Indiana Call to Action - Stop the Monopoly

[tmcase]

I'm not going to say that I am positive that I understand what you just said, but it sounds like the folks that have permits want to hold you fiscally responsible for any monetary losses they incur from your lawsuit being successful and aborting their attempted monopoly?

That about sums it up.

 

[Hoosier]

I need names Hoosier!

I hope you, the owners or employees of these six permit holders, are reading this. You six are going down in vape history as central members of the anti vape machine here in Indiana. I will do everything in my power to shout far and wide that you six are to be boycotted by vapers not only in Indiana but worldwide. I hope any vaper reading this does the same.

Indy E-cig, Sugar Creek Bottling, Vapor Bank, and Cravin' Vapes are the business names I recognize.

There is an Ohio and Florida company I do not recognize. All the business names submitted to ATC and in the filings are new company names and it takes me awhile to figure out who is owns which.

 

[englishmick]

Indy E-cig, Sugar Creek Bottling, Vapor Bank, and Cravin' Vapes are the business names I recognize.

There is an Ohio and Florida company I do not recognize. All the business names submitted to ATC and in the filings are new company names and it takes me awhile to figure out who is owns which.

Just got a report from someone who went to an Indy E-cig shop today to get coils. He asked the staff if anything was going to change for them after Deeming starts to kick in on Aug 8th. They said nothing would change and they would stay open. They said they didn't have a problem because they don't make their own house juice, it's made for them by a bottling company.

I'm not sure whether the store employees were responding in terms of Deeming or Indiana Regs, or both. Or just repeating what they read in a memo from head office.

I don't know how all the pieces fit together. After early July sometime the Indiana regs come into play. Then the only way shops can get out of state juice and (I think) hardware is for the shop to be licensed under extremely tight regs, and the supplier has to also be licensed by Indiana. Seems like it would be hard for a shop to survive only selling their "house" juice. Although if that's all people can buy I guess they will buy it. After July we won't be able to buy anything from out of State on-line.

The situation in Indiana is a complicated spider's web of interlocking regs. I don't understand it, maybe you do Hoosier.

 

[Hoosier]

The owner of Indy Ecig is co-owner of Sugar Creek Bottling.

It's not complicated if you've been hipdeep in it for a few years. It's unbelievable enough that when you tell people the truth, the typical response is to argue.

 

[Myrany]

I'm not going to say that I am positive that I understand what you just said, but it sounds like the folks that have permits want to hold you fiscally responsible for any monetary losses they incur from your lawsuit being successful and aborting their attempted monopoly?

That is how I read it.

 

[DC2]

That is how I read it.

Kind of like the burglar who fell through your roof and sued you.
It would be funny, if it weren't so hideous.

 

[pennysmalls]

Well the stuff is hitting the fan hard here in Indiana. Cravin Vapes is being being hammered hard by vapers for their involvement with this intervention. Cravin is telling everyone on facebook that they're being unwillingly dragged into this and are being included without their consent, yet court documents state the owner of Cravin is seeking damages along with the others. I don't see how they'll survive this backlash,
although they are permit holders and can sell juice come July 1st so we'll see. Indy E-Cigs is also on everyone's mind, people are very angry.

 

[Hoosier]

Yes, I have seen the anger. Understand it too. The documents are out for everyone to read for themselves...

My grandmother always told me that if I ever found myself in a hole, the first thing to do was to stop digging. I always said, how do I know it's actually a hole unless I keep digging? I really should have listened to her more then.

 

[Hoosier]

Really wish I could say more right now. Being goaded by one of the people seeking damages if we do manage to get an injunction next month. It would be so nice to not have to bite my tongue right now.

 

[zoiDman]

Really wish I could say more right now. Being goaded by one of the people seeking damages if we do manage to get an injunction next month. It would be so nice to not have to bite my tongue right now.

You have to Stay within the Legal Framework you are involved in. And sometimes that means Not Commenting on ongoing/pending actions.

Just Keep Fighting the Good Fight Hoosier and update us when you can.

 

[pennysmalls]

Well there's nothing to stop me from updating on the situation. After the drama on Cravin Vapes facebook page the owner Shawn Anderson decided to address the anger being sent his way with this post. Yes, it's a giant wall of text but this is how it was posted.

From Shawn Anderson: I have been reading the comments over the last couple of days. Since I saw the comment “The silence is deafening,” I figured I needed to say something. I cannot believe how fast an industry is willing to rip someone apart. There is a gentleman in Florida ripping me up, and yet have never had one conversation with the man. You journalist YouTubers need to stop trying to divide the industry. My company and I have worked tirelessly to try and save vaping in this state. Spent thousands of dollars and man hours towards the fight. Many of us have been working long hours trying to find ways to help the industry survive. All of it to keep the costs as low as possible and help keep as many flavors on the market as possible. I told the owner of a national brand just last week that I would be willing to damn near package for him at cost to keep his liquids in the state. I spent 3 months preparing my application for the state. It was over 650 pages, outlining my entire business. That’s because I wanted to be transparent as possible. That is something I cannot say about our state organization, which is ultimately why I, and others, left. The biggest problem with some of the resistance in our industry is based on lack of knowledge. So I gave them EVERYTHING they needed to know. Our company currently does mix on demand, while most of the rest of the state sells prepackaged e-liquid. This was a huge undertaking for us. Not only putting in a new facility, but also to change our entire business model. I reached out to many national advocates and asked what I should do. Many told me “Protect your business, even if that means working on it now.” This conversation took place this past December. I took those words under advisement and started my application. I had not known if I would be picked. I also offered for other local shops to buy part of the facility, because I felt it was right to share it with the industry. NO ONE else was willing to make the financial contribution to stay alive, so now I am being dragged through the mud. There were less than 20 applications to Mulhaupt’s NATIONWIDE! IF people are so worried now, where were you when this was happening? Probably being a keyboard warrior, like always There are more than 20 bottling facilities here in the United States. Why did none of these people get a license, or even bother to apply? This information was made public so that anyone nationwide could try. This was a huge cost and gamble for us with the deeming regs poised to come out this year, which they did. Those regs came in stylish fashion, only 2 days after I got approved. After reading the deeming regs, none of this will matter in 2 years as we will ALL be gone. I needed an LLC for the new company, and filed for that when I was over 50% done with my application. That happened to be in February. All along, all I was doing was trying to survive, and keep as many options in Indiana as I could. During all of this, I have been working with a flavoring company to remove all diactyl and related chemicals from our e-liquid. Trying to make sure I have a safer product. That project has been going on for over a year now. All the shop owners I have been talking to have been told about this project I’m working on, and are excited for the new liquids. Talk to the shop owners we have visited over the last month, we are just trying to survive a bad situation, all of us! When I have to look at all the employees in our 10 stores, I don’t think it is a “horse ....” excuse to keep the business going. Not just my stores, but the employees of all the stores I’m trying to help stay open. Most of these employees working and living paycheck to paycheck, it is NOT a horse .... excuse. Especially after one of my Fort Wayne employees told me on Friday how thankful he was for his job. He is one of the most talented mixers in the company. He goes on to tell me that his mother is a store manager at a local convenience store. She works more hours, gets treated unfairly, and makes less than he does. Those are the people I have to look at. The sad thing is, I am sitting here at 3am still wondering if it was even worth it to get a license. This was a legal play that was going to happen whether I was involved or not. To even think that any of us, that have been fighting, would try to hurt the industry, you are wrong. Go ahead and ridicule me, you won’t shake me. Keep trying to create more divide, we will rise above it. I am and will continue to fight for this industry, but cannot help if we are out of business.

Which didn't address the one reason people are angry. It blows my mind that he states this would have happened with or without him anyway and that it won't matter anyway because of the FDA. Oh it matters sweet cheeks. The sob story about his employees is just great in light of the fact that his actions, if successful, will put many many more people out of work, but hey at least his people are safe.

 

[nicnik]

Well there's nothing to stop me from updating on the situation. After the drama on Cravin Vapes facebook page the owner Shawn Anderson decided to address the anger being sent his way with this post. Yes, it's a giant wall of text but this is how it was posted.



Which didn't address the one reason people are angry. It blows my mind that he states this would have happened with or without him anyway and that it won't matter anyway because of the FDA. Oh it matters sweet cheeks. The sob story about his employees is just great in light of the fact that his actions, if successful, will put many many more people out of work, but hey at least his people are safe.

It's possible that his lawyer also told him to keep quiet, but he just couldn't help himself. Deleting his post won't do any good. Too late.

 

[pennysmalls]

If you're on Facebook this was just posted by Hoosier Vapers...

URGENT!!! Today at 5:30pm Eastern Hoosier Vapers chairman, Evan McMahon, will be doing a LIVE Facebook broadcast on a critical lawsuit update. Please share this notice in EVERY vape group.

 

[pennysmalls]

The preliminary injunction has been denied by the judge so it will be illegal to sell eliquid in this state without a permit as of July 1st. Hello black market.

 

[snork]

The preliminary injunction has been denied by the judge so it will be illegal to sell eliquid in this state without a permit as of July 1st. Hello black market.

...and all the other revolting parts of this law. It's an absolute travesty. Good luck to all Hoosiers in the future except those involved in this money grab. I hope they don't sell a single drop.

 

[Hoosier]

I kept my comments within what is allowed. I cannot comment directly on the case and things discussed among board committee meetings related to the case.

An Penny is correct, the injunction was denied. Not surprising as injunctions are designed to be exceedingly rare in Indiana. It was amazing we were even accepted for an injunction hearing given the high bar the law sets. The judge did grant the interveners motion to intervene, but denied the bond request since there was no injunction.

We will continue the fight in court. Being granted a hearing for injunction means we have a strong case.

 

[pennysmalls]

Hoosier I wanted to ask Evan a question but things were moving way to fast so I'll ask you here. This was probably gone over already at some point in the past but if it was I don't remember. Are vape shops barred from selling vg, pg and flavorings? I know that individuals can still purchase these items. My local is going to try to stay open selling just hardware but it would be awesome if they could supplement their income by carrying these things.

 

[zoiDman]

The preliminary injunction has been denied by the judge so it will be illegal to sell eliquid in this state without a permit as of July 1st. Hello black market.

 

[Hoosier]

Hoosier I wanted to ask Evan a question but things were moving way to fast so I'll ask you here. This was probably gone over already at some point in the past but if it was I don't remember. Are vape shops barred from selling vg, pg and flavorings? I know that individuals can still purchase these items. My local is going to try to stay open selling just hardware but it would be awesome if they could supplement their income by carrying these things.

Technically, yes they can as components are not in the law. Just the act of combining them with the intent to vape the result. If they were to instruct buyers how to use said components, then there could be an issue. The worst of those issues would be if a permit holder found out as they have the ability to enforce compliance through civil court with the law. (Basically, they are given an almost free pass to sue anyone or thing they may believe is circumventing the law that gives them a near monopoly.) We are unsure how ATC agents would react as the complete regulation guidelines have not been officially published. If there are no guidelines for the agents, they have a pretty wide open ability on interpretation empowered to them. (or, depends on how "pissy" the local agent is, some are what I would call good folks and some love to watch it all burn.)

Yes, Evan is quite busy. Some of the rest of the board is trying to pickup the overflow. It's been a busy evening and we knew it was coming early today...but couldn't say anything.

 

[pennysmalls]

Thanks Hoosier! I would buy all my DIY supplies from my local if it would help them. I'll have to go in and talk to them and see what their latest plan is.