FDA If not regulation then what?

[Mike Abrams]

I hate all this regulation, but I will play devils advocate here.

I am tired of buying defective Chinese hardware and poor locally made juice, with little or no recourse.

The typical serious vaper then tells me to DIY. But sub ohm clearos are being sold as an alternative to DIY.

Cmon folks, lets step it up so the common smoker can make the switch.

I would pay a little more to know what I am getting is not junk.

If not regulaion, what will help? Thanks, Mike

 

[edyle]

I support battery labelling regulations

 

[Rossum]

If you're tired of defective Chinese hardware, don't buy cheap Chinese hardware. When you need tools, do you buy them at Harbor Freight?

If you're tired of poor locally made juice, there are plenty of alternatives. Either find a local vendor that makes good juice, or order it, or mix it yourself. But the question in my mind is: What constitutes poorly made juice to you? Is the PG/VG ratio or nicotine concentration not as stated? Or is it simply that it gunks up your coils too quickly? The latter in inevitable with some kinds of flavors. A general rule is: The darker and/or sweeter the juice, the harder it is on coils. I don't think there's any way around this.

Vapers almost always use the term "DIY" in reference to juice that they mix themselves, so I'm really puzzled how sub-ohm clearos can be an alternative to that. Sub-ohm clearos are sold as an alternative to rebuildable atomizers.

How do you figure that regulations -- which do nothing but reduce the choice of products available -- will make it easier for the common smoker to switch? It's amazing how far vaping has come in a few short years and how much better the equipment is now than it was 2-3 years ago. Regulation (particularly of hardware) will prevent new products from entering the market. In fact, as they are currently proposed, the FDA regulations will remove everything that wasn't offered prior to 2007 from the market. Somehow, I don't think that turning the clock back 8 years will help people switch. What will help people switch is to let the industry continue to innovate, something which regulations will prevent.

 

[Jman8]

I hate all this regulation, but I will play devils advocate here.

I am tired of buying defective Chinese hardware and poor locally made juice, with little or no recourse.

The typical serious vaper then tells me to DIY. But sub ohm clearos are being sold as an alternative to DIY.

Cmon folks, lets step it up so the common smoker can make the switch.

I would pay a little more to know what I am getting is not junk.

If not regulaion, what will help? Thanks, Mike

I would hope the devil's advocate could do better than this.

I buy gear from company in America (that likely gets it shipped from China) and when it goes defective, I get replacement (for free). One of the more popular companies around and founder of SFATA.

I buy juice from American company and is one of around 20 companies I've tried. Saying there are few options doesn't align with my experience in vaping. I see people post lists 30 deep of different flavor vendors, and rarely see the ones I usually go with on that list, which tells me that the list could easily be a hundred companies, or way more. So, more like lots of recourse. Then add in DIY, and its recourse galore.

Arguably, regulation will make things much worse. So much so that I am willing to wager on it. There's your devil's advocate.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

You want cheaper decent vape gear? Buy decent gear that is a bit out of date on clearance. Not old juice but 1 yr or so old hardware. I got a Zmax that originally sold for $80 or so for $10 on clearance. I looked around and found some Efest 18500 batteries new in box for $1 each. Fine for a Zmax wattage.
You want the leading edge TC and such you will either buy cheap junk or pay dearly for good TC equipment which will likely be out of date in 3 months.
The bleeding/leading edge is like that.
I waited a few years to get a BIG LCD TV. Paid 1/10 of what some friends paid just 2 years before and got a better set too.

 

[twgbonehead]

Mike,

Have you read any of the proposed (and existing) legislation? Virtually NONE of it deals with quality control, or making vaping products more accessible to smokers; in fact it does exactly the opposite. And the proposed FDA deeming regs will virtually eliminate access to vaping products, meaning that the "common smoker" will not be able to be informed about vaping products, will not be able to get them, and will be left with only the pharmaceutical "solutions" that cost more than smoking, and don't work.

For liquids, there are many many good sources out there. If you have been buying "poor locally-made juice" what kind of regulation do you think would help? Flavor police? Regulations would definitely solve the juice problem, because you wouldn't be able to taste samples before you buy, you wouldn't be able to buy DIY supplies, you wouldn't be able to buy anything off the internet, so the poorly-made local juice, bought blind, would be your only option, if you could find any.

And "Cheap Chinese hardware"? Yes, it's available. And lots of it is not only cheap, but also of good quality. Not all of it. But nobody is forcing you to buy chinese hardware, and nobody is blocking the reviews and discussions of it, and nobody (at the moment) is preventing you from buying the hardware you decide you want, based on an informed decision. Regulations will change all that.

Can you name a single regulation (on anything) that ensures that what you're getting is "not junk"? People buy crappy cars, houses, TV's, tools, appliances, food, etc. etc. etc. The only legal protection you get for most anything you buy comes from laws about warranties, and that law applies to pretty much everything.

If you want your government to make you safe and happy, you really should think it over again, and perhaps read some Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Mike,

Have you read any of the proposed (and existing) legislation? Virtually NONE of it deals with quality control, or making vaping products more accessible to smokers; in fact it does exactly the opposite. And the proposed FDA deeming regs will virtually eliminate access to vaping products, meaning that the "common smoker" will not be able to be informed about vaping products, will not be able to get them, and will be left with only the pharmaceutical "solutions" that cost more than smoking, and don't work.

For liquids, there are many many good sources out there. If you have been buying "poor locally-made juice" what kind of regulation do you think would help? Flavor police? Regulations would definitely solve the juice problem, because you wouldn't be able to taste samples before you buy, you wouldn't be able to buy DIY supplies, you wouldn't be able to buy anything off the internet, so the poorly-made local juice, bought blind, would be your only option, if you could find any.

And "Cheap Chinese hardware"? Yes, it's available. And lots of it is not only cheap, but also of good quality. Not all of it. But nobody is forcing you to buy chinese hardware, and nobody is blocking the reviews and discussions of it, and nobody (at the moment) is preventing you from buying the hardware you decide you want, based on an informed decision. Regulations will change all that.

Can you name a single regulation (on anything) that ensures that what you're getting is "not junk"? People buy crappy cars, houses, TV's, tools, appliances, food, etc. etc. etc. The only legal protection you get for most anything you buy comes from laws about warranties, and that law applies to pretty much everything.

If you want your government to make you safe and happy, you really should think it over again, and perhaps read some Thomas Jefferson.

Lots of safety regulations on most things we buy. Not so for vape gear. Any safety recall on the iStick 50 watts?

 

[Jman8]

Lots of safety regulations on most things we buy. Not so for vape gear. Any safety recall on the iStick 50 watts?

Can you name a single regulation (on anything) that ensures that what you're getting is "not junk"?

If you want your government to make you safe and happy, you really should think it over again, and perhaps read some Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

The recent recall of contaminated spinach? The massive airbag recall? Those are still in the news. The poison pet food? The poison Heparin?
Google recall.

if you are counting on industry to keep you safe think again. It is a bad deal all around.
Industry's unsafe practices is what caused govt regulations in the first place.

 

[Jman8]

The recent recall of contaminated spinach? The massive airbag recall? Those are still in the news. The poison pet food? The poison Heparin?
Google recall.

So, all products under regulation(s).

Now can you name a single regulation (on anything) that ensures that what you're getting is "not junk"?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

So, all products under regulation(s).

Now can you name a single regulation (on anything) that ensures that what you're getting is "not junk"?

Yep, Lemon laws.
Testing for electrical products to help ensure that they will not burn up or electrocute you.
Food safety laws.

And required warning labels for safety. You buy a $10 SMPL clone from China and it comes with NO instructions on how to safely use it.
User manuals are required by law for most consumer products.

As to the junk aspect? We as Americans have eagerly bought into the disposable product scheme of things.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Yep, Lemon laws.
Testing for electrical products to help ensure that they will not burn up or electrocute you.
Food safety laws.

And required warning labels for safety. You buy a $10 SMPL clone from China and it comes with NO instructions on how to safely use it.
User manuals are required by law for most consumer products.

As to the junk aspect? We as Americans have eagerly bought into the disposable product scheme of things.

Buy junk if you want I want it to be required to be reasonably safe.
Why I fully support testing and regulations on the commercial manufacture of ejuice and also support full labeling requirements.
I want to know what is in my vapables so that I can decide whether to vape it or not.
DAP sure just post the contents on the label.
Unsanitary conditions during juice manufacture or imprecise nic contents I do NOT support.
Use of questionable PG/VG in juice manufacture I also do not support.
Make your own? Sure vape whatever you want.

 

[AndriaD]

Testing for electrical products to help ensure that they will not burn up or electrocute you.

That is done by Underwriters' Laboratory, which is NOT a gov't entity.

Food safety laws.

And yet people get salmonella constantly, and recently, Listeria. So much for food safety laws.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Yep, Lemon laws.
Testing for electrical products to help ensure that they will not burn up or electrocute you.
Food safety laws.

I think both of these do not ensure that what you are getting is not junk. Hence your earlier point about recalls.

In theory, regulations are nice. In practice, the things that pass regulations often carry with them a possibility for substantial harm, some of which is very much allowed (Chantix anyone?).

Point of this thread is there is right now in eCig market recourse from one or two bad products that OP has encountered. To think regulations will make things better than what we have now is as ludicrous of a position I have ever heard in the vaping community.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Nothing is perfect Andria. All we can do is all we can do.
You might want to check here. UL tests according to govt regulations pretty much.
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Business--Ma...neral-Use-Products-Certification-and-Testing/

 

[Kent C]

The recent recall of contaminated spinach?

FDA and USDA approved.

The massive airbag recall?

National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration approved.

The poison pet food?

FDA approved.

The poison Heparin?

FDA approved.

 

[puffon]

What about the ATF?.......

 

[Robert Cromwell]

FDA and USDA approved.



National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration approved.



FDA approved.



FDA approved.

All of the specific items above were certified by NON government testing or in the case of the Spinach likely no testing was done on it.

It is insane to expect regulations to fix all the issues, they just minimize impacts. Consider if the CDC did not exist how many would have maybe died from the spinach? They link up the cases and look for common cause. Darned govt agencies....

I am outta here on this one. Many think in absolutes not in the many shades of gray that are around us all the time.

 

[Kent C]

From an earlier post - google 'fda failed' and you'll get lots more.

"MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (CNN) -- The deadly outbreak of salmonella traced to a Georgia peanut plant was fueled by poor oversight by food safety regulators and a slow response by federal agencies, state health officials and outside experts say."

Should the FDA be responsible for the deaths? The FDA head indicted and sent to jail?

The point isn't that, but that the FDA didn't really 'provide the protection' that some think is absolute when done by gov't, and absent when it is done by business, who actually have the most to lose (other than the customers), if their products are tainted.

 

[nicnik]

The point isn't that, but that the FDA didn't really 'provide the protection' that some think is absolute when done by gov't, and absent when it is done by business, who actually have the most to lose (other than the customers), if their products are tainted.

No one believes either of those to be absolutes. Also, businesses have much to gain by engaging in dangerous shortcuts/substitutes, if they can get away with it.