I was SO WRONG! After further research I have found that PG has been used in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950's. Also, because of it's water-retaining properties, it is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication.
Sorry for my gross mistake!

 

[Yankee802]

D103: you got links for your research where you found PG in the inhalers? Would love to have hard evidence.

 

[Vocalek]

I'm really new to vaping (4 days!) and have tried to read up as much about it as possible....whether good or bad. The thing that strikes me most is that almost every article that has something negative to say about e-cigs has based their argument on the extremely one-sided and questionable 'study' conducted by the FDA. What really stands out to me is how they constantly bang on the idea that e-cigs are bad for us and that not enough research has been conducted.

Maybe I'm being naive but if not enough research has been conducted, how in the world did these esteemed individuals conclude that e-cigs are bad/dangerous? Double-standards, no?

I'm all for being objective and I want to know the truth as well. If these higher powers are genuinely concerned about the safety of e-cigs, run some detailed and properly executed studies immediately....then be completely transparent with the results. If e-cigs are indeed as dangerous as tobacco smoking, fine! We have a right to know as well. However, if they pose less of a health risk than tobacco smoking, we have that same right to know, along with the rest of the general public.

It truly saddens me to see how authorities can be so easily manipulated by the obvious 'big money' behind the tobacco industry when what is more important is the health of us ordinary folk.

If they truly are so concerned about the potential dangers a product poses to the health of the general public, why not back up that concern and ban tobacco smoking? It's a proven killer and the destructive costs are in the billions every year. Stop saddling that high horse while preaching to the masses about the 'potential' dangers of a product they hardly know anything about when the true mass killer is allowed to prance around without so much as a slap on the wrist.

I might not be a scientist, economist, politician or some high-ranking CEO, but I do have the common sense to see how ......ed their argument is.

Sorry for the long rant everyone. It's just something I had to get off my now-4-days-old-free-from-4000-assorted-carcinogens-chest.

Well, the Tobacco Act prohibits FDA from banning any class of tobacco product (which is one reason why we want the Courts to declare definitively that "tobacco product" is the correct classification for our type of cigarette.)

But I agree that since this is being used as a substitute for smoking, it's in the best interest of public health if FDA does the dern studies comparing smoke to vapor.

Regarding safety of FDA-approved drugs, you might enjoy my imaginary cross-examination of Margaret Hamberg in http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-news/92186-se-vs-fda-discussion-5.html

It's response #47.

 

[nojoyet]

Ok, went to the Dr's office, he wasn't there, so I talked to one of his nurses. She seemed genuinley interested in what I had to say..."

"...She told me the editor of the paper asked the Dr to write the article, but had no details about the request. (motivation, points to cover, etc)...
QUOTE]

Nice work!

The sentence referring to the paper is encouraging with regard to approaching the editor to publish more favourable material, if you are still planning to make that contact.

 

[DC2]

Ok, went to the Dr's office, he wasn't there, so I talked to one of his nurses.

Good work, fellow vaper!

I wish I could go get in someone's face.
But nobody around here is causing us any problems.

I guess that's a good thing though.

 

[kristin]

Sorry, I was SO WRONG! After further research I have found that PG has been used in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950's. Also, because of it's water-retaining properties, it is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication.
Sorry for my gross mistake!

D103: you got links for your research where you found PG in the inhalers? Would love to have hard evidence.

I'd like to see those, as well. I've only been able to find PG mentioned regarding inhalers in articles with no references. After checking numerous inhaler ingredients online, I have yet to find one with PG. It seems like they USED to use PG, but not anymore.

 

[trailblazer6]

This is taken from the 2000 Edition of (Compendium of Parmaceuticals and Specialties(Canada)- so perhaps out of date but perhaps not. I've not included every word.

Ventolin inhalation Aerosol
each metered dose contains salbutamol in propellants.
Nonmedicinal ingredients dichlorodifluoromethane (propellant),
oleic acid and trichloromonofluoromethane (propellant)

No mention of PG. Sorry I can't do any better than that and I can't explain it. We really need a physician or pharmacist.

Nonmedicinal ingredients dichlorodifluoromethane (propellant), AKA R12 or cfc-12 used to be used in automobile A/C systems and household refrigerators. As well as a propellant in inhailed meds. Was removed from the US market in 1995.

trichloromonofluoromethane (propellant) AKA R22 or cfc-22 used in Residential and light commercial A/C systems and commercial refrigeration.
This will be phased out no later then 2020 tho I suspect sooner. IMO