FDA deeming rule could happen tomorrow

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zoiDman

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No don't worry about it. I was just curious. I trust your word :)

I'm Not Saying that a Legal Challenge will be Successful. And doing what I am saying redefines an "Uphill Battle". But there Will Be Legal Actions Taken.

---

My Opinion: The FDA had a Unique Opportunity that probably will Not come around again in Our Lifetime to Enhance Public Health. But by Clinging to an Archaic system that is Broken and has Failed to place the Health of All People over the Profits of Corporations, have Violated not only what they were Entrusted to Do, but have turned their backs on the Moral Responsibilities that each person (should) holds.
 

skoony

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The PMTA for ENDS will be Legally Challenged saying that the FDA has placed such Costly and Complex requirements on New Products that it Disenfranchises ALL but BT.
Health considerations and "the chillin'" out ways disenfranchisement no hands down.
Theoretically this is regulation not a out right ban. Health and safety concerns have
always been considerations that pertain to and trump all other considerations at the local,
state and federal levels. They are also why regulating any market is not a violation
of the interstate clause.
:2c:
Regards
mike
 
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Completely Average

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Sooner or later some bright eyed bushy tailed bureaucrat will figure this out
on his or her own. When they decide on a formula to convert usage from
cigarette to vaping $1.00 per ml is not going to cut it. Buy some estimates
a 1 liter bottle of 100 mg per ml nic base represents 55.5 liters cut 18 mg
per liter.(these figures for arguments sake) That's 55,500.555 ml x $5.00 of
tax loss based on the cost per pack in Minnesota. That comes to $277,777.00
in potential lost revenue based on a ml per pack comparison.
If you take into account that the only vendors that attempted to make
equivalent comparisons of vaping v smoking in quantitative terms were
cigalike makers this becomes the only reference to base any taxation
rate.
3 years ago or so anything approaching 5 ml of juice a day was considered
a lot in most cases. I myself smoked 2 packs a day smoking. I vape about
2 ml a day in juice. In the meantime devices have developed more power
and consume ever increasing amounts of juice. I doubt this will be taken into
consideration by the tax man.
One also must consider that if everyone in the US that smokes switched
to vaping today and all new would be smokers started vaping instead that
would mean the end of vaping as a tax base or profit maker in 20 years time.
When the vapers that have never used tobacco have replaced all of us once
smokers there will be nothing to prevent them from just quitting due to exorbitant
prices because nicotine does not cause dependence in lifetime non-tobacco users.
The myth of nicotine addiction - Formindep
The government, BP and, BT know this. That is why these regulations are designed
to destroy the industry not,to protect the children. Vaping in the absence of smoking
is not economically viable to the extent it is today with out new smokers to feed
into the user base. They are simply going to kill vaping off to maintain there revenue base.
:2c: and it's just my 2 cents
Regards
Mike

Total nonsense.

How much tax are they going to make with 0 sales? Calculate that.


This is a market. Big tobacco can only make money if they make sales. Government can only tax the market if they make sales. No sales = no money for anyone.

So, you cannot price the product any higher than people are willing to pay. Would you be vaping now if a 50ml bottle of juice was $250+? Think about it. They want to regulate and tax the market, not kill the market entirely. If they overprice everything too much then no one buys anything and they've lost their entire investment. They're not going to do that.
 

skoony

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Total nonsense.

How much tax are they going to make with 0 sales? Calculate that.


This is a market. Big tobacco can only make money if they make sales. Government can only tax the market if they make sales. No sales = no money for anyone.

So, you cannot price the product any higher than people are willing to pay. Would you be vaping now if a 50ml bottle of juice was $250+? Think about it. They want to regulate and tax the market, not kill the market entirely. If they overprice everything too much then no one buys anything and they've lost their entire investment. They're not going to do that.
Well for one thing I am reading the deeming regs. There is nothing in them that
I have found so far that indicates they want a market.The regulations are about
destroying the market,getting everyone back to smoking where they can make and
maintain a viable long term tax and profit base. If tobacco most importantly cigarettes
disappeared off the face of the Earth forever tomorrow vaping alone could not maintain
the tax and profit bases for BP/BT and the government that the cigarette market provides.
Life time non-tobacco users do not develop a dependency to nicotine alone.
The myth of nicotine addiction - Formindep
There would be no hook to keep em' down on the farm. Vapers would just walk
away and find something cheaper to spend their recreational dollars on.
Vaping with out smoking to recharge its ranks is not a viable economic model.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 
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zoiDman

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Total nonsense.

How much tax are they going to make with 0 sales? Calculate that.


This is a market. Big tobacco can only make money if they make sales. Government can only tax the market if they make sales. No sales = no money for anyone.

So, you cannot price the product any higher than people are willing to pay. Would you be vaping now if a 50ml bottle of juice was $250+? Think about it. They want to regulate and tax the market, not kill the market entirely. If they overprice everything too much then no one buys anything and they've lost their entire investment. They're not going to do that.

It is Refreshing to read something by Someone who Understands what is a Prime Mover in the e-Cigarette Market.

Profits and Taxes.
 
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Robino1

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On the face of it, it looks like reasonable regulations. Hubby was curious and had to go look for himself. Came back to me and said "I don't see where they are trying to kill vaping..." Then I informed him of what steps vendors have to take, under the new 'regulations' and how impossible it is for the small business to comply.

He went back and looked at them again with that view in mind and looked deeper. He calls the FDA words that I cannot repeat here on the forum.

He now gets it. He now knows why I was crying yesterday and why my eyes still well up today.

I am not done fighting. I will fight with my whole being. If I have to contribute to a legal fund, I will do so. This is my pledge. My pledge to all vapers and my pledge to the people that come after me.
 

redrebel821

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On the face of it, it looks like reasonable regulations. Hubby was curious and had to go look for himself. Came back to me and said "I don't see where they are trying to kill vaping..." Then I informed him of what steps vendors have to take, under the new 'regulations' and how impossible it is for the small business to comply.

He went back and looked at them again with that view in mind and looked deeper. He calls the FDA words that I cannot repeat here on the forum.

He now gets it. He now knows why I was crying yesterday and why my eyes still well up today.

I am not done fighting. I will fight with my whole being. If I have to contribute to a legal fund, I will do so. This is my pledge. My pledge to all vapers and my pledge to the people that come after me.
I'm in on a good fight! My hubby has never smoked, never vaped... But even he says he would help fight and encourages me to keep going. I think we all need to take a trip to FDA HQ in Maryland and have a vape-in. I'm all about a good protest!
 

Robino1

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I'm in on a good fight! My hubby has never smoked, never vaped... But even he says he would help fight and encourages me to keep going. I think we all need to take a trip to FDA HQ in Maryland and have a vape-in. I'm all about a good protest!
I've already informed my hubby that if there is a call for this to happen, I am going. He supports my decision. He is a never smoker/vaper.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
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On the face of it, it looks like reasonable regulations. Hubby was curious and had to go look for himself. Came back to me and said "I don't see where they are trying to kill vaping..." Then I informed him of what steps vendors have to take, under the new 'regulations' and how impossible it is for the small business to comply.

He went back and looked at them again with that view in mind and looked deeper. He calls the FDA words that I cannot repeat here on the forum.

He now gets it. He now knows why I was crying yesterday and why my eyes still well up today.

I am not done fighting. I will fight with my whole being. If I have to contribute to a legal fund, I will do so. This is my pledge. My pledge to all vapers and my pledge to the people that come after me.

On First Look, I think how your Husband viewed the FDA Actions are about how Most Casual Readers would perceive it.

The Media Headlines I see echo the Same Thing... "FDA enacts regulations to prevent under aged usage.". Hey that's Friggin Great. But doesn't just about Every State have an 18+ age limit already?

It isn't until you start looking at what it will take Time and Cost wise to get a New Tobacco Product thru the FDA Maze that you start to understand what this Really is.
 

Robino1

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On First Look, I think how your Husband viewed the FDA Actions are about how Most Casual Readers would perceive it.

The Media Headlines I see echo the Same Thing... "FDA enacts regulations to prevent under aged usage.". Hey that's Friggin Great. But doesn't just about Every State have an 18+ age limit already?

It isn't until you start looking at what it will take Time and Cost wise to get a New Tobacco Product thru the FDA Maze that you start to understand what this Really is.
Exactly.
 

redrebel821

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On First Look, I think how your Husband viewed the FDA Actions are about how Most Casual Readers would perceive it.

The Media Headlines I see echo the Same Thing... "FDA enacts regulations to prevent under aged usage.". Hey that's Friggin Great. But doesn't just about Every State have an 18+ age limit already?

It isn't until you start looking at what it will take Time and Cost wise to get a New Tobacco Product thru the FDA Maze that you start to understand what this Really is.

That's exactly it...use the phrase "protecting the children" and everyone is on board.....if they said we need to " choke out small businesses and recoup our losses now that our tobaccos products have killed our customers" everyone would turn on them
 

Lessifer

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And they really are going after the small business, open system, e-liquid manufacturers.

If your product is an e-liquid, not only do you have to provide data on the liquid itself, you have to run tests with your liquid, and if I'm reading it correctly, how it will be affected by being used in EVERY POSSIBLE COMPONENT. So every atomizer, every resistance, every wire type, TC, non-TC.

Or, just sell a sealed system with proprietary connections so you can ensure that your liquid/device combination is not used with anything else.
 

redrebel821

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And they really are going after the small business, open system, e-liquid manufacturers.

If your product is an e-liquid, not only do you have to provide data on the liquid itself, you have to run tests with your liquid, and if I'm reading it correctly, how it will be affected by being used in EVERY POSSIBLE COMPONENT. So every atomizer, every resistance, every wire type, TC, non-TC.

Or, just sell a sealed system with proprietary connections so you can ensure that your liquid/device combination is not used with anything else.
That's how I read it, too. Only BT will be able to sell their sealed, prefilled cartridges while all the small shops disappear.
 

Lessifer

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Being a California Democrat, contacting my representatives has always felt like a waste of time. I still do it, but I don't expect much.

Today I posted the following in the comments of posts on the FB pages of Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, and Doris Matsui(my assemblywoman):

I have been a lifelong democrat, voting in every election. However, my party has been letting me down. Democrats continually support the demonizing of vapor products, something that helped me kick a 20+ year smoking habit. If I don't start seeing democratic support for HR 2058 to at least stem the bleeding from the recent FDA deeming, I will be voting for change, even if that means Trump and other republicans. I hate to be a single issue voter, but lives are at stake. #HR2058
 

redrebel821

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Being a California Democrat, contacting my representatives has always felt like a waste of time. I still do it, but I don't expect much.

Today I posted the following in the comments of posts on the FB pages of Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, and Doris Matsui(my assemblywoman):

I have been a lifelong democrat, voting in every election. However, my party has been letting me down. Democrats continually support the demonizing of vapor products, something that helped me kick a 20+ year smoking habit. If I don't start seeing democratic support for HR 2058 to at least stem the bleeding from the recent FDA deeming, I will be voting for change, even if that means Trump and other republicans. I hate to be a single issue voter, but lives are at stake. #HR2058
I'm a Texas Democrat, I feel your pain. Contacting representatives has been a waste, not a single response. I did receive a very nice letter from Sen. John Cornyn, telling me how much he appreciated my interest in the FAA (yes, i meant to type FAA) legislation. This, after a very long and emotional letter describing how much I hated being a 36 year smoker and describing the multiple attempts to quit (including a 4 day trial of Chantix that almost hospitalized me) and how I finally quit on my first full day of vaping. I spilled it all....and that's what I got in return...sigh...
 
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