How is sub-ohm vaping dangerous?

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gankoji

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Just for the record, I seem to recall this thread as a rather educated discussion on the subject of sub-ohm vaping, battery failures, and the physics of our hobby. Not a condescending dismissal of sub-ohm vaping as reckless.

I'd like to see this thread continue as a method for those of us with some sub-ohm experience to share those experiences and lessons learned with the newcomers, and continue the process of educating the masses as to the inherent dangers of our hobby in general, and high power vaping in particular. I, for one, thoroughly enjoy sub ohm vaping. I also continually evaluate my process of re-building to ensure my safety, and the safety of those around me. I hope this is something that all of the less experienced folks here take to heart, regardless of what wattage or resistance with which they care to vape.
 

vapo jam

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welp, i know i'm going to take some heat from both sides for saying this...

while i disagree with dr g's approach, i agree completely with the substance of his statements (quick disclaimer - i am an engineer, so i apologize in advance if this gets too heavy on the technical side...):



first, sub-ohm vaping isn't inherently any more dangerous than anything else, lack of knowledge is what's dangerous. for example, i use 0.5 ohm coils on my dripper. on a fully-charged battery at 4.2 volts, i'm running 8.4 amps, so i only use batteries rated for 10 amps continuous discharge or higher. i'm well within the spec, but regardless, i test fire the battery before vaping, and check regularly to make sure it's not getting hot.

i like to use 18350's for my genny. the 18350's are rated at 6 amps continuous, so i wrap my coils at .8 ohms or higher, which gives me a max draw of 5.25 amps at full charge. again, battery is fine, no heating, etc.

of course, both scenarios are assuming that the only load is the atty and coil. the mod will add a little bit more resistance, as will the battery itself, both of which will lower the current draw, but i prefer to leave those out of the calculation as a factor of safety.



next, regarding vv mods, let's assume you're vaping a 3 ohm carto at 6 volts on your provari. this would yield an even 12 watts of power. your battery doesn't care at what voltage your provari is set, it only knows that it needs to provide 12 watts to your coil (plus a little extra to power the electronics). for a fully charged battery, you will need to pull about 2.9 amps, meaning the circuitry in your provari is acting as a 1.4 ohm load as far as your battery is concerned.

but, what about when your battery is almost dead (3.3v)? in order to put out this same 12 watts, the provari needs to pull 3.6 amps from the battery (this has nothing to do with the 3.5 amp output limit of the circuitry). in order to do this, the circuitry needs to act as a 0.9 ohm coil, so as far as your battery is concerned, you're sub-ohming.

this isn't even the limit - if you have a provari v2, it is guaranteed to be capable of an output of 14.5 watts. in order to achieve this on a battery with 3.3 volts left, you need to pull 4.4 amps, meaning the resistance of the circuitry adjusts to 0.75 ohms. now you're not only vaping at a lower resistance than my genesis, but you're doing it with a much weaker battery (i measure the charge left when i change batteries, and i'm very good about swapping them out when they get down to about 3.6 volts).



last point for the moment is regarding the temperature - does anyone happen to know how a rice cooker works? you basically just throw in rice and water, turn it on, and it somehow knows when to turn off, right? what's actually going on is there's a heater and a thermometer in the bottom, and the heater stays on as long as the thermometer reads around 212°F (the boiling point of water). liquid water can't physically exist at a higher temperature than this (it needs to become steam first), so as long as there's any liquid water in the rice cooker, it keeps the base at around 212°F as well. as soon as all the water has either been absorbed by the rice or boiled off, the temperature jumps, which tells the rice cooker to shut off.

similarly, eliquid can only exist at a certain temperature before it vaporizes, so as long as it's in contact with your coil, it will prevent the coil from heating up very much beyond this point (assuming you're not providing enough power to cause it to combust, which is almost impossible to do on a well-saturated wick without an external heat source, eg, a lighter). obviously, there are other factors that go into it - the outside of the coil, for example, also relies on air and vapor to help it stay cooler - but there just isn't enough room on a 28-32 gauge wire to have a huge temperature gradient.



whew, that was long, hopefully somebody reads it :)
 

TheSystemHasFailed

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welp, i know i'm going to take some heat from both sides for saying this...

while i disagree with dr g's approach, i agree completely with the substance of his statements (quick disclaimer - i am an engineer, so i apologize in advance if this gets too heavy on the technical side...):



first, sub-ohm vaping isn't inherently any more dangerous than anything else, lack of knowledge is what's dangerous. for example, i use 0.5 ohm coils on my dripper. on a fully-charged battery at 4.2 volts, i'm running 8.4 amps, so i only use batteries rated for 10 amps continuous discharge or higher. i'm well within the spec, but regardless, i test fire the battery before vaping, and check regularly to make sure it's not getting hot.

i like to use 18350's for my genny. the 18350's are rated at 6 amps continuous, so i wrap my coils at .8 ohms or higher, which gives me a max draw of 5.25 amps at full charge. again, battery is fine, no heating, etc.

of course, both scenarios are assuming that the only load is the atty and coil. the mod will add a little bit more resistance, as will the battery itself, both of which will lower the current draw, but i prefer to leave those out of the calculation as a factor of safety.



next, regarding vv mods, let's assume you're vaping a 3 ohm carto at 6 volts on your provari. this would yield an even 12 watts of power. your battery doesn't care at what voltage your provari is set, it only knows that it needs to provide 12 watts to your coil (plus a little extra to power the electronics). for a fully charged battery, you will need to pull about 2.9 amps, meaning the circuitry in your provari is acting as a 1.4 ohm load as far as your battery is concerned.

but, what about when your battery is almost dead (3.3v)? in order to put out this same 12 watts, the provari needs to pull 3.6 amps from the battery (this has nothing to do with the 3.5 amp output limit of the circuitry). in order to do this, the circuitry needs to act as a 0.9 ohm coil, so as far as your battery is concerned, you're sub-ohming.

this isn't even the limit - if you have a provari v2, it is guaranteed to be capable of an output of 14.5 watts. in order to achieve this on a battery with 3.3 volts left, you need to pull 4.4 amps, meaning the resistance of the circuitry adjusts to 0.75 ohms. now you're not only vaping at a lower resistance than my genesis, but you're doing it with a much weaker battery (i measure the charge left when i change batteries, and i'm very good about swapping them out when they get down to about 3.6 volts).



last point for the moment is regarding the temperature - does anyone happen to know how a rice cooker works? you basically just throw in rice and water, turn it on, and it somehow knows when to turn off, right? what's actually going on is there's a heater and a thermometer in the bottom, and the heater stays on as long as the thermometer reads around 212°F (the boiling point of water). liquid water can't physically exist at a higher temperature than this (it needs to become steam first), so as long as there's any liquid water in the rice cooker, it keeps the base at around 212°F as well. as soon as all the water has either been absorbed by the rice or boiled off, the temperature jumps, which tells the rice cooker to shut off.

similarly, eliquid can only exist at a certain temperature before it vaporizes, so as long as it's in contact with your coil, it will prevent the coil from heating up very much beyond this point (assuming you're not providing enough power to cause it to combust, which is almost impossible to do on a well-saturated wick without an external heat source, eg, a lighter). obviously, there are other factors that go into it - the outside of the coil, for example, also relies on air and vapor to help it stay cooler - but there just isn't enough room on a 28-32 gauge wire to have a huge temperature gradient.



whew, that was long, hopefully somebody reads it :)
tl:dr lurk more, practice what you've read/common sense.
 

Technonut

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The media is having a field day with this incident:

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/...xploded-Shot-4-Foot-Flames-Across-Living-Room

This is the kind of press that we, as vapers, should not want in any way, shape, or form...


EDIT: I know this was a cheap eGo battery, and nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping.. Just think if a couple of incidents involving larger batteries due to sub-ohm'ing occur, and are linked to this activity.. We are dangerously close to internet sales being banned as it is.. Why add fuel to the fire?

Don't think a total ban or strict regulation could happen here in the US? Just ask our friends across the pond in the UK how they're feeling right now with the regulation they're facing. At the rate things are going, I'm glad I have 3 years worth of nic-base in my deep-freeze..
 
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pdib

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The media is having a field day with this incident:

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/...xploded-Shot-4-Foot-Flames-Across-Living-Room

This is the kind of press that we, as vapers, should not want in any way, shape, or form...


EDIT: I know this was a cheap eGo battery, and nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping.. Just think if a couple of incidents involving larger batteries due to sub-ohm'ing occur, and are linked to this activity.. We are dangerously close to internet sales being banned as it is.. Why add fuel to the fire?

Don't think a total ban or strict regulation could happen here in the US? Just ask our friends across the pond in the UK how they're feeling right now with the regulation they're facing. At the rate things are going, I'm glad I have 3 years worth of nic-base in my deep-freeze..

how is this relevant to learning and practicing safe subΩ vaping procedure? In fact, I would suggest it is not conducive to the clear communication of a few simple facts and some basic math/formulas that will help keep people safe.


very rarely do "freak-out" tactics and effective education/conversation go hand in hand.


I honestly hate to be this direct; but thinking back on reading through this thread, it was at the previous/first post of "this nature" where I rolled my eyes, thought "oh sh_t, here we go again", and stopped being able to earnestly focus on the topic of subΩ safety.
 
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Technonut

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Problem is, many do not bother with the details.. Just look at the posts here of folks not even knowing how to check their resistance, and using whatever is handed to them at shops. How many are seeing cloud-chasing on vids who don't have interest in joining a forum at all?

I'm not worried about people who educate themselves.. The majority of vapers don't even use mods beyond an eGo. It's not fair for a small group to possibly ruin something which helped multi 1000's of people who only want to quit smoking and substitute it with vaping.
 

bnrkwest

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What we basically have problems with is batteries, and that is not just a problem in vaping. Battery explosions occur in other areas too. I found this article very educational and I loved the graphics on the batt cell, it explains alot of the problem with Lithium batts in all it's uses. It is all about the chemistry of these batts. Vaping and sub ohms is really not the root of the problem, it is lithium batteries and what that lithium is housed in for a carrier. We just need to realize, batts fail and some failures are from manufacturing, and dropping/impact to batts and over charging batts and over draining batts & doing it too fast, we must respect that lithium battery and understand what we are using and how we are using it. bnrk http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i6/Assessing-Safety-Lithium-Ion-Batteries.html
 

bnrkwest

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I don't know why people risk their laptop charging ecigs, should never do that! This is also another battery failure, has nothing to do with vaping per say, it is all about battery failure. The story should be more detailed, but of course is just a sound bite. bnrk

The media is having a field day with this incident:

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/...xploded-Shot-4-Foot-Flames-Across-Living-Room

This is the kind of press that we, as vapers, should not want in any way, shape, or form...


EDIT: I know this was a cheap eGo battery, and nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping.. Just think if a couple of incidents involving larger batteries due to sub-ohm'ing occur, and are linked to this activity.. We are dangerously close to internet sales being banned as it is.. Why add fuel to the fire?

Don't think a total ban or strict regulation could happen here in the US? Just ask our friends across the pond in the UK how they're feeling right now with the regulation they're facing. At the rate things are going, I'm glad I have 3 years worth of nic-base in my deep-freeze..
 

Technonut

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It's not just the batteries.. How do you think the "no-smoking period" zealots will react when they see the "sport" of cloud-chasing? Vape shops are popping up like mushrooms on the west coast in large metro areas..more and more everyday are joining the "sport"..

I know in my VERY small rural town, a city ordinance was just passed that excludes smoking, as well as vaping in businesses, (including bars) outside of the businesses, and within so many feet of city property. They specifically included electronic cigarettes..
 

Technonut

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I don't know why people risk their laptop charging ecigs, should never do that! This is also another battery failure, has nothing to do with vaping per say, it is all about battery failure. The story should be more detailed, but of course is just a sound bite. bnrk

It has everything to do with vaping.. The batteries are part of the equipment we use. It can be deemed dangerous, and subject to strict regulation if the powers that be see fit. Quite possibly the last nail in the coffin of internet sales. There's much more to this picture than our personal satisfaction, and doing this because we currently can.

The topic: Is sub-ohm vaping dangerous? YES! in many different levels that many do not seem aware of. ;)

EDIT: The recent incident I linked is being reported in the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

'It wasn't a boom, it wasn't a pop... it was a Kaboom!' the shaken Wilkowski recalled to the station WSB-TV. ‘I screamed… it was a real freak-out moment.
 
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tattooed

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I guess we should just say vaping is dangerous business because after all, every device uses a battery. By that logic holding a cellphone up to your head or sitting a laptop in your lap is highly risky behavior. The lady with the run away battery in that recent article bought a faulty device. It happens. Just recently I read of a girl who had her cellphone catch fire in her pocket.

So, I'm of the opinion anytime you use a battery, something could go wrong. Accept that and proceed with caution.

As for sub-ohm vaping, I don't feel any less safe vaping my 0.7 ohm builds than I do with an Ego (which I personally know a person who had one get hot enough that they had to toss out of a moving car). I've been doing this a long time, I've read a lot, I test everything, if something we to get hot I'd know to stop. Its for advanced users, plain and simple.

I don't want to live in a nanny state, let me weigh the risks and decide if its something I want. If there's something wrong with products, hold companies liable. If its just an idiot using things they shouldn't be, then its on them. Remember laptop's catching fire and burning down people's houses? Where was the ban on laptops? It just doesn't make sense.
 

bnrkwest

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That is my point tho, cars have battery failure, airplanes have battery failures, they won't ban cars or airplanes for battery failure and both can kill people, so how can they ban ecigs for battery failure, there has to be some other reason to ban, I would think if this ended up in court for instance it would be oh so easy to prove battery failure. People do need to understand these batteries in all applications can fail. bnrk

It has everything to do with vaping.. The batteries are part of the equipment we use. It can be deemed dangerous, and subject to strict regulation if the powers that be see fit. Quite possibly the last nail in the coffin of internet sales. There's much more to this picture than our personal satisfaction, and doing this because we currently can.

The topic: Is sub-ohm vaping dangerous? YES! in many different levels that many do not seem aware of. ;)

EDIT: The recent incident I linked is being reported in the UK:

E-cigarette eHit explodes and sends 4-foot flames across woman's living room | Mail Online
 

bnrkwest

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I actually believe the anti ecig/smoking zealots would still be chasing us if we all used cig- a- likes and sub ohm was never thought of or mods, etc. They are always going to be against smoking and anything that even resembles smoking. It is their passion to stomp it all out with their Carrie Nation mentality. bnrk

It's not just the batteries.. How do you think the "no-smoking period" zealots will react when they see the "sport" of cloud-chasing? Vape shops are popping up like mushrooms on the west coast in large metro areas..more and more everyday are joining the "sport"..

I know in my VERY small rural town, a city ordinance was just passed that excludes smoking, as well as vaping in businesses, (including bars) outside of the businesses, and within so many feet of city property. They specifically included electronic cigarettes..
 

Technonut

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Folks are going to do what they do regardless.. I know I tried to kill myself by smoking for close to 30 years, and knowing better. Human nature at it's finest.. ;)

If they tie the devices like eGos into regulation, and can use public safety as one of the reasons, it would probably fly. Banning internet sales would be one way. The FDA has discussed it before.

People should really pay attention to what's going on around them, and try to protect our current freedom to vape.

Legislation News
 

Ubergeek63

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Great video- thanks for posting the link! bnrk

i had to upload it myself. hunted it down and downloaded it when A123 was crashing to make sure i still had it. I figured it would be something that should be on permanent display here to settle, once and for all, the safety discussions.

If a battery can not pass that test, it should NEVER be used in the bogus hard switched mods i have been seeing!
 

Myk

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I actually believe the anti ecig/smoking zealots would still be chasing us if we all used cig- a- likes and sub ohm was never thought of or mods, etc. They are always going to be against smoking and anything that even resembles smoking. It is their passion to stomp it all out with their Carrie Nation mentality. bnrk

If ecigs were healthier than breathing air, not addictive and cleaned the air for those around them they would still be against them because they look like smoking and they will make up lies to get them banned (kind of like they're doing).
 

Technonut

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I saw this on Reddit... Props to SteamMonkey for writing this: (For the folks who are going to do this anyway)


So... I get the vapor envy... I see those enormous clouds of vapor being spit out and think it's pretty cool myself. But here's the thing... those guys probably know what they're doing.

In the video currently getting bumped around on this sub there is one point where I feel like the guy's being responsible. He says "I need to change the battery, I've been vaping on this one for a couple hours"... that was an AW IMR, a battery most people talk about using 'all day'. He swapped it out for a panasonic CGR18650CH unless my eyes aren't working... batteries that are suited to what he's pulling on that mechanical mod.

Do you know why they're suited? Do you know why he's swapping after just a couple of hours? Now... Do you know how many coils he had or how big his air holes were or what device he was using? If you can't answer with 100% certainty the first two questions but CAN answer the last few... you're the person this is for.

Running an 'extreme' vapor set up for the purposes of generating enormous clouds of vapor is risky. You're pushing batteries to or beyond their operational capacity when you throw low ohm, dual coil set ups on a mech.

The mechanical mod was a great idea at first... people were upset by the fact that their egos kept burning up because of the crappy wires and boards in them so they bypassed the limiting factor, those crappy wires and boards. Every chain has a weak link. If you over work an ego the board burns out or the wires fry. The battery doesn't fail... it's not the weak link.

In a mechanical mod with a solid metal piston for a switch and 0 wires, your weak link is the battery... this is not a link you want to break while it's in close proximity to your face or anything you value more than those clouds of vapor which will dissipate a little faster than your checking account if you over tax a battery and create a little time bomb.

(*)Yes, to the people who will say "it's not that easy to burn out an IMR!" you're right, under normal circumstances it's not. But these batteries are NOT intended for what we're using them for. In fact, after recent conversations with Panasonic/Sanyo, Sony, and Samsung, they don't even like the fact that we're USING these batteries because they're not intended for single cell, unprotected use in any device. The fact that they're available can be attributed to modders of flashlights, pen lasers and bicycle electronics. A demand formed around those markets and it was filled by various folks, ecigs came along and the demand skyrocketed.

These batteries are not built for what we're doing to them. I'm not telling you NOT to do it... don't get me wrong, I plan on making a few little fog machines myself. However, I know my batteries, I know what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and what the implications are and how to mitigate risks. If you don't... ask, learn, figure it out and don't just take some random Youtube video, drill out your RBA caps and start blowing clouds.

I'll give you a couple of tips but it's by no means all the info you need to have in your brain to push these set ups to the limit so please... it's better to learn before you do something to avoid a bad situation than to jump in, have a bad situation then try to figure out why later.

1. Only use IMR batteries and only big ones. Don't do this with an 18350. Go 18650 and don't push your luck.


2. If you don't own a multimeter, go buy one.


3. Know your amp limits on the batteries you're using, check the voltage on those batteries and check the resistance on your coils, learn the math to figure out your amps, watts, volts, etc. Operate within the manufacturer constraints and if you decide to "push it" do it once or twice then stop.


4. Check yoru battery constantly. Take 10 hits on some super vape set up... check the battery. Change it at the appropriate time.


5. If the battery gets hot... stop, take the battery out, set it someplace not flammable, wait 5 minutes and check on the battery, if it's hotter find a safe place to put it where it's not going to do any damage, wait for the battery to finish doing whatever it's gonna do (theres a variety of things that 'could' happen at this point) and when it's done, clean up. If you don't know how to clean up a failed battery, google it.


6. If you make a video of your phat clouds... please, put a disclaimer on it, some info other than 'omg look at teh clouds' that tells brand new vapers that you're doing this with the proper information and that they should not "try this at home" so to speak.


I want y'all to be safe, I also want y'all to have fun which is why I'm not saying "Don't do it!" or being one of 'those guys'. but please, for the love of vaping, don't monkey see monkey do this stuff unless you've educated yourself on all the factors that go into it and how to mitigate risk.

(*)Yeah, I think you missed part of what I was sayin about batteries not being intended for our use.

The majority of the 'nicer' batteries we're picking up, specifically the panasonic, sanyo, efest and AW batteries are not intended for use outside of a protected battery pack. Panasonic does not sell their CGR18650CH for use as 'just a battery' it's sold to pack manufacturers, some of which turn around and sell the bare cells. AW would be one of those folks, Efest relabels panasonic, samsung, and sanyo cells which is why they're good cells... but they're still not intended for single cell use outside of a protected pack.

It doesn't mean they're not safe, if they were dangerous we'd have a lot more instances of them going snap crackle or pop but they need to be treated with respect.
 
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