Exhaled Vapor - Safe for kids?

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cigarbabe

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vaperstv
hmm. don't really care if you don't think my kids didn't know I smoked or not. Like I said, until the last month before I stopped, they did not. My smoking habits are not necessarily the same as yours. Until that last month, I was not out of control of my smoking. If you want to model poor behavior for your kids, go ahead. sorry if I hit a nerve with my post
CHILDREN WITH PARENTS WHO SMOKE ARE MORE LIKELY TO PICK UP SMOKING - Health Promotion Board Singapore

Being that Singapore and most countries have modeled their "programs" on the WHO & FDA's severely lacking info and press releases I wouldn't take it seriously.
You have not hit a sore spot with me as far as your behavior goes one way or the other.
I would suggest that most would find smoking to be "the poor behavior" you spoke of anyway as far as doing it with kids in the house. Others may disagree.
I simply find that kids are a lot smarter, perceptive and more intuitive than you have given them credit for was and is my point.
I never wanted children so I never needed to hide anything from them......:glare:
I also go out of my way to tell the truth with my nieces and nephews about smoking and vaping and I do so openly and honestly.
C.B.
 

emus

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I took a look an some data from gas chromatography on sveral brands of ejuice. There we some interesting results when you look and the indication of the data listed.

For the clouds tested, based on expected concentration of liquid (listed as "regular, low etc.), the repective percentage of nicotine present is much higher than in liquid form.

If a bottle is 36mg/mL, then its 3.6% by volume. The percentage for "regular" (likely 2.4% liquid form) is 8.5% As a weak undergrad just getting my feet wet, I would get the percentage of vaporized nicotine is higher than some or all other ingredients of e juice solution. This "increase" in cnesentration percentage explains a number of anecdotal questions I have had for a while about dosing, absorption etc.

The point I raise here is that proximity to the little one while vaping appears to be a bad idea. The needed information is a ratio expressing how much secondhand vapor is inhaled when the secondhand vaper is very close.

I'm no expert, but the suggestion I would make is to have your kids out of arms reach, or to not be vaping.

Cool; are you able do do an analysis of exhaled vapor?
 

Geordi

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One safety concern, apart from 'second hand vape' is to keep all the juice far, far away from children and pets. My dogs, for instance, are quite attracted to my banana flavoured juice. They want to sniff-sniff-sniff me when I'm vaping it. I am very careful to keep the juice out of their reach. Heaven knows what ingesting a 30 ml bottle would do to them, I imagine it would be fatal.
 

brittanyNI

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I DO believe exhaled vapor to be safe, or most certainly as safe as plenty of other of things in our environment such as the smell of a braised steak.

I also believe that the perils of second-hand smoke are greatly exaggerated through bad science. If the "studies" are to be believed, second-hand smoke allegedly causes everything from ear infections to learning disabilities. I grew up with parents that smoked and never had an ear infection in my life. I didn't start smoking until in my mid-20's and had excelled in girl's track (setting some high school and district records) in high school as well. Evidently all that second hand smoke -- which I admit was unpleasant -- was not especially harmful. And observing them smoking, if anything, was more of a deterrent than license. I undertook it later in life for my own reasons.

I usually make my own e-juice. It contains USP glycerin, USP propylene glycol, FDA-approved flavors and vodka. That's all. None of these things has been shown to be harmful first hand, much less second-hand. The amount of nicotine dispersed in the air is negligible.

It is my opinion that second-hand vape is utterly harmless and innocuous.

As I said, the only reason not to vape around kids in my opinion is to avoid modeling behavior you don't want imitated.

HOWEVER -- just for the record, I do not believe vaping, use of nicotine (or caffeine, or alcohol) or even smoking to be MORALLY evil or wrong activities. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with using nicotine through vaping and quite frankly I do so in public.

The anti-vaping crowd is incredibly intellectually dishonest. When they scream that vaping liquids contain "anti-freeze" it is intended to capitalize on the well-known toxicity of AUTOMOTIVE anti-freeze, which is ethylene glycol, a very different compound.
 

P1NkY

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My childhood was full of smoke.

I grew up in a smoke-filled house. Always rode in a smoke-filled car, sometimes with the windows rolled up. Both my parents and the vast majority of my older relatives smoked. I despised cigarette smoke- but it did not kill me or affect me in any way that I'm aware of.

I started smoking at 16. I did NOT start because my parents smoked. Kids VERY RARELY do things in their teens because their parents did it; in fact, quite the opposite is often the case. You do NOT want to "be" like your parents.
I started because I wanted to look "mature" and "cool" and "badass". Go ahead and laugh, that's why many of us started, although we try to deny it. Also why I got earrings and let my hair grow long and wore all black all the time and listened to metal, but I digress...

Here's where most would start yelling "Crucify him!", so I apologize beforehand; I wish I could take it all back:

7 years later, I got married to my wonderful (non-smoker) wife and smoked indoors. And in the car (never with rolled up windows, but still...). Fast forward (after 5 years of trying) and I'm a father. Still smoked indoors (in my private den, not around my son) and in my car. Yep. Windows rolled down, son in back, wife next to me. (I said I would take it back if I could, I still hate myself for it.)

Fast forward another 4 years and my baby girl comes on the scene. Wife (rightfully, bless her soul) banned my smoking self to the outside. Screen door took a lot of wear and tear, I'll tell ya THAT. No more smoking in the car, either (unless I was the only one in it, and that's for MY car, NOT hers)!

She would rag on me for smoking in the house when I was alone, even if I opened all the windows and turned the fan on, blowing the smoke out.

10 years later I found ecigs.

I vape indoors and out. In my car and hers (still not with windows rolled up when others are in it). Around my 2 kids and wife and dog and fish and lovebird. I don't blow the vapor at them, nor do I like my daughter trying to sniff my vape. I do not think it is very unsafe to vape around them. Ever had a barbecue? Do ya think those charcoal briquettes exude a clean, fresh gray cloud of nothingness? Not even grease spattered? Do you take your kids to the next neighborhood over, to get them away from this evil secondhand smoke?

Might as well get them gas masks or better yet- radiation suits.

I try VERY hard not to torture smokers, though I now find cigarette smoke disgustingly foul. I try to remember "That was me, not so long ago."

Sorry about the long post. Forgive us all and be nice to each other; we're only human.
 

emus

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Ever had a barbecue? Do ya think those charcoal briquettes exude a clean, fresh gray cloud of nothingness? Not even grease spattered? Do you take your kids to the next neighborhood over, to get them away from this evil secondhand smoke?

Might as well get them gas masks or better yet- radiation suits.

Don't forget their helmets.
 

cigarbabe

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I took a look an some data from gas chromatography on sveral brands of ejuice. There we some interesting results when you look and the indication of the data listed.

For the clouds tested, based on expected concentration of liquid (listed as "regular, low etc.), the repective percentage of nicotine present is much higher than in liquid form.

If a bottle is 36mg/mL, then its 3.6% by volume. The percentage for "regular" (likely 2.4% liquid form) is 8.5% As a weak undergrad just getting my feet wet, I would get the percentage of vaporized nicotine is higher than some or all other ingredients of e juice solution. This "increase" in cnesentration percentage explains a number of anecdotal questions I have had for a while about dosing, absorption etc.

The point I raise here is that proximity to the little one while vaping appears to be a bad idea. The needed information is a ratio expressing how much secondhand vapor is inhaled when the secondhand vaper is very close.

I'm no expert, but the suggestion I would make is to have your kids out of arms reach, or to not be vaping.

Exactly.
You did say you aren't an expert in that field are you? I'm not trying to argue with anyone here only asking that people use common sense when determining what you are choosing to believe when there is data out there for you to benefit from instead of repeating things that may not be fact based.
Most of us have read this study and made our own conclusions.
This study was done by the FDA using smoking machines and I don't believe you can reliably extrapolate data from a study by the FDA knowing beforehand what they were trying to do which was "show harm in use".
Also the parts per billion equal minute amounts in my opinion when talking about TSN's.
I could be wrong but almost all of the juices were from China "based" and I think most people have found it safer and better for their peace of mind to use juice from vendors they trust and whom also vape in many cases.
This data also say's
"We cannot, moreover, easily infer human risk from chemical measurements because no reliable toxicity indices exist."24 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/centers-...ticle.jphp.pdf page #9

Lest you think I'm saying they are absolutely safe think again. The study also says;

"Thus far, none of the more than 10,000 chemicals present in tobacco smoke, including over 40 known carcinogens, has been shown to be present in the cartridges or vapor of electronic cigarettes in anything greater than trace quantities.
No one has reported adverse effects, although this product has been on the market for more than 3 years.
Still, the FDA struck a more ominous tone in its July 2009 press release, warning of the presence of carcinogens at ‘detectable’ levels.29 Yet it failed to mention that the levels of these carcinogens was similar to that in NRT products.
(Table 2). Whereas electronic cigarettes cannot be considered safe, as there is no threshold for carcinogenesis, they are undoubtedly safer than tobacco cigarettes.


This is what constitutes good news for vapers as far as I'm concerned and the fact that my personal health has improved immensely! If this is dangerous to me I will take it over what I was using before I was exposed to them.
I'm not sure why some of you are placing so much faith or what have you in a study by the FDA?
C.B.
 
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Creniker

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I don't want to sound like a uncaring parent, but I vape inside with my two year old. I vape 6mg moving on to zero, and I truly believe it has zero effect on him. Living in a city for a week is equivalent to 1 pack of smokes as far as damage to your lungs. I wouldn't vape around him unless I felt it was safe. Considering I know PG and VG are safe, and I know that most of my low to zero nic liquid is absorbed before exhale, I don't see a reason in the world it would be harmful.
 

Uncle Willie

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There are plenty of definitive studies on vaping the chemicals we use in juices and on propylene glycol. Check out and read the studies at CASAA.org
There are no studies on every vendors juices.
If you believe you should be cautious fine then do so for yourself and your families.
I believe most of us have concluded from the way our health has improved that vaping is infinitely safer than smoking tobacco cigarettes period.
It is opinions like yours that make the lines between smoking and vaping blurred so please,please please stop saying things that just aren't factual or true Uncle Willie.
I am not a smoker.
I am an ex-smoker.
I am a VAPER!
Vaping does not equate to smoking don't be misled!
C.B.

sorry, everything I say is true .. and someone has to say it since so many of us are in denial
 

Uncle Willie

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Cigarettes were considered safe .. those of you that continue to insist that the e-cig is proven safe are simply wrong .. we do not know without a doubt and that's the end of it .. I'm not going to stop using it, but I'm also not going to bury my head in the sand ..

As well, until this industry self regulates, it's asking for trouble .. now, if you want to argue with that, feel free .. common sense will have gone out the window, then ..
 

swedishfish

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Cigarettes were considered safe .. those of you that continue to insist that the e-cig is proven safe are simply wrong .. we do not know without a doubt and that's the end of it .. I'm not going to stop using it, but I'm also not going to bury my head in the sand ..

As well, until this industry self regulates, it's asking for trouble .. now, if you want to argue with that, feel free .. common sense will have gone out the window, then ..


Cigarettes were never considered safe. 100-200 years ago people only lived until they were 40 or so and they died of other things long before they could develop lung cancer or anything associated with cigarettes. From the time they started actually doing tests, the tobacco companies knew they weren't safe.

How exactly do you envision juice being regulated? Or self-regulated? What do you want to see happen? Who is going to do it? Who is going to enforce it?

This is such a circular argument that goes on all the time here and just goes round and round. Name one thing- just one thing that's proven to be safe. Anything?
 

brittanyNI

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... Also the parts per billion equal minute amounts in my opinion when talking about TSN's. I could be wrong but almost all of the juices were from China "based" ... Thus far, none of the more than 10,000 chemicals present in tobacco smoke, including over 40 known carcinogens, has been shown to be present in the cartridges or vapor of electronic cigarettes in anything greater than trace quantities.
No one has reported adverse effects, although this product has been on the market for more than 3 years. ... Still, the FDA struck a more ominous tone in its July 2009 press release, warning of the presence of carcinogens at ‘detectable’ levels.29 Yet it failed to mention that the levels of these carcinogens was similar to that in NRT products.
(Table 2). Whereas electronic cigarettes cannot be considered safe, as there is no threshold for carcinogenesis, they are undoubtedly safer than tobacco cigarettes.

I'd like to expand on this a bit.

TSNs are "tobacco specific nitrosamines."

Some nitrosamines are known to be carcinogenic. The primary source of nitrosamines in humans in the U.S. is the human stomach. You see, the human stomach provides acid conditions under which the FDA-approved nitrite (NOT "nitrATE" but "nitrITE") preservatives combine with the secondary amines in proteins (from meat, grain, whatever) to form ... ta dah! ... nitrosamines.

Nitrosamines are IN GENERAL carcinogenic. They are abundant in the air we breath anytime substances containing protein are cooked, and anytime we eat something preserved with nitrites.

The focus on TOBACCO SPECIFIC nitrosamines is simply, by definition, a singling out of tobacco for vilification. Have you ever heard of "beef-specific nitrosamines?" Well, they DO exist.

I want to point out that our very own government has established regulations that literally *require* the addition of certain levels of nitrites to certain foods and thus require people who eat those foods to consume carcinogenic nitrosamines. They limit the amount of nitrite used in order to limit the exposure to nitrosamines; but it should be clear that they have determined a "safe level of exposure" for those purposes. Probably, to be honest, this level of exposure is NOT safe and simply represents a balancing act between the need to keep people from dropping dead immediately from bacterial contamination as opposed to dropping dead later from a cancer of "unknown" cause.

I don't see anyone proposing the addition of a warning label with diseased organs on beef jerky; even though 99% of the jerky sold in this country is laden with nitrites that will create nitrosamines.

Meanwhile, though most places are switching to chloramine treatment, chlorinated water has generated gobs of carcinogens because the very active chlorine atom displaces hydrogen in organic compounds remaining in the water to form all manner of highly nasty stuff. Yet our governments have actively approved of this practice, again, because the immediate risk of people flopping over dead from bacterial contamination was greater than the longer-term risks of cancers of unknown origin.

Our government knowingly exposes us to increased cancer risks in a variety of ways on the basis of cost-benefit-analysis; and does not require our water taps and foods that are contaminated in this fashion to bear warnings or placards.

I would challenge them to show ANY practical increase in cancer risk above background risks (e.g carcinogenesis from background radiation and other causes, etc.) for the studied population resulting from the extremely tiny amount of tobacco-specific nitrosamines present in e-liquids.

True, there is no threshold for determining when any potential carcinogen is actually carcinogenic. Likely there are many other factors that determine this for any given individual. But the compounds we inhale daily in an internal-combustion-driven modern society, and the food we eat that has been covered with pesticides, injected with artificial hormones and then preserved with nitrites among other things dwarf any carcinogenic exposure from vaping.
 

GIMike

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I would challenge them to show ANY practical increase in cancer risk above background risks (e.g carcinogenesis from background radiation and other causes, etc.) for the studied population resulting from the extremely tiny amount of tobacco-specific nitrosamines present in e-liquids.

But you know when they release that one study that we all know is coming, that when they put the mice in the sealed running wheels that make them run non-stop while breathing in our "vapor" (would probably be 128 mg nic), and they die 2 years faster than the other mouse that's left to play and run around freely in it's own cage, that it will be the vapor that killed it and so therefore it's highly toxic and dangerous.
 
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