Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Poet, Mar 1, 2014.

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  1. Poet

    Poet Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Nov 23, 2013
    Location:
    New England
    I apologize if this has been posted before, if it has, I missed it. I've seen much discussion on diacetyl, yet mainly with butter, cream, and custard flavorings, not much beyond those. I found the following, which seems to indicate that nearly all the flavors we vape (if not individually, as part of a mix) may contain Diacetyl. Thoughts?

    https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html

    DIACETYL - BASED FLAVORS

    The following flavors may contain diacetyl [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Dairy Flavorings[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Hybrid Dairy
    Flavorings
    (Contains a substantial dairy content)[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Brown Flavorings[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Alcohol Flavorings[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Other Flavorings
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen, align: center"]Fruit Flavorings[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Butter[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Butter Pecan[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Butterscotch[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Brandy[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Nutmeg[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Strawberry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cheese[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Strawberry Crème[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Caramel[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Rum[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Honey[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cranberry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cream Cheese[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Vanilla Crème[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Vanilla[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Whisky[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Graham Cracker[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Raspberry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cheesecake[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Other Crème Flavors[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Coffee[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Pina Colada[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Vinegar[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Blackberry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Milk[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Root Beer Float[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Tea[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Meat flavors (e.g. gravy[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Boysenberry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Yogurt[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Chai[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Toffee[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Malt[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Other berry flavors[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Ice Cream[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Chocolate (esp. milk chocolate)[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Wine[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Fruit flavors -nearly any kind (e.g., banana, apple, grape, pear)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Egg[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cocoa[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Beer[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cider[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Ranch Dressing[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Cocoa Butter[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Tequila[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Tomato[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Sour Cream[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Maple[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Buttermilk[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Brown Sugar[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Mayonnaise[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Marshmallow[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Peanut Butter[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Praline[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Starter Distillate or Butter Starter Distillate[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"]Hazelnut & other nut flavors[/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [TD="class: blackTen"][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  2. Bklynzfinest

    Bklynzfinest Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Location:
    Brooklyn,NY
    I recently found this out also and personally I've chosen to switch to unflavored juice. Yes it's sad and I'm really going to miss all the delicious flavors out there but I'd much rather vape safe than end up needing a lung transplant in 10 years. I realize this post will not be a popular one, & I don't want to turn this into a debate or get political but to me it's just common sense. The truth is nobody knows the effects this will have on our lungs in 5-10 years, the information available regarding Diacetyl inhalation and the other 4 or 5 harmful Alpha-Diketones is enough to scare me away.

    Unfortunately when reputable vendors say their juice or flavoring is "diacetyl or diketone free" they are in no place to promise that. This is a substance that occurs NATURALLY in all of the above foods. So what they're really saying is, there wasn't any additional diacteyl or diketones added. What most people don't realize is you're getting it anyway. When more long term studies are published we will know more but for now, I simply know too much to just look the other way.
     
  3. chinolofus

    chinolofus Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    chicago
    this is why this stuff needs to be tested asap.
     
  4. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Iowa, IA, USA
    Yes, there are that many flavors containing diacetyl...and there are just as many that contain acetyl proprionyl & acetoin (other "butter" flavors), especially since diacetyl has been limited or removed from many 'vaping flavors'. Acetyl proprionyl has been shown to be just as dangerous as diacetyl. Acetoin is bad news, too (especially when combined with certain chemicals).

    Most don't seem to realize that it takes several hundred individual chemicals to create just one 'simple' flavor (like strawberry). Read more about 'flavor chemistry' here (a great overview, including info on 'natural flavors'): Food Labs Use An Average of 2000 Chemicals To Create 500 'Natural Flavors' You Would Never Suspect Are Artificial

    When we make a juice involving 4-5 flavors, we're actually chemists mixing THOUSANDS of (unknown mostly) chemicals. For example, when we mix coffee + chocolate + cream + other + vg + pg + nic...this is not the mere handful chemicals most imagine (vs the thousands found in burning tobacco plus the hundreds possible additives). An e-juice containing several compound flavors is also THOUSANDS of chemicals (plus all the chemicals that are formed by the chemical interactions & the heat).

    Of course, every natural plant & food also contains several hundred chemicals (even thousands), but there's a major difference between 'white chemical powder isolates & synthetics' and those found in natural foods where the levels, synergy & interactions have proven to be safe for ingestion throughout time.

    When health is a concern, we suggest doing everything possible to lessen the level of chemicals. Knowledge is the key :) Learn the tips n' tricks to keep the 'flavors' to a minimum:

    --use VG diluted with distilled water & saline solution rather than PG (or minimize the PG). PG is more dehydrating and has a musty flavor that can only be covered by using more chemicals. .9% sterile saline solution seriously ENHANCES flavors (which equals less chemicals needed), and it's very safe, hydrating & soothing to vape. Some say distilled water also enhances flavor a bit.

    --minimize or eliminate "additives" that are known to diminish flavor in a juice -- those are EM, vinegar, lemon juice/citric acid, and sucralose. We've been DIYing for almost a year, and have only used sucralose once or twice; we've used EM very sparingly. The one time we used more than a few drops of sucralose, 3-4 days later the juice was 'dead' (it really had lost 30-50% of it's flavor. Look at recipes - anytime one sees 1-3% sweetener or EM, invariably one sees high flavor percentages. One of us has a major sweet tooth - yet we've never needed added sweetener.

    --Vape Wizard, Magic Mask (FA) and Smooth (TFA) are chemical blends designed to 'take off rough edges' and smooth/enhance vapor. They do this not by changing or adding flavor/chemicals, but by a designer chemical cocktail that actually alters the actions of our taste buds/receptors temporarily. Like diacetyl, these chemicals are "approved as safe" for eating. Who knows what they'll alter 'temporarily' when mainlined into our bloodstream via inhalation.

    'Find the various tips/suggestions for using saline solution, as well as evidence of the additives diminishing flavor in the following thread, starting around Post #365 for the saline: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/268760-diy-master-techniques-flavor-add-ons-em-vw-bw-mts-acv-ect-10.html There are mentions of the saline and additives killing flavor throughout the thread.

    Back to diacetyl/similar; from here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document


    For Diacetyl, a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends in the draft document a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period.

    For 2,3-pentanedione [acetyl proprionyl], a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 9.3 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. The REL for 2,3-pentanedione in the draft document is based upon the lowest level at which the substance reliably can be detected using the existing analytical method, and should not be misconstrued to imply that 2,3-pentanedione is of lower toxicity than diacetyl. Further, NIOSH recommends a STEL of 31 ppb to limit peak exposures for 2,3-pentanedione on the same basis of analytic method limitation.

    How much is 5 - 25 parts per billion? It's 0000005% - 0000025%

    We have been almost entirely unable to find the percentage of the diacetyl/like chemicals contained in typical flavorings (GRRRRR) - but we did find a few from Baker Flavors in Russia http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbaker-flavors.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F03%2Fe-cigarettes.html (which is Vaping Zone's Gourmet Line). The Tiramisu contains the most at .6% diacetyl of the ones they tested back in 2010...and it's commonly mixed at 2%. Let's make 100ml :::p praying our math is correct::: ...

    100ml @ 2% flavoring = 2ml of Tiramisu flavoring in 100ml of liquid. 2 mls of Tiramisu flavoring contains .6% diacetyl (.6% x 2ml = .012mls of diacetyl)....so there's .012 ml of diacetyl in that 100mls of juice.

    What's the percentage of diacetyl in that 100mls of juice? .00012%

    Using this "ppb calculator" Parts Per Billion Conversion Chart (Fractions and Percent Converter, Percentages And Parts), we find one must enter 1200 ppb to equal .00012%

    So, vaping that particular flavoring at 2% means we'd be vaping 1200 parts per billion, when the 'safe zone' for short term exposure/inhalation is 25 parts per billion.

    Yes, we DO have reason to avoid these chemicals. Even if they're 50 or 75% less than the example, we'd still be in the 300-600 ppb zone. Of course, the raspberry flavor starts at .00009% diacetyl, and that works out to WAY less than 1ppb (around .012 ppb, if I calculated quickly correctly).

    'Always glad to see posters concerned about the health aspects of the chemicals we're inhaling!
     
  5. Banana Vap70

    Banana Vap70 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    were2cool, I'd love it if you were to post a few of your recipes. Ones that you two feel are fairly safe for inhalation. The more I understand about e juice, the more I feel like most really have no idea what they are doing, really meaning myself. I have so many of the flavors listed and I'm beginning to wonder what is really left?
     
  6. Sdh

    Sdh ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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  7. Banana Vap70

    Banana Vap70 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Well other then tobacco, I guess that leaves boiled beef and bone marrow. LOL
     
  8. Sdh

    Sdh ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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  9. GaryInTexas

    GaryInTexas Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    NE Texas, USA
    So almost every popular flavor that we use in vaping may contain diacetyl or the other harmful chemicals. Apparently even tiny amounts can cause permanent damage. My question is where are all the sick vapers? The flavors in their chart have been vaped by millions for several years now and I am not seeing people with these problems. I realize that diacetyl itself has been removed now but as far as I know the similar chemicals they are concerned about are still there. I would expect to see many vapers with breathing issues by now. Where are they?
    I agree this is a serious issue that needs clarification but I wonder if they were casting a wide net.
     
  10. Bklynzfinest

    Bklynzfinest Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Location:
    Brooklyn,NY
    The damage is cumulative & from what I've read Bronchiolitis obliterans typically develops within 5-10 years. One factory worker did get it within just 8 months though. The truth is everyone is different and there are different factors influencing that time table.

    "The symptoms can start gradually, or severe symptoms can occur suddenly.[3][6]"

    Vaping is still in it's infancy, we're still guinea pigs. Long term data cannot be established yet, but the information is out there on all of this. Everyone has the choice to do what they want here. I just wish this information was made better available to new vapers.. It's scary but people need to know about it. I definitely didn't until now.
     
  11. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Sep 2, 2013
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    under ground
    we2rcool, I'm glad you put the math there. Excellent demonstration of why "it's a fraction of a percent, must be just fine" isn't necessarily logical.

    We can avoid flavors with chemicals known to cause damage - if manufacturers tell us they are there OR if we learn to recognize the flavor. Diacetyl and the substitutes have a distinctive flavor that most people seem to enjoy. To me they smell and taste like rotten milk, and they turn my stomach after a few vapes. There's a popular vanilla custard flavor that I can't be in the same room with, though many people love it. I detect these chemicals in many popular flavorings and pre-mixed liquids. (and then I avoid them)

    With 100% VG plus water, I can reduce flavoring drastically without losing taste. Instead of 10-20% flavoring, I use around 1-2%. This is one way to reduce exposure. If you drop your flavoring percents gradually, it still tastes just as good. It helps to start with strong flavorings that require less.

    I increasingly rely on FlavourArt flavorings. Their Clearstream testing looks for all these chemicals, and their corporate website clearly states which are food use only (Kitchen Magic). Note: vape-related websites often sell FA's Kitchen Magic flavorings without the manufacturer's warning. This all applies to The Flavor Apprentice as well; you have to check the manufacturer's website before you buy. To my knowledge, these are the only 2 flavor manufacturers who look for and disclose presence of diacetyl substitutes. Some TFA flavorings include caramel color, which is another additive I avoid.

    Here's a tip for low-percent, multi-flavor recipes. Mix your flavorings alone in a small bottle. Label the bottle with your recipe name. Warm and shake that bottle to blend the flavors well. Now use that bottle as your flavoring. This way you can use 1% flavor of your "Every Fruit Known to Man" recipe without making a gallon of the stuff. This allows me to make tiny batches of complex recipes.
     
  12. Poet

    Poet Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Nov 23, 2013
    Location:
    New England
    It's not just diacetyl, acetoin, et al, but there is also cause for concern over colorings (I listed source and details below). As a recent vapor, I can definitely feel an improvement over when I was smoking. A substantial improvement. So my body is telling me that vaping is better than smoking. I am certain that not vaping at all would be better for me than vaping, but I like the act of smoking, so I choose what my body perceives as a safer alternative.

    On that same thinking I moved to DIY, because I didn't know what was in the mixes I bought. At least with DIY, I know, to an extent. Yet I still want more knowledge and more control. I know long term VG/PG alone is an unknown, but immediate results give me a feeling of drastic improvement in many ways over cigs...and long term cig use, I know those results. So I vape instead. Yet, I still want my vaping to be as safe as possible. I want to know what is in what I vape. I was a little shocked to see the listing showing daicetyl may be in so many flavors, I was working at avoiding it as much as possible for my own personal piece of mind. I am with what appears to be most people in that much more testing and disclosure is needed to help me make an informed choice for myself.

    SRC: Food Additives and colors


    Tartrazine - Yellow 5 - known to provoke asthma attacks (though the US FDA** do not recognize this) and urticaria (nettle rash) in children (the US FDA** estimates 1:10 000); also linked to thyroid tumors, chromosomal damage, urticaria (hives) and hyperactivity; tartrazine sensitivity is also linked to aspirin sensitivity; used to color drinks, sweets, jams, cereals, snack foods, canned fish, packaged soups; banned in Norway and Austria

    Quinoline Yellow - FD&C Yellow No.10; used in lipsticks hair products, colognes; also in a wide range of medications; cause dermatitis; banned in Australia, USA and Norway

    Yellow 7G - yellow color; the HACSG* recommends to avoid it; people who suffer Asthma may also show an allergic reaction to it; typical products are soft drinks; banned in Australia and USA

    Sunset Yellow FCF, Orange Yellow S - FD&C Yellow No.6; used in cereals, bakery, sweets, snack foods, ice cream, drinks and canned fish; synthetic; also in many medications including Berocca, Polaramine, Ventolin syrup; side effects are urticaria (hives), rhinitis (runny nose), nasal congestion, allergies, hyperactivity, kidney tumors, chromosomal damage, abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting, indigestion, distaste for food; seen increased incidence of tumors in animals; banned in Norway

    Cochineal, Carminic acid, Carmines - red color; made from insects; rarely used; the HASCG* recommends to avoid it

    Azorubine, Carmoisine - red color; coal tar derivative; can produce bad reactions in asthmatics and people allergic to aspirin; typical products are confectionary, marzipan, jelly crystals; banned in Sweden, USA, Austria and Norway

    Amaranth - FD&C Red No.2; derived from the small herbaceous plant of the same name; used in cake mixes, fruit-flavoured fillings, jelly crystals; can provoke asthma, eczema and hyperactivity; it caused birth defects and foetal deaths in some animal tests, possibly also cancer; banned in the USA, Russia, Austria and Norway and other countries

    Ponceau 4R, Cochineal Red A - FD&C Red No.4; synthetic coal tar and azo dye, carcinogen in animals, can produce bad reactions in asthmatics and people allergic to aspirin; banned in USA & Norway

    Erythrosine - FD&C Red No.3; red color used in cherries, canned fruit, custard mix, sweets, bakery, snack foods; can cause sensitivity to light; can increase thyroid hormone levels and lead to hyperthyroidism, was shown to cause thyroid cancer in rats in a study in 1990; banned in January 1990, but not recalled by the US FDA**; banned in Norway

    Red 2G - banned in Australia and many other places except UK

    Allura red AC - FD&C Red No.40; Orange-red color used in sweets, drinks and condiments, medications and cosmetics, synthetic; introduced in the early eighties to replace amaranth which was considered not safe due to conflicting test results; allura red has also been connected with cancer in mice; banned in Denmark, Belgium, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria and Norway

    Patent blue V - banned in Australia, USA and Norway

    Indigotine, Indigo carmine - FD&C Blue No.2, commonly added to tablets and capsules; also used in ice cream, sweets, baked goods, confectionary, biscuits, synthetic coal tar derivative; may cause nausea, vomiting, high blood pressure, skin rashes, breathing problems and other allergic reactions. banned in Norway

    Brilliant blue FCF - FD&C Blue Dye No.1; used in dairy products, sweets and drinks, synthetic usually occurring as aluminum lake (solution) or ammonium salt; banned in Belgium, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, Norway

    Green S - green color; synthetic coal tar derivative; used in canned peas, mint jelly and sauce, packet bread crumbs and cake mixes; banned inSweden, USA and Norway

    Plain caramel (Caustic sulphite caramel, Ammonia caramel, Sulphite ammonia caramel) - dark brown color made from sucrose; the HACSG* recommends to avoid it. used in oyster, soy, fruit and canned sauces, beer, whiskey, biscuits, pickles

    Brilliant Black BN, Black PN - coloor; coal tar derivative; used in brown sauces, blackcurrant cake mixes; banned in Denmark, Australia, Belgium, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, USA, Norway

    Vegetable carbon - black colour, charcoal pigment; used in jams, jelly crystals, liquorice; only the vegetable derived variety permitted in Australia, banned in the United States

    Brown FK - banned in USA

    Brown HT (Chocolate) - brown color, coal tar and azo dye; used in chocolate cake mixes; can produce bad reactions in asthmatics and people allergic to aspirin; also known to induce skin sensitivity; banned in Denmark, Belgium, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, USA, Norway

    Annatto (Arnatto, Annato), bixin, norbixin - red color; derived from a tree (Bixa orellana); used as a body paint, fabric dye, digestive aid and expectorant; used to dye cheese, butter, margarine, cereals, snack foods, soaps, textiles and varnishes; known to cause urticaria (nettle rash), the HACSG* recommends to avoid it

    Paprika extract, capsanthin, capsorubin - avoid it, banned in some countries

    * Hyperactive Children Support Group (HACSG)
     
  13. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2013
    Location:
    Iowa, IA, USA
    Our thoughts...

    Folks that drink a six-pack a night don't encounter serious/noticeable liver damage for years (even decades). Folks that smoke, don't have serious lung/heart damage for years (sometimes decades, depending upon what they smoked)...but most smokers notice compromise at some level relatively quickly.

    When we stop sucking in scorching smoke and tar, much of the lung symptoms subside substantially...as can be expected from a softer/cooler 'vape mist'. We breath easier = more oxygen = less stress to the heart and better circulation of more oxygenated blood. So it's very difficult to actually discern any short-term harm due to vaping because we're experiencing the relief of not coating our lungs with hot tar twenty-thirty times daily. End result: almost everyone that switches to vaping immediately feels better, so it's concluded "there's no doubt this is safer/better than smoking". But that is not necessarily true at all!

    We smoked organic tobacco for years before switching to vaping (we stuffed our own cigs). So there were no chemical additives (except what was in the paper). It was just plain crazy how much better we felt when we switched from 'store bought' to making our own with untreated tobacco sans the chemical additives - even with the scorching tar & hot smoke.

    We too, experienced less lung compromise immediately (less coughing, wheezing, etc). BUT, we felt substantially worse overall, and still do. (Fwiw: we have ingested strictly 'high organic' foods & beverages, absolutely no pharmaceutical drugs or OTC products and have used virtually no personal care or cleaning products containing 'chemicals' for almost 10 years. We have done many restorative herbal cleanses & juice fasts over the years to help repair 'the damage done' from living & eating on our heavily poisoned planet).

    When we started vaping we felt very similar to the way we feel when we ingest chemically-laden food or spend hours inhaling fumes in certain stores - except we experienced systemic dehydration, too (and remain dehydrated despite drinking well over a gallon of water daily). Adding the saline helped immensely, but we never feel completely hydrated. We're not suggesting that our experiences 'make a truth' - we just know what we've experienced (and how clearly we can discern the difference between low/high percentages of chemicals/flavors in our juices). We realize there are not very many folks that have totally 'given up chemicals' only to start them again in the form of vaping - so there's not very many that have a chance of discerning the various impacts of the chemicals.


    Absolutely agree with Bklynzfinest! Vaping is in it's infancy - we're all the guinea-pig-pioneers. Yes (!) this information should be made clearly available to everyone that starts vaping and DIYing - but frustratingly it's all too often looked upon as "anti vaping".

    It's our opinion that most are in the land of "Oh, I feel SO much better since I'm not scorching my lungs with hot tar/smoke, and can breath easier". It's really not easy to discern the negative impact of chemicals, additives & dehydration (past the dry mouth, sinuses & eyes symptoms). Those that do discern issues, commonly refer to themselves as 'sensitive', 'reactive' or 'allergic' to certain flavors or pg (rather than having a typical & harmful reaction to a chemical cocktail). And that's pretty-much what the majority of folks really want to believe.

    Another question is what part of 'whatever symptoms' (when something becomes apparent and/or bothersome) will be attributed to past smoking and/or 'other causes' instead of vaping? And what issues might have stayed latent if they hadn't had the vaping to jump start them (there's a direct correlation/concern over diacetyl crossing the blood brain barrier, and Alzheimers). And since the EMFs & low-level radiation from cell phones/wifi also break the blood brain barrier, just how much of these chemical soups are bypassing our normal defenses for a 'direct hit' to our brain? (Of course, the blood-brain issues are also there for smoking).

    Long-term, low level dehydration is no laughing matter all by itself, but most attribute the myriad of symptoms this triggers to other causes/diseases. Remember, we are vaping vg/pg directly into our bloodstream (bypassing 'first pass metabolism' of the GI tract and liver) - and vg/pg are both hygroscopic humectants (basically, they draw water to themselves). What happens to the various cells/components of our blood when water is drawn out of them 16 hours a day over months/years?

    And now the whole "vaping is SO much healthier than cigarettes mantra" is deeply ensconced in many already - so unless folks are coughing up a lung with obvious symptoms of Bronchiolitis obliterans, we honestly doubt the whole truth will be known for a very long time...if ever.

    Threads like this will certainly help us all to learn what we need to learn to create healthier vapes!
     
  14. chinolofus

    chinolofus Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    chicago
    lots of great info here. i think this definitely confirms i want to quite nicotine and vaping as soon as i can. im not keen on being a guinnea pig.
     
  15. baphomet68

    baphomet68 Full Member Verified Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2012
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
    I am interested in my health; I vape as a Harm Reduction strategy. Whatever the hidden/unknown risks, vaping seems like a less dangerous & destructive way to cope with my nicotine dependence. If I could just avoid addiction altogether, I would - but it is too late for that - I am well down the path. So it seems only responsible to mix my own juice - that way, at least then I know when any "unknown" flavoring ingredients are used.
    I think that while there are clearly some risks associated with vaping, I would not change much about how I was introduced to ecigs. It is my opinion that it is a safer, more healthy & less destructive behavior than smoking. Knowing about ecig health risks should not put persons off from vaping, so long as the candidate is a "good one" - as in, physically dependent on nicotine, w/a history of failed attempts to quit. It seems to me that it is the same as methadone in this respect - it is a less bad choice in a field of less-than-optimal options. If you have any better options - like just quitting, for instance - then just quit. Vaping has allowed me to put together years of life without cigarettes; while I feel I must do what I can to minimize the risks I am exposed to by vaping, it is the best choice open to me. It seems like there is alot of fuss & bother over folks confusing "Safer" with "Safe". Vaping is Safer than smoking; articulating the ways in which vaping poses health risks just restates the premise. Now we have "smoking exposes one to greater spectrum of health risks than the known risks of vaping".
    Nicotine replacement therapies demonstrate a weaker hold on physical addiction - persons addicted physically to nic. gum, patches, & inhalers are much less likely to maintain lifelong dependence. Although that may not be the case if you put together some frankenstein ejuice speedball, with Tobacco Absolute & WTA along with the nicotine - then you might have something with the features to sink its claws in deep.
     
  16. Joey13091

    Joey13091 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Location:
    Usa
    Scary stuff. Maybe time to quit before I spend more money.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
     
  17. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2011
    Location:
    The Motor City
    I suppose if one only expects to vape and live for another five to ten years, some of these issues won't matter too much. With the popularity of custard flavors and the ever increasing number of startup liquid makers, I think it's realistic to assume many are not aware of the effects of diacetyl, let alone food colorings. The same goes for those new to DIY - people regularly post about picking up flavorings at the supermarket. Most have never even heard of diacetyl, which is still a component of some flavorings.

    I suspect many of us started vaping thinking it would be only for a while, as a transition from smoking. Now that it has obviously become a long term part of our lives, these issues are really important. I plan on living for a couple more decades, so I think I should pay pretty close attention to the cumulative effect of what I inhale. If I want to ignore the long term risks, I might as well smoke.
     
  18. GaryInTexas

    GaryInTexas Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Location:
    NE Texas, USA
    I am not suggesting that anyone ignore the concerns with diacetyl. Nobody should be vaping anything with these in them in my opinion. The report cited indicated that they were also in fruit, nut, and berry flavorings. Virtually all of the current popular vaping flavors can be found in this listing. With millions of people vaping these very flavors, I would suspect that there should be some cases of lung issues showing up by now tied to these flavors since they have been used for several years.
    This report included pear, apple, grape, blackberry and nearly any kind of fruit. Are these really a diacetyl concern? This is the first time I've seen these flavors included and I have followed many of the diacetyl discussions on this forum.
    So what flavors are you going to vape now? Nic with VG or PG?
    That was the point of my comment. Should all vaping be flavorless now or did this report include some flavorings beyond the actual diacetyl concern.
     
  19. chinolofus

    chinolofus Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    chicago
    what about organic juices? im guessing they dont have all these chemicals.
     
  20. Hoosier

    Hoosier Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Location:
    Indiana
    Diacetyl is a naturally occurring chemical. I'd bet organic are more likely to have it, than not.

    (Note the study covers a wide range of flavoring types and has charts of those that "may" contain. There are artificial flavoring vendors that test for diacetyl, but I've never seen a natural flavoring vendor even want to talk about it.)
     

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