FDA Fresh Insights into Tobacco Regulation

[twgbonehead]

One of the many reasons I started stockpiling a year ago and am now just picking up a few odds and ends now. Because those tobacco regulations also include not being able to use a credit card to purchase tobacco products.

I remember way back when, I had a standing monthly order with one of the Indian tribes that sold online. Once a month, they would charge my cc and ship me 6 cartons of cigarettes. Around 2005-ish, that cc prohibition came into being and I had to switch to electronic check for payment.

So I assume once e-cigs are 'deemed' as tobacco, that cc restriction will fall on them too.

There may be some outs. For example, FastTech can't use paypal for certain items (but they can for most of their vaping items!). So, if you want to use paypal, you order something else that costs the same amount. Then cancel the order, and get an FT credit. Use that credit to buy the other item.

You get your vape gear, but as far as PP is concerned, you just bought a "Swedish Manhood Enlarger" (complete with manual).

Perhaps online vape shops should start enlarging their scope - Suppose every vaping item page showed a "People who bought this also bought" selection (at the same price as the vaping item).

Just thinkin' here...

 

[DC2]

So I assume once e-cigs are 'deemed' as tobacco, that cc restriction will fall on them too.

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think that is part of the deeming regulations.

I used to have a handy list of what "would" be included in the deeming regulations if applied without modification.
But I can't find that anymore.

 

[squee]

I know that doesn't effect Fasttech as such (nor any of the other foreign sellers - focal, Ali, etc) And FT is only declined when an item is listed as Authentic - it gets kicked for copyright infringement (even though it is authentic, ft isn't an authorized reseller)

BUT... it's always in the back of my head how much of this came to be - with customs seizing shipments, that's why NJOY sued. Add to that, what I am anticipating to be a virtual regulation frenzy at the local level once the deeming regs are finalized. I think there are a whole lotta states that have been waiting for that to be official, so they can then start a whole new batch of nonsense with those federal regs to back them up.

I think that's one of the big reasons Zeller has been so cautious and careful to tread

 

[twgbonehead]

If nicotine base was marketed in the United States prior to the grandfather date then it might escape the deeming regulations...

But I don't think it was marketed in the United States prior to the grandfather date.
So I don't see a reason why it would escape the deeming regulations either.

Well, I don't think it matters if it was marketed, as long as it was sold to the public.

But that still doesn't let it totally off the hook. A vendor who wasn't selling prior to the grandfather date would still have to file a CE application, and get it approved. (And if you think that's an easy process, take a look at the over 3000 SE applications still sitting in the FDA's IN box, vs the maybe 30 they have actually acted on - and I think that about half of those).

Check out this link:
Comments by Bill Godshall and Smokefree Pennsylvania urge FDA to reject Deeming Regulation, correct fear mongering claims about e-cigs | E-Cigarette Forum

FDA still hasn't taken final action on about 4,000 SE reports for different cigarette, smokeless tobacco and RYO brands. Although FDA hasn't provided any numbers, it appears likely that cigarettes comprise 50%-75% of all SE reports that were submitted to FDA. While FDA has now approved 46 SE orders for cigarette brands, it is very likely the agency will approve >1,000 more SE orders for cigarette brands within the next several years, as Mitch Zeller has promised to make processing the huge backlog of SE reports a priority.

Filing an SE application is a completely different thing then getting an SE approval. And guess what? The 2-year grace period is all you get, even if the FDA takes 20 years to act on your SE. (At the rate they're going, more like 100 years).

 

[twgbonehead]

I know that doesn't effect Fasttech as such (nor any of the other foreign sellers - focal, Ali, etc)

It's got nothing to do with FastTech. If my (American) credit-card company won't authorize the payment, I can't order from them.

There are lots of international gambling sites, which are legal in the area they exist, and accessible via the internet. Try placing a bet on them when your credit and debit cards won't work, and your bank refuses to do a transfer to them.

 

[squee]

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think that is part of the deeming regulations.

You did know I'd have to quote you on that, right?

But this isn't about the deeming, or TCP or PACT - this goes back to 2005

Can't use credit cards to buy tobacco online? (And other bull....) - Democratic Underground

 

[Kent C]

If nicotine base was marketed in the United States prior to the grandfather date then it might escape the deeming regulations...

But I don't think it was marketed in the United States prior to the grandfather date.
So I don't see a reason why it would escape the deeming regulations either.

During my 'RYO' days prior to ecigs, there was one company that the people of the RYO forum were using at the time for flavorings and they sold a nic base. I don't recall mgs - would have had no idea what it was at the time :- ) And with that recall, there follows the fact that people and companies have been using flavorings in pipe tobacco for centuries without much 'fuss' being made about flavors that may be inhaled??? Maybe Dr. F should look into that as well.

 

[squee]

It's got nothing to do with FastTech. If my (American) credit-card company won't authorize the payment, I can't order from them.

Oh sorry, those comments were about Paypal, not credit card usage

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...wonder if insecticide will still be available and in what form.

 

[squee]

there follows the fact that people and companies have been using flavorings in pipe tobacco for centuries without much 'fuss' being made about flavors that may be inhaled???

One of the flavoring brands available at ECX is Tasty Puff. They were and are made specifically for dripping a couple drops onto your cigarette to flavor it (since they made flavored cigs illegal) Those instructions/directions are right on the bottle label.

And if anyone who does DIY hasn't tried them yet, I HIGHLY recommend the Root Beer flavor. It's absolutely fantastic!

 

[DC2]

Well, I don't think it matters if it was marketed, as long as it was sold to the public.

I don't know exactly what difference there is between "sold" and "marketed" but the wording specifically says "marketed" for whatever that's worth.

 

[DC2]

...wonder if insecticide will still be available and in what form.

Based on my research it doesn't look like there are any nicotine-based pesticides at this time...
Nicotine | Pesticides | US EPA
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/nicotine_red.pdf

The registrant of the sole remaining
nicotine pesticide product requested the cancellation of its registration on February 25,
2008, to be effective on December 31, 2013, with existing stocks permitted to be sold by
dealers and distributors for one additional year.

Also, the PDF document goes into some detail as to what it would take to get a nicotine pesticide approved.

 

[twgbonehead]

Oh sorry, those comments were about Paypal, not credit card usage

Yeah, but the strategy works with PayPal too. Buy something they allow, cancel the order and get "store credit", use that credit to buy what you really wanted, and you can be vaping on your "Swedish ***** Enlarger" in no time! Groovy, Man!

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Based on my research it doesn't look like there are any nicotine-based pesticides at this time...
Nicotine | Pesticides | US EPA
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/REDs/nicotine_red.pdf

Also, the PDF document goes into some detail as to what it would take to get a nicotine pesticide approved.

I wonder of the efficacy for pest control of 100mg/ml nicotine in a PG or VG base. If ants show up in my kitchen again, I may give it a test. (there are no children (other than myself) or pets in this household.)

 

[Rossum]

Yeah, I was pretty sure Rossum understood this, which is why I was befuddled by his post.

My primary point is that the door on acquiring nic base isn't going to slam shut in June (or whenever the final deeming reg becomes effective). The proposed deeming reg gave a 2 year grace period to file an SE or PMA application, and IIRC, the proposed regs also implied that products would be allowed to remain on the market beyond the 2-year deadline for however long it took for the FDA to evaluate the applications, provided applications had actually been filed.

In fact, if the FDA actually wants to clamp down on nic base, it might be quicker for them to propose a new set of regs just for purpose rather than trying to use the deeming reg (at least as the proposal was written). The deeming reg, once effective, certainly allows for that. And the comment from Mr. Zeller I quoted implied something like that might indeed happen.

In any case, I believe we have longer than just until June to stock up.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

My primary point is that the door on acquiring nic base isn't going to slam shut in June (or whenever the final deeming reg becomes effective). The proposed deeming reg gave a 2 year grace period to file an SE or PMA application, and IIRC, the proposed regs also implied that products would be allowed to remain on the market beyond the 2-year deadline for however long it took for the FDA to evaluate the applications, provided applications had actually been filed.

In fact, if the FDA actually wants to clamp down on nic base, it might be quicker for them to propose a new set of regs just for purpose rather than trying to use the deeming reg (at least as the proposal was written). The deeming reg, once effective, certainly allows for that. And the comment from Mr. Zeller I quoted implied something like that might indeed happen.

In any case, I believe we have longer than just until June to stock up.

Thanks for the post, Rossum. I've been looking for a little clarity on the potential process ahead.

 

[Rossum]

Well, we won't really KNOW until we see the final deeming reg, but I can't imagine it will directly impose things that weren't covered in the proposal.

 

[caramel]

....and then, one day, out of the blue, you'll see something like this:

 

[SeniorBoy]

Well, we won't really KNOW until we see the final deeming reg, but I can't imagine it will directly impose things that weren't covered in the proposal.

Thank you. Exactly Look at the issue from the FDA's point of view with respect to "flavors" "NIC" and "component parts". None of which are properly documented in the deeming with any details as you point out and in IMHO the same tactic will be deployed in the final rule in the federal registry. The reason the FDA is "silent" on these issue is because they have "Enforcement Discretion" so take a gander at this google querry to see:

fda discression - Google Search

Thus the FDA wants the "path of least resistance" to place the final rule under the TCA and IMHO, that's exactly how it's going to play out. Or, as others have said...they don't have to get specific!

 

[skoony]

One of the many reasons I started stockpiling a year ago and am now just picking up a few odds and ends now. Because those tobacco regulations also include not being able to use a credit card to purchase tobacco products.

I remember way back when, I had a standing monthly order with one of the Indian tribes that sold online. Once a month, they would charge my cc and ship me 6 cartons of cigarettes. Around 2005-ish, that cc prohibition came into being and I had to switch to electronic check for payment.

So I assume once e-cigs are 'deemed' as tobacco, that cc restriction will fall on them too.

this could easily be done with PG/VG and Flavorings.
mike