Hello all!

[Truthdog]

Some of us would make you look like a lightweight.

Just kiddin'. Some of us have been politically deep for many years and end up on the losing side more than the winning side so we are quite cynical of politicians and unelected regulators. We can cite 19.3 trillion reasons why. So we get our rocks off when we can shove their crap back in their faces. Nothing beats their big money donors better than the fear of their constituents voting them out of office.

You're right about that Bronze. The system ain't good, but as they say, either you are at the table, or you are on the menu. We're at war, need all willing soldiers. The more of us there are, the more scared / responsive they will be! Thanks much!


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[DingerCPA]

Woot!

Hey, howdy @Truthdog. Thanks for being another voice!

 

[Truthdog]

Some of us would make you look like a lightweight.

Just kiddin'. Some of us have been politically deep for many years and end up on the losing side more than the winning side so we are quite cynical of politicians and unelected regulators. We can cite 19.3 trillion reasons why. So we get our rocks off when we can shove their crap back in their faces. Nothing beats their big money donors better than the fear of their constituents voting them out of office.

You're right about that Bronze. The system ain't good, but as they say, either you are at the table, or you are on the menu. We're at war, need all willing soldiers. The more of us there are, the more scared / responsive they will be! Thanks much!


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[The Ocelot]

Hi Mike!

Thank you for joining! Below is a link to a letter I sent Sen. Ron Johnson's committee with a couple of thoughts I had while reading the the Final Regulatory Impact Analysis (Docket No. FDA-2014-N-0189).

SAMPLE LETTERS - For Congress, State, Commissioners

 

[NotSoMini]

Welcome — it is great to have you here. Will support you wherever I can.

 

[bnrkwest]

Thanks Bnrkwest, I guess the best answer is "not necessarily". If vapor products want to market as a "Modified Risk tobacco Product (MRTP) the FDA has a separate (also impossible) application process for that. But I think our goal is to win in the court of public perception and the Congress will make new rules for us that FDA will have to implement. Thanks my take, and I think we as a community can get that done (I'm only stockpiling a little


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Thanks, so our best hope is vape becomes like the next snus?

 

[OlderNDirt]

Thanks, @Truthdog for joining ECF and rallying the troops. As long as there are no age restrictions, sign me up and I'll fall into formation!

 

[Truthdog]

Some of us would make you look like a lightweight.

Just kiddin'. Some of us have been politically deep for many years and end up on the losing side more than the winning side so we are quite cynical of politicians and unelected regulators. We can cite 19.3 trillion reasons why. So we get our rocks off when we can shove their crap back in their faces. Nothing beats their big money donors better than the fear of their constituents voting them out of office.

You're right about that Bronze. The system ain't good, but as they say, either you are at the table, or you are on the menu. We're at war, need all willing soldiers. The more of us there are, the more scared / responsive they will be! Thanks much!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Truthdog]

Hi Mike!

Thank you for joining! Below is a link to a letter I sent Sen. Ron Johnson's committee with a couple of thoughts I had while reading the the Final Regulatory Impact Analysis (Docket No. FDA-2014-N-0189).

SAMPLE LETTERS - For Congress, State, Commissioners

Thanks Ocelot, That's a great letter. As you know the Reg Flexibility Act compliance is a major problem with this regulation. Several lawsuits are going after them on that, nevertheless, we need to replace this regulation by Act of Congress to be durable. Some are suggesting an easier application process, but I still think changing the date from 2007 to Aug 2016 is the simplest approach to save all current products.

I met with the Homeland Security Committee staff a couple of times in that last few weeks, and we at SFATA are trying to support them. The problem is they have no data with which to rebut FDA. I connected them with the Vapor Map and other sources, but they really do lack good data on retail stores and manufacturers. I imagine if FDA continues to be non-responsive, they will hold a hearing on these issues, which will be good, but not solve our immediate problem.

Again, the bottom line is that we have several Senate Republicans with us, but no Dems in the Senate willing to be a lead for us. We're working everyday on that. Thanks for your help!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Thanks for being here.
There are some states that have already enacted new laws pertaining to the sale and taxes paid. Have you looked at the impact these new laws have had on the vaping community? Indiana is especially hit hard as is Utah and Ca. Maybe some evidence can point to the utter devastation this had on the vaping business let alone the people put out of work.
Thanks for any replies.

 

[Truthdog]

Thanks for being here.
There are some states that have already enacted new laws pertaining to the sale and taxes paid. Have you looked at the impact these new laws have had on the vaping community? Indiana is especially hit hard as is Utah and Ca. Maybe some evidence can point to the utter devastation this had on the vaping business let alone the people put out of work.
Thanks for any replies.

You're right SnS, but these 3 laws are new this year, so effects are slow (maybe less in IN) and hard to measure scientifically. We do have professional folks working the legislatures in all of these states, and plans to change these laws if possible after negative effects are seen.
I really do think we are gaining some traction in the public discourse, tho the grant-addicted "public health" community is making up crap as fast as we can knock it down. Some (Mr. Glantz) are outright fabricators! But if we win in the court of public opinion, the states and Congress will follow. Conversely, as long as the press and politicians can scare people with the whole "they're going after your children" ruse, we'll be stuck, IMHO.

 

[Eskie]

Thanks Ocelot, That's a great letter. As you know the Reg Flexibility Act compliance is a major problem with this regulation. Several lawsuits are going after them on that, nevertheless, we need to replace this regulation by Act of Congress to be durable. Some are suggesting an easier application process, but I still think changing the date from 2007 to Aug 2016 is the simplest approach to save all current products.

I met with the Homeland Security Committee staff a couple of times in that last few weeks, and we at SFATA are trying to support them. The problem is they have no data with which to rebut FDA. I connected them with the Vapor Map and other sources, but they really do lack good data on retail stores and manufacturers. I imagine if FDA continues to be non-responsive, they will hold a hearing on these issues, which will be good, but not solve our immediate problem.

Again, the bottom line is that we have several Senate Republicans with us, but no Dems in the Senate willing to be a lead for us. We're working everyday on that. Thanks for your help!

Have you seen this article out of the Harvard School of Public Health? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/e-cigarette-quandary/ Not that the article itself is helpful or proof to offer, it is written for layman, but it gives a nice insight into the stirrings among tobacco researchers, and even addresses the ambivalence about these regs by the current Surgeon General. Might be a source of contacts who could be persuaded to show the committee there really are two sides to this, and we might be losing one of the best tools to date to decrease cigarette use in the US, and the rest of the world (although we can focus on the US for now, let's get our own house in order).

Not to to say it will all turn out rainbows and sunshine, but it is about time serious consideration given to harm reduction when harm elimination remains an untenable goal, at least through this generation.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

But if we win in the court of public opinion, the states and Congress will follow. Conversely, as long as the press and politicians can scare people with the whole "they're going after your children" ruse, we'll be stuck, IMHO.

Can't you begin to show how far off track the FDA is with regards to what the Congress actually voted/passed in their legalization definition of Tobacco laws? Show the actual inconsistencies in their own data which indicate they have no legal standing? And that they don't have any standards on which the vape companies can base any applications on. What is the FDA's definition of a clean lab? What is the process of how the ejuice can be manufactured to FDA standards? There are none. Except to label bottles 'this is a tobacco product' whether or not it actually contains the chemical or not. They are flat out asking the vaping community to lie to the public? Isn't there a clause in the Tobacco regs that addresses that? Yes, there is but frankly I am just too tired to go look it up and link it.

I have spend many hours reading all the documents I can find in the US codes on tobacco and then the deeming regs from the FDA since all of this began to surface and I have to tell you, it is with exhaustion that I tell you the FDA must have been drunk, drugged or flat out paid off to put forth such a totally inane set of contradictions as this deeming puts forth. Surely, those with influence and more education than I can see this.

And lastly, how much longer can 'save the children' last when there is absolutely no evidence of any intentions of deliberate targeting of that group? Have them show the evidence. The only stats I have seen do not indicate a direct correlation. Kids are always going to get their hands on things that are forbidden. No matter if its vape product, cigarettes, or alcohol. Aren't people everywhere getting tired of the same old song?

 

[ShariR]

Welcome to ECF. I will be watching this thread. I wish you great success. Electronic cigarettes was the only way I was able to quit a 46 year cigarette addiction 3 years ago.

 

[Ipster]

Have you seen this article out of the Harvard School of Public Health? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-features/e-cigarette-quandary/ Not that the article itself is helpful or proof to offer, it is written for layman, but it gives a nice insight into the stirrings among tobacco researchers, and even addresses the ambivalence about these regs by the current Surgeon General. Might be a source of contacts who could be persuaded to show the committee there really are two sides to this, and we might be losing one of the best tools to date to decrease cigarette use in the US, and the rest of the world (although we can focus on the US for now, let's get our own house in order).

Not to to say it will all turn out rainbows and sunshine, but it is about time serious consideration given to harm reduction when harm elimination remains an untenable goal, at least through this generation.

Join PubMed, to research any US NCIH data...easy and free