Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?
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doge" data-source="post: 12439842" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">doge said:
...I didn't even look at the date.
I would certainly HOPE they have by now, goodness.
I believe if one knows what chemicals to avoid (diketones) it will be easier to understand. An example is flavor apprentice Red Velvet Cake. I really wanted to buy this flavor. However, I made it a goal to research it like a school project. I did find out it contains Acetoin. Perfumer's Apprentice My choice: skip it. I just did a google search on vendors who sell e-liquid and this flavor pops up. I wonder if they know/or care about the properties of acetoin. What may seem insignificant to one, may present to others with compromise.
Diketone
A diketone is a molecule containing two ketone groups. The simpliest diketone is diacetyl, also known as 2,3-butanedione. Diacetyl, acetylacetone, and hexane-2,5-dione are examples of 1,2-, 1,3-, and 1,4-diketones, respectively. Wikipedia
Acetoin
Acetoin, also known as 3-hydroxybutanone or acetyl methyl carbinol, with the molecular formula is C4H8O2, is a colorless or pale yellow to green yellow liquid with a pleasant, buttery odor. Acetoin is a chiral molecule. Wikipedia
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_216580.html
I forgot to add the flavoring also had this chemical present as well. Acetyl propionyl http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...frbOgDUoVWna-SSYooHheYQ&bvm=bv.62577051,d.aWc
I am glad they have a msds/SDS on this product.
Diketone
A diketone is a molecule containing two ketone groups. The simpliest diketone is diacetyl, also known as 2,3-butanedione. Diacetyl, acetylacetone, and hexane-2,5-dione are examples of 1,2-, 1,3-, and 1,4-diketones, respectively. Wikipedia
Acetoin
Acetoin, also known as 3-hydroxybutanone or acetyl methyl carbinol, with the molecular formula is C4H8O2, is a colorless or pale yellow to green yellow liquid with a pleasant, buttery odor. Acetoin is a chiral molecule. Wikipedia
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_216580.html
I forgot to add the flavoring also had this chemical present as well. Acetyl propionyl http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...frbOgDUoVWna-SSYooHheYQ&bvm=bv.62577051,d.aWc
I am glad they have a msds/SDS on this product.
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The link from the OP is from 2010. By now, most of the popular DIY vendors state whether the flavorings are diacetyl free or not, and some even say whether they have other chemicals like acetoin. Hell, I even saw one of the flavorings SPECIFICALLY stating that it was not meant for inhalation. I'm questioning the validity of this link because of the date. It's most likely referring to flavorings in general used for many things other than vaping. Granted, vaping food flavorings is still a "who knows", but I highly doubt we have all been vaping traces of diacetyl.
If you are extremely scared, switch to below 10% flavoring, switch to unflavored, or don't inhale (take the vapor in your mouth and exhale through your nose/mouse). However I see no reason to panic. Citing years old articles where vaping wasn't as wide as it is now and refers to flavorings used in a wide variety of applications in general is very questionable.
If you are extremely scared, switch to below 10% flavoring, switch to unflavored, or don't inhale (take the vapor in your mouth and exhale through your nose/mouse). However I see no reason to panic. Citing years old articles where vaping wasn't as wide as it is now and refers to flavorings used in a wide variety of applications in general is very questionable.
Absolutely. This is years old... Reputable vendors have steered away from these questionable ingredients. I think its important to be informative, but quoting from out dated sources only brings unnecessary fear and skepticism to vaping. From my view, after 20 years of smoking cigs that contained over 2000 toxins and tar, I doubt a food flavoring is going to do me in.
Reputable vendors are highly aware of these questionable ingredients. They don't want a law suit. Lets see an updated list within the last year?..
Exactly. Also let's not forget the super crazy sub ohm crowd that vapes at .1-.3 ohms on RDAs going through 8+ ml per day lung hitting. You'd think that kind of concentration and exposure would have had an impact by now.
Let's see an updated version where they test the current flavorings we use for vaping from our known suppliers. Otherwise that article serves more as a fear mongering tool rather than awareness.
Wow... I am suddenly a bit more relaxed.. Been so bummed out since reading this thread several days ago. *takes a nice satisfying draw off the ol' PV*
There is way, way, too much fear mongering going on in here by people who have no expertise in what is being discussed. First, this article is from 2010. Since then TFA, Capella, and other major vendors have changed/changing what they use. You can ask them this. Capella is making new flavors with the vaping community in mind. I can't help but roll my eyes and hard not to dismiss information being posted by someone who is wrapped up in the health buzzword of organic. Linking to a website that is everything in this world is terrible and will kill you, oh and vaccines are bad for you, doesn't help either.
Yes, I would like to see actual analysis done, but I want it in context. 1 PPB is not going to make any sense or do any good to your average person. What we need to know is X flavoring contains X amount of X chemical and poses no risk, or X flavoring contains X amount of X chemical and here are the risks. Giving us raw numbers leads to couch scientists interpreting it in their own way.
Yes, I would like to see actual analysis done, but I want it in context. 1 PPB is not going to make any sense or do any good to your average person. What we need to know is X flavoring contains X amount of X chemical and poses no risk, or X flavoring contains X amount of X chemical and here are the risks. Giving us raw numbers leads to couch scientists interpreting it in their own way.
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This thread alerted me to what diacetyl is and alarmed me so I started researching. So far all my flavors have come from TFA/TPA so I did some checking on their webpage and fround this Perfumer's Apprentice. It has MSDS on all their flavors and a list of the specific chemicals and approximate percentages (not exact due to trade secrets) anyway...hope this helps somebody. I am going to continue researching for my own curiosity sake, but I still feel safer vaping than smoking.
This study/paper/whatever is 2 years old but states second hand tobacco smoke contains around 200ppm of diacetyl http://www.chemrisk.com/publications/Finley%20SRA.pdf
And finally, this document Determination of toxic carbonyl compounds in... [Environ Toxicol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI states there is about .3mg diacetyl in a cigarette.
I was 'happy' to smoke for 10+ years and I don't think vaping ingredients contain this level of diacetyl. I am by no means an expert, this is info I found in less than an hour with some simple searching, but I do feel vaping has less risks in this area.
This study/paper/whatever is 2 years old but states second hand tobacco smoke contains around 200ppm of diacetyl http://www.chemrisk.com/publications/Finley%20SRA.pdf
And finally, this document Determination of toxic carbonyl compounds in... [Environ Toxicol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI states there is about .3mg diacetyl in a cigarette.
I was 'happy' to smoke for 10+ years and I don't think vaping ingredients contain this level of diacetyl. I am by no means an expert, this is info I found in less than an hour with some simple searching, but I do feel vaping has less risks in this area.
No. They don't have to. Very summarized version:It's safe to ingest, and that's how it's marketed. Several manufacturers that are popular with vapers have eliminated diacetyl - yet some of them now use substitute chemicals that are equally dangerous to inhale. Even fewer disclose their use of the substitutes. Read this whole thread for details.
The OP's link is not outdated. It is current OSHA safety info. The health effects have not changed since 2010 - so neither has the date of that bulletin.
It's funny how this forum is either 'cheer or fear'. This topic, for instance, for about 8 pages was 'omg', 'disappointed', 'scared', '*puts pv down*' etc..Then someone pointed out that the study is 4 years old and everyone in the past page or so has been like 'yeah' 'feeling relaxed' 'outdated' 'fear-mongering' etc...
Well, how about we try to contribute, rather than jump on either bandwagon.
Before starting, imo this thread should be either in the New Members Area, in the FAQ, or in the Health Forum -- not in the DIY Forum that is addressed to a small minority of vapers.
This having been said, let's proceed to the point with my two suggestions.
(1) First, how about compiling a list of suppliers that claim to be Diacetyl-free (as well as free of all the hazardous substitutes) as well as a list of suppliers that can prove it? Personally, I would be glad to contribute to those two lists; I already have 1 supplier in mind that at least claims to be Diacetyl-free.
(2) Secondly, how about clearly enumerating the alternatives to buying eliquid from suppliers on these hypothetical lists of (1)? From what I have understood, unflavoured PG or VG appears to be one alternative(?)
If any useful conclusions are to be drawn (and such conclusions are certainly not completely black or completely white, as many people here, consciously or otherwise, portray them), there needs to be some systematisation to this discussion. My two suggestions are minded towards such systematisation.
Well, how about we try to contribute, rather than jump on either bandwagon.
Before starting, imo this thread should be either in the New Members Area, in the FAQ, or in the Health Forum -- not in the DIY Forum that is addressed to a small minority of vapers.
This having been said, let's proceed to the point with my two suggestions.
(1) First, how about compiling a list of suppliers that claim to be Diacetyl-free (as well as free of all the hazardous substitutes) as well as a list of suppliers that can prove it? Personally, I would be glad to contribute to those two lists; I already have 1 supplier in mind that at least claims to be Diacetyl-free.
(2) Secondly, how about clearly enumerating the alternatives to buying eliquid from suppliers on these hypothetical lists of (1)? From what I have understood, unflavoured PG or VG appears to be one alternative(?)
If any useful conclusions are to be drawn (and such conclusions are certainly not completely black or completely white, as many people here, consciously or otherwise, portray them), there needs to be some systematisation to this discussion. My two suggestions are minded towards such systematisation.
Looks like there is going to be some serious testing at Roswell Hospital in Buffalo. I hope the testing provides us some good news with vaping.
Roswell Park study: are E-cigs safer than cigarettes? | Buffalo News, Buffalo Weather | WIVB-TV News 4 Buffalo, NY | WIVB.com
Roswell Park study: are E-cigs safer than cigarettes? | Buffalo News, Buffalo Weather | WIVB-TV News 4 Buffalo, NY | WIVB.com
So far this thread has revealed these flavorings free of diacetyl and substitutes:
certain flavors by TFA
certain flavors by FlavourArt
the "Eurphorics" line by euphoricvapers
one Capella flavoring currently in development: a new version of their Vanilla Custard
Do you know of other flavorings free of diacetyl and substitutes?
my concern about such a study is the source and range of e-cig products being tested...will they use e-cigs from the nearest gas station and leave it at that or will they look at the broad spectrum of products as represented here on the ECF forums?
No. But we know that VapingZone's Gourmet line (from Baker Flavors in Russia) has diacetyl in many of their flavors - and VZ doesn't disclose that anywhere on the site. So that put's their SC line in question as well...as no one has been able to find that source to check.
NN flavors are diacetyl free, but I've recently seen on their thread that they use acetoin
HeadInClouds, good job in starting the list..!! I thought a British company called ukecigstore claimed to be diacetyl-free but apparently i cross-checked and that is not so (maybe it never was and I was wrong all along or maybe they removed that info in the meantime(?)).
What makes me worry a bit is the fact that I have tried Flavourart eliquid and it tastes VEERY different than anything else I have tried! Not necessary worse or better, but very different!!!
What makes me worry a bit is the fact that I have tried Flavourart eliquid and it tastes VEERY different than anything else I have tried! Not necessary worse or better, but very different!!!
I cross-checked and I was either mistaken, or the supplier I had in mind changed its 'no diacetyl' disclaimer in the meantime! HeadInClouds, post #93, gave a helpful starting list. I also found this very helpful thread that I had bookmarked but had forgotten about for a while:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-please-keep-just-listing-supplier-names.html
By the way, re-reading the OP of this thread, I figured that flavours such as tobacco and menthol are not listed. Does that mean there is no risk for diacetyl&substitutes to occur therein? Equally, is such risk also minimal in respect of unflavoured pg/vg?
this should be moved to a forum that gets more views...or at least reposted there.
Agreed. Maybe the general E-Cig xsection? I doubt it would be good in the new member section, simply because it would scare the CRAP out of new vapers. Second, because that forum moves pretty fast with new members trying to get their counts up to full member. So unless it was stickied or frequently bumped it would get lost in the shuffle.
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