Should be in the general e liquid forum so that everyone looking at juice info would see it.
Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?
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All I hope for is an unbiased and accurate test that is not agenda driven.
Wethinks that a thread about the chemicals in the flavors that we use to create juices is very appropriate for the DIY forum!
It's the same chemicals in the flavors that the people purchasing finished juices are inhaling too. If everyone is aware, that will force the flavor vendors to be a little more proactive and forth coming with info about their flavors.
Every time this gets discussed in diy, I feel like it's such an important topic for all vapers that it should be brought up in the General forum. But then I'm reminded why I like this sub so much- because of threads like this with earnest discussion/debate without much drama- and think that General would turn it into some useless dogmatic debate.
I guess what I'm saying is I really appreciate these thoughtful discussions in diy
I guess what I'm saying is I really appreciate these thoughtful discussions in diy
I agree, I only stumbled across this thread by accident. But I know there are plenty that buy already made juices, more than there are DIYers I'd bet. I don't make my own, I'd have never have heard of this if not for stumbling in here.
kinda ridiculous that important information like this can't be put in a General thread in fear of a little bickering. Of course this info should be available to as many vapers as possible (for obvious reasons), but also, the more vapers that are aware the more pressure on the venders to choose only flavor concentrates that are diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl free.
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I think this is a good forum to discuss these issues because it's the flavoring vendors where the testing and assurances must come from. If a liquid maker tells us that they were told that all the flavorings they use are diacetyl or ketone free, that's second hand. Many liquid makers don't want to reveal their flavoring sources, so it's more meaningful to me to get the straight unvarnished truth from the flavoring suppliers themselves. If testing is being done, it should start at the flavoring level.
As an example, two popular liquid vendors acknowledged recently that they had found out that there were traces of diacetyl in one or more of their liquids, and revised those liquids. I respect their honesty in pointing this out to their customers. I believe in both cases they found this out from their flavoring vendor.
This also makes me even more sure I want to continue to grow my DIY skills, and I appreciate all the knowledge I've gained in the DIY forum. Saving money was one of my major objectives, but I feel that making informed, safer choices is becoming one of the bigger benefits too.
As an example, two popular liquid vendors acknowledged recently that they had found out that there were traces of diacetyl in one or more of their liquids, and revised those liquids. I respect their honesty in pointing this out to their customers. I believe in both cases they found this out from their flavoring vendor.
This also makes me even more sure I want to continue to grow my DIY skills, and I appreciate all the knowledge I've gained in the DIY forum. Saving money was one of my major objectives, but I feel that making informed, safer choices is becoming one of the bigger benefits too.
I am not a DiYer, and don't plan on being (well...maybe I can be convinced...) but I'm following this thread because I am concerned, and want to buy the safest eliquids that will keep me off smokes. Flavor free would not do that for me at this time. I see many vapers getting really excited about all these trendy flavors from new vendors on-line that give little information about their products or facilities. I want to be as informed as possible. Thank you all for your input!
For your chemistry notes, all info from OSHA:
"Diacetyl substitutes that have not been proven to be safe include diacetyl trimer, 2,3 hexanedione, 2,3 heptanedione, and 2,3 pentanedione."
Synonyms for two popular diacetyl substitutes, aka "custard notes" aka "diacetyl-related diketones":
acetoin: Acetyl methyl carbinol; 1-Hydroxyethyl methyl ketone; gamma-Hydroxy-beta-oxobutane; 3-hydroxy-2-butanone; 2,3-butanolone; Dimethylketol
acetyl propionyl: acetyl propanal; ß,γ-dioxopentane; beta, gamma-dioxopentane; 2,3-pentadione; 2,3-pentanedione
"Diacetyl substitutes that have not been proven to be safe include diacetyl trimer, 2,3 hexanedione, 2,3 heptanedione, and 2,3 pentanedione."
Synonyms for two popular diacetyl substitutes, aka "custard notes" aka "diacetyl-related diketones":
acetoin: Acetyl methyl carbinol; 1-Hydroxyethyl methyl ketone; gamma-Hydroxy-beta-oxobutane; 3-hydroxy-2-butanone; 2,3-butanolone; Dimethylketol
acetyl propionyl: acetyl propanal; ß,γ-dioxopentane; beta, gamma-dioxopentane; 2,3-pentadione; 2,3-pentanedione
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Oops, 'didn't mean to imply the information isn't important to all vapers everywhere. Rather, we just wanted to confirm how appropriate it is for DIYers
I agree! Roswell is still looking for participants in the study. They will pay $50 for a one-time check-up and questionnaire. If you are interested, call 845-4916. (maybe I can buy a new piece of equipment with the 50)
In the Niagara region we have new shops opening every month...
I am praying for positive results!!!! I have quit smoking analogs because of vaping.
This is very important information!
When Im on the Dog Forum...I always have the wrong breed.. and im not feeding and walking it properly..and it may kill people,
When Im on the motorcycle forum...I have the wrong bike ...and using the wrong oil ...and I may end up dead from falling.
When im on the ecig forum...I have the wrong device...and the wrong eliquid.. and flavor,,,,and its dangerous and probably deadly
When Im on the Dog Forum...I always have the wrong breed.. and im not feeding and walking it properly..and it may kill people,
When Im on the motorcycle forum...I have the wrong bike ...and using the wrong oil ...and I may end up dead from falling.
When im on the ecig forum...I have the wrong device...and the wrong eliquid.. and flavor,,,,and its dangerous and probably deadly
It's really simple. Get a poodle, ride a moped, and vape unflavored.
Me, I'm just going to continue my life using common sense and wait for further credible info and enjoy my flavors.
Agreed mostly absolutely! BUT...
...how is anyone to make an informed choice when somewhere between 300-500 chemicals go into the creation of just ONE single flavor - and none of them are listed on any type of ingredient list anywhere?
We learned about the dangers of diacetyl/similar due to factory workers inhaling them for years - so now there's information to be found.
What about the 'other thousands' of unidentified chemicals we're all vaping daily? Just one of the thousands (diacetyl) has now been found to CROSS THE BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER and it's actions correlate strongly with Alzheimers The butter flavorant, diacetyl, exacerbates... [Chem Res Toxicol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
So much for the ole "GRAS" label having any validity, eh? (but that's nothing new for those that know the history of the food/chemical "authorities").
Chemicals. Thousands. Totally unknown to us (except the 3 that were found to destroy lungs & publicized).
WE are the long-term studies. And that's not fear-mongering, that's just a plain ole fact.
I caved and got a Border Collie, ride a Harley Fatboy, use a Provari and only vape Bobas Bounty.
I should be good for a few weeks until the Surgeon General report comes out the same time as the new edition of Consumer Reports.
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You could apply most of those same fears to food we eat, esp. convience foods. I think an earlier article in this thread mentioned what was in orange juice.
I hope/wish/want eliquid manufacturers to be as transparent as possible, however most don't want to reveal flavor sources or "secrets'" and unfortunatley I see this trend growing with "premium" lines; some of which don't even want to disclose PG/VG ratios.
Vote with your wallet. If an eliquid manufacturer is not transparent enough (or flavoring company) then don't buy it. I know I'm getting a little tired of hearing "natural" and "organic" when it comes to flavors because the reality is they are all mixing molecules at that level and there's very little difference. It's quite possible that those making their own extractions might even know less about what compounds they contain.
I just don't see anyway around some risk if you vape. Just remember that vaping is tobacco harm reduction only. The only way to assure your doing no harm is to quit smoking AND vaping (or any other forums of THR). Other than that is to make the best choices you can with the information you have.
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