I need help from people who know more about WTA than I

Discussion in 'Aroma Ejuice' started by PLANofMAN, Jan 4, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

  2. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nevermind. Dvap is countering with science and knowledge. :D
    :pop:
     
  3. homeprogreen

    homeprogreen Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Lol. Ok I have to admit that was an enjoyable little trip back out into the wilds of ECF. I will also admit I didn't understand a damn bit of what Dvap was saying other then the part about the longer and more agressive the extraction the more crud your going to get along with the stuff your actually after
     
  4. DVap

    DVap Nicotiana Alchemia Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I'd give him a break. For as much as I'm not a fan of soak type extractions (at some point, you'd just as well smoke), this one is probably a bit cleaner than some others. He's ordered the nicotine determination kit from Wizard Labs (who credit the method back to me on their product page, lol), and he'll find out soon enough that the actual alkaloid content is quite low.
     
  5. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Basically, the guy got his knickers in a twist because he wanted it to be "WTA extracted via ethanol". What it actually is, is a nice, clean(ish) NET, with a high alkaloid content (for a NET). Wonderboy got 10% alkaloids and 90% other stuff. He should be proud of himself.

    I don't know how pure it would have to be for Dvap to call it WTA, but a 10% alkaloid extraction doesn't make it.

    I might try making it myself, just to try a NET tobacco. I'd be tempted to buy some Zeolite from an aquarium supply store to mix with the Everclear and absorb some of the 5% water content. That water is catching a lot of resins and tars that I'd rather not vape. I'd suggest doing so in that thread, but the OP doesn't seem the type to want help.:nah:

    Edit: in case you guys are wondering, people have been doing "Ethanol Tobacco Extraction" since 2008, if not earlier. This guy's big breakthrough is that he did a cold extraction. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wasn't the first to do so.

    Edit 2: Ethanol might get the tobacco specific nitrosamines (carcinogens) too, and if you are using American tobacco which is likely fermented, those are in elevated amounts. That's something that we don't have to worry about in Aroma's WTA because he sources tobacco that is low in nitrosamines.:2c:

    You going to hit them up for royalties? ;)
     
  6. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I miss all the fun. I'll go read thru that thread just to see what was said.
     
  7. snork

    snork Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    In a way I'm kinda over giving a crap about such things. I know what my WTA is, how it's made, who made it, shook his hand. Other people might make WTA in a different way or whatever but what gets me is the way people in the vaping world almost crucified Jerry (and some still try) but the minute some other bozo shows up folks just blindly go "Ooooooo! I want some!"
     
  8. lctrc

    lctrc Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    :pop:

    Godspeed to those who have the time, knowledge, and ambition to attempt all this. Me, I'll just keep giving my money to Jerry and my gratitude to DVap.
     
  9. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Whenever someone tries to make their own wta and then talks about getting a "buzz" and it being too strong then I can't help but wonder what's in it. I don't know about you folks but I don't get a buzz from real wta.
     
  10. snork

    snork Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    No buzz here. Like right now I *really really* could use a buzz but I ain't got squat.
     
  11. DVap

    DVap Nicotiana Alchemia Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I think I'm pretty much done with that thread. To assume that the product is a "golden alkaloid syrup" is premature at best. Actually, when I quoted a 25% recovery, I was being rather kind. I expect far less recovery than that since I doubt that cold ethanol will touch alkaloid salts present in the tobacco. Then there's the lack of cellular disruption that comes from simply dumping a solvent over tobacco. Powdering the tobacco might help, but powdered tobacco would also give up more of the gunk. I've said it before, soaks are self-limiting.
     
  12. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I may not understand all the chemistry but I do know a little about how wta makes me feel. Why do you suppose he said there was a buzz affect? First thing that comes to my mind is some kind of impurity.
     
  13. homeprogreen

    homeprogreen Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Probably didn't get all the everclear out of it
     
  14. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Soaks are a form of WTA, just not that pure.

    Having said that (about not very pure), far more pure than smoking (on that I do disagree with DVap). The extract is less than 1% of the original toacco. The bulk of that is not just harmless fibre - that would be combusted in smoking it.


    For a very good DIY method to make a pretty pure WTA that takes only a day (mostly waiting time), with a high yield, see:

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...on-method.html

    Heat the oil only to 100C if you like, or don't heat it at all - simpler but a bit less efficient (less yield).

    See :

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...liability.html

    for the enhancement.

    No concentration beyond typical e-liquid at any stage (there are only two main steps); suitable for people who can cook or do diy, etc.

    It's a base-acid method in which tceight worked out how to maximise the solubility partition transfers using simple equipment and a well-designed approach. Much superior to any NET.

    Only a handful of people will try this, even thouh it is simple enough, so Aroma needn't panic. Indeed, someday a newbie will get into this and contribute something new to our understanding.

    Alkaloids are unique in being both organic and polar - hence the 2 step base-acid method finally extracts only these. This is why it is superior to NETs.

    Commercially they might use an organic solvent such as ether (highly volatile, so difficult to work with, but one can let it evaporate quickly and no partition concern for second stage; so can get a bit more yield) rather than mineral oil but it is essentially the same approach, with similar purity to be expected. That ultimately depends most on careful and patient handling. Where tceight has excelled is in maximising the solubility partitions for greatest yield (particularly in the first step).
     
  15. DVap

    DVap Nicotiana Alchemia Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    All, please refer to this blog post.

    Thanks.
     
  16. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    How's this for an analogy? It's the equivalent of adding sugar and yeast to grape juice (and waiting a few weeks) to make alcohol and hoping it turns into a single malt Scotch whiskey.

    It might get you drunk, but it ain't whiskey.
     
  17. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    I made some booze like that when I was in Saudi Arabia in the Army.
     
  18. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Did you remember to "burp" the balloon? :p
    I had a buddy in high school who used to make that. Horrible stuff.
     
  19. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    It is horrible but there was nothing available over there
     
  20. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I simply started an experiment and publicly noted my discovery/process. You came in fired up on attacking that it was not WTA before any conclusive evidence was in either way. The resulting 'alkaloidal syrups' are never claimed nor expected to be 100% pure. They are expected to have tobacco alkaloids to a certain unknown concentration. FOR SAFETY It was assumed that the resulting oil was 100% pure, this is to avoid overdose in assuming 50% purity when its actually 80%.. (for example.)

    I am simply calling out the audacity to the claim that WTA (whole tobacco alkaloid) is something that only DVap can produce. Further more I am making the statement that if you are extracting the terpenes (flavors) from tobacco you are most likely getting some of the alkaloids. These alkaloids are in salt form and can not be verified by DVaps method of acidic titration. If you are referring to WTA as some loosely defined trademarked product, then no I am not producing it.

    If WTA is, as the acronym implies, Whole Tobacco Alkaloids then all NETs are an impure form of WTA. The reason your precious titration kit says there is no nicotine, is because it is testing for freebased alkaloids. In nature nicotine exists in the form of polar soluble neutral/acidic salts... Whether or not my 'crude tobacco concentrate' is what you would define as a "WTA", it does indeed contain the full and natural alkaloid spectrum of tobacco. It does indeed taste delicious, provide me a morning nicotine rush like I remember from cigarette days, and most importantly allow me to exist combustion free without cravings.

    I have not been intentionally badmouthing anyone. I have simply been defending a well intended scientific experiment among the community. You will notice quite a few people in that thread see my side of things as legitimate.

    No it would be wine. It becomes whiskey with a specified process of distillation and aging in a wooden cask. That does not stop one from brewing fine single barrel malt whiskey at home. Similar to home extractions/tinctures it is easy to produce garbage. But with good technique/practice it is possible to achieve a very quality result. I've been known to brew a pretty delicious hard cider on occasion.

    But were not talking about something as specific as 'Scotch Whiskey'... We are talking about a substance that has a more vague description like YPA (Yeast Produced Alcohol). If someone told me there scotch whiskey was YPA, but my homebrew beer wasn't... I would assuredly call the BS Flag. If they wanted to say there whiskey was 50% pure YPA and my homebrew beer was merely 13% pure at best, my lips would be puckered shut.'

    Edit: It is pretty safe to assume the majority of the everclear is gone based on smell and consistency. Not to mention with a ethanol/water all the ethanol would be gone before the water. Even if the resulting tobacco concentrate was 100% ethanol at 24mg/ml one would have to consume a lot more than the few drops consumed from 3-5 pulls on an ecig to get any effect.

    Edit2: Sorry to bring this discussion directly into this vendor thread, it feels inappropriate. Yet it feels more inappropriate to not defend myself. If anyone would like to discuss the details further I encourage a friendly open discussion on the matter in my thread.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page