Is taxing vaping impractical?

[sofarsogood]

If States tax e-liquids all they accomplish is to put their local suppliers and retail shops out of business. They lose the jobs that might have been created. Consumers can avoid a State excise tax by buying on line, or buying zero nic liquid and add the nicotine at home, or they go to DIY, which is eaier than cooking a typical dinner (at least for a lazy bachelor like me).

vaping is likely to be a trillion dollar industry world wide. It would be foolish for a State to drive away the industry and the jobs without a very good reason. So far there is no good health related reason.

With kids, absent a proven health issue, I think whether they are allowed to vape should be up to their parents. I wish vaping had existed when I was a kid smoking my first few cigs. May be we would have opted for 0 nic to blow some clouds for fun and then lost interest. What about a kid who smokes and might trade the cigarettes for vaping? It's not obvious to me that outlawing kids' vaping is a good idea.

 

[Norrin]

Well the sensible way to add to is to tax the nicotine (no government is known for using sense though) and buying online would result in import tax which you either pay or risk a hefty fine.
It would make more sense to support something which helps the nations health but I think we are all looking at tax, I'll just but loads of nic or maybe try no nic as I don't use that much anyway and recent reading tells me that it was never really the problem anyway.

 

[wheelie]

So a federal tax that all states have to charge how would that put everyone out of business? Is everyone going to run to China to buy their juice? I won't be. To me your points are nothing more that than rhetoric.

 

[sofarsogood]

Are there any States today where vape shops are selling e liquids with a State exise tax applied? If yes does the enabling law also address out of state purchases via mail order, or liquids made from scratch at home for personal use or adding nicotine at home to 0 nic liquids? Are zero nic fluids also subect to the excise tax? This is a whole different ball game from tobacco.

I am reading there are some local jurisdictions where it is against the law for minors to use Ecigs but does that also apply to zero nic?

My thinking is the vaping market is potentially so large and the public health implications so minimal that it would be fool hardy for states to discourage the industry. Trying to preserve tax revenues by taxing vaping is going to fail.

 

[stevegmu]

Amazon hasn't driven many physical store retailers out of business...

 

[sofarsogood]

Online purchase options PLUS a significant price disadvantage caused by State excise taxes would limit the potential of local retail shops and drive some out of business. It makes more sense for the states to embrase the industry and encourage it to become established locally. There is no way to preserve traditional tobacco tax revenues so they might as well make the best of it.

I visited my nearest vape shop yesterday to see how things are going. I paid a couple bucks more than online for some N mini coils to show support. SE Michigan has a lot of vacant retail spaces. Hopefully lots of vape shops will open and prosper. That's better for the State than losing the business to mail order.

 

[roosterado]

Minnesota has a 95% tax on E-Liquid at the wholesale level nic or no nic. Does not apply to online purchases-yet. 35 States have banned the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors and it applies to 0 nic.

 

[sofarsogood]

I found this about the MN excise tax. E-cigarettes Mail order purchases from out of state are subject to the tax but in most states that's true of all out of state mail order purchases. Zero nic liquids are NOT taxed so buying zero nic and adding nic at home would be a work around. Vaping hardware is not taxed so long as it comes with no fluids containing nicotine.

If my state, Michigan, did the same as MN I would make my own e liquids. I'm seriously considering that already because of the possibility of taxes. Currently I'm buying liquids online in 120ml bottles. Vape shop prices are already too high for me.

I suspect the devices aren't taxed because of legal barriers.

The customers who came in to the vape shop while I was there were young and old and obviously on limited budgets. They want to avoid the harm of cigarettes and they need the money they save by vaping. Taxing their smoking or vaping is cruel. Dig down and the people who run things in america are a nasty bunch.

 

[stevegmu]

If they are so hard up for money, perhaps they should quit vaping...

 

[sofarsogood]

Excise taxes on vaping is a bad idea for a bunch of reasons. Tobacco taxes are highly regressive, meaning tough on lower income people. Now a solution to tobacco addiction comes along that everybody can afford. Taxing it is genocide, mass murder. If this were ebola that's what we would say. A few thousand die of ebola, millions die from tobacco.

 

[roosterado]

I found this about the MN excise tax. E-cigarettes Mail order purchases from out of state are subject to the tax but in most states that's true of all out of state mail order purchases. Zero nic liquids are NOT taxed so buying zero nic and adding nic at home would be a work around. Vaping hardware is not taxed so long as it comes with no fluids containing nicotine.

If my state, Michigan, did the same as MN I would make my own e liquids. I'm seriously considering that already because of the possibility of taxes. Currently I'm buying liquids online in 120ml bottles. Vape shop prices are already too high for me.

I suspect the devices aren't taxed because of legal barriers.

The customers who came in to the vape shop while I was there were young and old and obviously on limited budgets. They want to avoid the harm of cigarettes and they need the money they save by vaping. Taxing their smoking or vaping is cruel. Dig down and the people who run things in america are a nasty bunch.

This is interesting. You are supposed to self report you rout of state eliquid purchases just like you are supposed to report your out of state or internet purchases subject to sales tax,.which no one does. We do not really have a Vape Shop in my city[tobacco shop has Juice and Innokin Products but high priced. But wonder if Minnesota Vape shops charge the same for 0 nic E Liquid. I meam 6 mg Jucie costs the same as 24 mg jucie. And 95% of wholesale cost is a High Tax

 

[supertrunker]

What is the justification for applying anything other than regular sales tax to anything vape related? Most other things that are heavily taxed have a clear risk of harm.

T

 

[WillyZee]

taxes are not going to stop vaping ... taxes may just happen to appear as vaping catches on.

we are still very early in the vaping era.

 

[roosterado]

Some state are Proposing taxing Electronic Cigarettes at the same rate as tobacco cigarettes. Philadelphia is proposing a 50 cents per mil tax on E-Liquid capped at $5 per 30 mils. That's enough to discourage many from switching to Electronic Cigarettes IMO. Tobacco sales have been down every quarter this year which means States Revenue from Cigarette Taxes are down. The States Depend on that revenue and they are going to try and get it 1 way or the other.

 

[WattWick]

Minnesota has a 95% tax on E-Liquid at the wholesale level nic or no nic. Does not apply to online purchases-yet. 35 States have banned the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors and it applies to 0 nic.

That is really odd. How do they uphold those laws? Zero-nic liquids is essentially cake flavoring. Has anyone tried to get away with selling the PG/VG mixture and flavors separately? How would this hold up in a court of law?

Not trying to point out what we all know. I'm genuinely curious how it works in practice.

 

[stevegmu]

Lawsuits are expensive...

 

[WattWick]

Lawsuits are expensive...

Unfortunately that's a damn good point.

 

[Racehorse]

Minnesota has a 95% tax on E-Liquid at the wholesale level nic or no nic.

The corresponding tax on analog tobacco products is what is driving people to ecigs. Last time I looked, more and more vaping businesses are opening in MINN as we speak.

IVMR.org reports that "Since Spring of 2013 – MN’s e-cig industry has soared from 6 stores to 100 plus"

 

[sofarsogood]

The best line I've written in 2014--a place is not corrupt because it's poor, it's poor because it's corrupt. That applies the same in America as it does in Afganistan or Ukraine. The reason for the mean spirited blatantly false attacks on vaping is to justify the taxes. Follow the money. We are not the people our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution.

To get around the law in MN the shops can sell unflavored juice with a high nic content and bottles of untaxed zero nic fluid with room to poor in and mix the high nic juice after the customer leaves the shop.

 

[stevegmu]

The best line I've written in 2014--a place is not corrupt because it's poor, it's poor because it's corrupt. That applies the same in America as it does in Afganistan or Ukraine. The reason for the mean spirited blatantly false attacks on vaping is to justify the taxes. Follow the money. We are not the people our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution.

What taxes? I know there are several state taxes, but those are few and far between and no federal tax...