hey guys.. could use some help... "legally"

Discussion in 'Legal Issues with Ecigarette Use' started by izapmp, Feb 23, 2010.

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  1. izapmp

    izapmp Full Member

    so i just started vaping last week... got my beautiful 901 and some juice and love it... in fact, i love it so much that i took it to work and showed it off. I work at a factory where brake pads are made and there is a strict no smoking policy because of the brake dust in the air can ignite with an open flame.. well somebody saw me vaping and assumed i was smoking and i got reported to the higher ups.... long story short, i have been told not to use it anymore.. i plan on fighting it hard core... (the smoking policy includes tobacco products only)... but i was hoping for somebody to tell me what options i might have if i am unsuccessful at fighting it and then get terminated for doing it anyway... would rather not have that happen, but if i'll be ok letigiously in the long run, then i am willing to go ball to the wall so to speak...

    btw... i know this isnt the right place for this, but its the only place i can start a new thread tight now...

    thanks in advance for any help
     
  2. Dudeman

    Dudeman Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    It seems it would be easier to adhere to the no smoking policy. Just because it says "tobacco products" doesn't make it ok to use a PV. Things like this give vapers a bad name. Would you smoke crack there? Thats not a tobacco product. You should have asked the "higher ups" if your PV was acceptable inside the premisses beforehand IMO.
     
  3. Wireguy

    Wireguy Super Member ECF Veteran

    Unless you like tilting at windmills I'd keep my job.
     
  4. izapmp

    izapmp Full Member

    well i have a meeting with HR tomorrow to explain what it is and try to change their minds. Where i live "tobacco products" are clearly defined by state law, and an e-cig is not one. I don't want to give the community a bad name, or diminish what i have done to spread the word abt vaping at work, but neither do I want to be pushed around by ignorance and forced into either freezing my butt off outside or go to the smoking room and choke on the crap i am trying to get away from in the first place by getting a PV.

    Its only cigs they have a problem with. Many people dip or chew with no problems, and not only is nicotine gum and lazenges accepted, but our insurance pays for them if you want to quit smoking.

    Like i said, nothing has happened yet, and I hope everything will be sorted out after my meeting with HR, but I like knowing what my options so I can guage my reaction to whatever decision they make.
     
  5. CaptJay

    CaptJay Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Its difficult - your employer may listen to you but may decide against you using it soley because actual smokers are going to protest if you are allowed to 'smoke' Of course your unit has no naked flame but it does contain micro electrics and I don't know (though you might and your employers WILL) know if they can maybe spark or cause an issue with the flammable dust.
    Also, your employers premises is private property and technically they can ask anything of you that you would have to comply with in order to occupy said private property providing its not illegal, racist, sexist or creedist (or which would contravene federal laws). There may also be something in the original agreement you signed when you were hired about following rules, and rules may be subject to change. This is a catch-all clause that might trip you up.
    In others words, I don't think 'legally' you have much of a leg to stand on if they do decide to deny your request for shop floor vaping. They may of course be open to an indoor room, away from the shop floor, like a lunch room or something, where you can vape - be prepared to annoy all your smoking friends if they allow this and smoking cigs is still banned inside the building.
    I wish you luck though, but I wouldn't hold your (nice smelling now) breath.

    *Caveat: I am not a lawyer in the USA nor do I play one on TV..or radio..*
     
  6. izapmp

    izapmp Full Member

    of course i wouldnt smoke crack there... that doesnt even make sense... nothing in a pv is a controlled substance... thats the point.. im not breaking any laws... hell im not even breaking company policy by using my 901. If its just a matter of making the smokers jealous or its not fair for them or whatever i dont really care... and i think that is the biggest problem they have with it...
     
  7. izapmp

    izapmp Full Member

    Thank you Jay.. thats what i was looking for... just some advice... i will check policy on rule changing and such before my meeting as well... we have a large employee handbook that has been followed by mgmt for the last 5 years i have worked there at least.. generally speaking, it always goes to the handbook in cases of dispute.. if its in there, its law.. if not, i have yet to run across an example where they just made something up...
     
  8. Wireguy

    Wireguy Super Member ECF Veteran

    Well if it can ignite with open flame they can make the argument that the e-cig can provide an ignition source. Only you know your management. How open are they to a logical argument? Thats the decision you have to make.
     
  9. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    What's with the unrelated comparison Dudeman?? You would still require a lighter... not to mention it's ILLEGAL and completely different. OP's looking for constructive input, that's hardly a fair comparison.

    izapmp, there is a slight chance the heating element inside the atomizer could ignite the brake dust. Just how much dust are we talking about here? Enough that you would have to wear a mask or just trace amounts that could ignite from open flame? If there was that much brake dust that it could ignite from an atty, I think vaping is the least of your worries..... (brake dust, carcinogen, etc....).

    I can understand how you wouldn't want to be stuck in the smoker's lounge though, that's a nasty situation.. all that second hand smoke would be disgusting. Having to go outside in the cold is a bummer too though.

    Hopefully the people you talk to have a shred of intelligence and common sense and allow you to vape indoors. Perhaps there's another area away from the assembly line where you could vape?
     
  10. Timtam

    Timtam Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    The drug talk stops here.


    Thanks.
     
  11. Harsesis

    Harsesis Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Let us know the outcome, should be interesting on what they say.
     
  12. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    From my experience, once an employee complains about another, there's little chance for flexibility, regardless of the circumstances. Most often, management likes to put their foot down and exercise their authority.

    Good luck, I hope I'm wrong and they let you continue vaping inside.
     
  13. CritterBuddy

    CritterBuddy Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Your problem will be that you are still using an electrical device with the "potential" of ignition. Look around the plant for other electrical devices like flashlights, hand held radios, emergency lighting, lighted exit signs, even hearing aids. Also, are all 110 volt connections, lighting, etc. explosion proof? This should be your base for usage.
     
  14. smokum

    smokum Canadian Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Should they decide to vote against its use just pick up some snus for while your working and go for bathroom breaks and vape till your hearts content in a stall.

    Providing information of the device when questioned is great, but in the end its "their" place of buisiness, and as your already aware...... its a tough job market out there to risk taking a hard stance on the matter IMHO.

    VapeOn,
    Greg
     
  15. Chefdeuce

    Chefdeuce Senior Member ECF Veteran

    You can ask, and talk to them about their policy without having to fight it to the death. Present your case with knowledge, confidence, and above all maturity.
     
  16. MickiO

    MickiO Super Member ECF Veteran


    Izapmp:

    Think of it from their view point for a sec, Let's say they hear you out and say "yes" and decide to allow you to use your pv in the shop, and then one day you click on your 510 button and something happens, for some unknown unforeseen reason, the pv did infact make spark enough to ignite the fine particles of brake dust, and *boom*.:shock:


    . If there were any damage to the shop, it's contents, or heaven forbid anyone got injured, (and more than likely, YOU'd take the brunt of it being the one who was the closest), guess who they'd hold responsible? I'm sure the company has full Insurance, but considering the actual cause was a pv, the Insurance co. would not cover it, Especially knowing it was actually something that not only "could have been" avoided, but "should have" been avoided to begin with. It would all fall onto your boss's shoulders. Your employer would have to pay for the damages, and if you have already been warned not to vape in shop, and he could actually fire you and sue you for the damages as well.



    Do you have medical Insurance? Do you know for certain, if it would cover you in a case like this? or someone else for that matter??


    I'm not saying it could or couldn't ignite, I'm just saying these are the things your employer has to consider. I'ts the "unknown" your boss would have to consider whether or not, he's willing to risk his business, or someone getting hurt, etc.. It's not just about tobacco laws or no smoking, or even company rules. It's an unknown risk you would be asking your boss to take, based on your word and your own personal know-how of e-cigs. .I mean, are you seriously willing to stake your job, your reputation and well-being of yourself and others who work closely around you on it? How certain are you that nothing could ever possibly happen?.


    If it were me, I would feel absolutely terrible, if something did happen on account of something "I" did.


    Even worse, is if you were 'stealth vaping' after being told no, and you decide you're not breaking any rules, .and then something actually "did" happen, imagine how you'd feel? Would it really be worth it?


    IMHO, if being able to use your pv at work means that much to you, enough to fight the people you work for, who write your checks, and along with those you work with, then you may be better off, finding yourself a different profession that does allow you to vape and work. .I mean, I don't know your income situation, and I'm not sure how much you need your check, or how easy it would be for you to go out & get another job right now, but if you value your paycheck, you're better off leaving it alone..


    Maybe just go into restroom to vape if your jonesing for nic, If it's a real problem, you could try chewing gum til break time.. And who knows, you might just convert other smokers there and turn them onto vaping too. .There's strength in numbers,, and who knows maybe if there are more vapors that work there, they might just consider a room you guys could use, you never know..


    Just don't go after smoker's hoping to unite, Vaping is a life-saver to many,.


    I wish you the best in which ever way you decide to go on this, just hate to see you get yourself in an even bigger situation than not being able to vape at work:)


    peace....
     
  17. ThePuck

    ThePuck Super Member ECF Veteran

    The switches in our PVs will generate a spark. Doesn't matter if they are manual or automatic, there is a spark. I don't want to get into a technical discussion here but these things pull an amp of power and this is enough for a spark. This spark would most likely only ignite a gas like gasoline vapor or other like that. I doubt it would ignite dust since it is fairly closed in most PVs but flamable vapors could easily get into it.

    So in all reality, they are probably going to say no because in that situation, I most likely would say no also - they have insurance companies they have to answer to. If an insurnace company did an inspection and came walking through while you were vaping, even if they did know all about PVs, they would also know about the possibility of a spark and they would drop your company or raise their rates.

    This in turn means less money for you and your buddies at raise time.
     
  18. Ratrambo

    Ratrambo Full Member

    Is there another place inside where you can vape? apart from shop floor, smoker lounge there must be another room? what about canteen, coffee machine corner etc. Where do the non smokers go on break?
     
  19. Madame Psychosis

    Madame Psychosis Super Member ECF Veteran

    While I can't offer any new advice on dealing with your employer, I'd strongly suggest snus or Stonewall dissolvable tablets to get your nic fix while you're on the floor. Hands-free and far safer than dip (in terms of carcinogens and mouth damage). Look at the Smokeless Tobacco subforum for reviews and places to buy, etc.
     
  20. Drummel

    Drummel Senior Member ECF Veteran

    I'll toss in my 2 cents.


    First. As far as the PV's concerned. There's a heating element. It can get red hot, and it can get white hot (usually around that point it would pop). It isn't worth any risk.

    Secondly. (And firstly) I'm not bashing anyone here, but lets take a look at this from the outside in.

    Smoking is generally restricted to breaks (especially now that there is a full blown indoor ban) and it's done outside. Or in some cases a designated safe/smoking area.

    What gives us the right to use a device that is, in similiar intention, like a cigarette, to avoid taking normal breaks like any smoker? First of all, Anti-Smokers and non-smokers, educated or not aren't going to be happy with what they see. The non/anti-smokers for obvious reasons. The smokers because it can ignite a potential issue jealousy issue, and raise another issue that could cause potential hate for "skirting the edge" of the law.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the sole intention of the E-Cigarette/PV to simply smoke inside at anywhere we choose? It seems to me that more PV'ers are getting mad and creating fights where they don't need to be, BAD VIBES type stuff. This kind of friction is going to negatively impact us from the smokers front AND the non-smokers front. Education doesn't mean smokers are going to switch. Some don't want to, which would lead to jealousy, anger, and even hate.

    I got my PV for a few reasons.

    1) To vape inside my own house because I can't stand the smell of a stale smokers house.

    2) To vape in my car (same reason as above)

    3) To GET HEATHLIER, and still enjoy vaping as a form of replacement smoking.

    4) To maybe cut to 0mg Nic and just enjoy vaping as more of a recreational hobby of sorts.


    I see lots of people ,IMHO, pushing to vape too hard. Break time is there for a reason, with a designated place. If they sole purpose is to "just vape wherever I want" Then I think we *ALL* missed the real point.
     
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