Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[440BB]

The mechanism of lung damage from DA or AP is not known. We don't know if it is purely a chemical interaction, or, what is being thought now, it triggers an autoimmune response where the body essentially rejects the lung. In many cases of BO followed by lung transplant, the new lung also gets BO and dies, even without further exposure to DA or AP. So it may be a particular biochemistry in a person's body that works with DA to create the disease.

The rat inhalation studies show that not just the lungs are affected, but also mucosa/nasal passages. This is true with AP as well.

Thank you for explaining this Kurt.

Up to this point, I've been puffing (not inhaling) the likely diketone related liquids I like from time to time, thinking I was avoiding most of the risk. As the possible autoimmune response and nasal effects come to mind, I think it's time to keep diketones out of the liquids my wife and I use.

Ironic that this thread, suggesting there is not a probem, has helped clarify my understanding of the problem and helped me make better choices. I am glad we keep discussing these matters on ECF to help all the vapers here, new and old, make informed choices.

 

[Thundernoggin]

I get the math with 15 cents a bottle. But if vendor has 400 flavors, that would be $60,000 (per batch). I see that as a problem for smaller vendors, and a cost burden for any business. If a business feels it is the right thing to do, then I very much respect that decision. If a business is pressured into doing that, I think consumers ought to take that into consideration and have open debate around do we really need for our vendors to do this? Are there existing vendors willing to do this where we can get what we say we want, without placing that burden on all vendors? If yes, then it would seem like the debate ought to be very short.



14 million flavors refers to what vendor I purchase from says is total amount of combinations they can make with offerings they have. They do flavor shots, so if say they offer a cola flavor, and you could add in one of 25 different flavor shots, that is easy number to calculate. Then you can also add in 2nd flavor shot, such that you now have Vanilla, Raspberry Cola. So calculating the 2nd flavor shot combos with all the 1st flavor shot combos, leads to a fairy high number. Then realize they are doing this with around 400 or so base flavors (I dunno, may be more or less than 400 base flavors).

And because the compounds can occur naturally or arise after the initial flavor is produced, then in reality, all possible combinations would have to be tested, otherwise it is plausible that Vanilla could be compound free, as could Raspberry, as could Cola, but when mixed together, the compounds do arise. Therefore, need to test the Vanilla Raspberry Cola concoction just to be sure, and to appease the people who will say "you said none, but this lab test says some, therefore you are lying and don't care anything about our health. Just shows how greedy you are really."

I can see how testing would impossible for that vendor at this point. A vast number of options like that would be extremely costly.

You cannot make this conclusion. Natural extract flavors are often full of diacetyl, which is a naturally occurring compound in diary and some fruits. Plus they can contain a lot of other things I personally would not want to inhale (lipids, proteins, polysaccharides, etc). They cost more because they are more expensive to make than mixing synthetic flavor compounds...or they charge what their market will tolerate, or both.

Plus, the term "natural flavor" does not have the definition most people think. It only means it is a compound that is also found in the food. Isoamyl acetate is a natural banana flavor, but it is synthesized in a lab.

I am a co-author on the Farsalinos DA/AP publication (Kistler). I am also deeply involved with all things chemistry in the e-liquid industry, mostly as a consultant for AEMSA. I can assure you that I know of several companies that do test for DA and AP, and that they have either removed or are in the process of removing these chemicals from their recipes. Some have even developed pure-flavor lines that are verified free of them, as in working with the flavor industry to formulate these flavors.

DA and AP are NOT considered flavor ingredients by the FDA. They are considered adulterants, since they carry a known risk of serious injury or death.

The mechanism of lung damage from DA or AP is not known. We don't know if it is purely a chemical interaction, or, what is being thought now, it triggers an autoimmune response where the body essentially rejects the lung. In many cases of BO followed by lung transplant, the new lung also gets BO and dies, even without further exposure to DA or AP. So it may be a particular biochemistry in a person's body that works with DA to create the disease.

The rat inhalation studies show that not just the lungs are affected, but also mucosa/nasal passages. This is true with AP as well.

Bad news: these are not the only vicinal diketones used in flavorings. There are also hexanediones and heptanediones with vicinal carbonyls, and which also show lung damage in rats.

When asked what the safe amount of DA or AP could be in an e-liquid, all toxicologists that we contacted answered ZERO AMOUNT. NIOSH is for workers that have no choice with exposure if they want to keep their jobs. Defending what is essentially just a luxury flavor in vaping is not the same thing at all. They don't need to be there, there is a known risk, and so they should not be there. I concur with this professional opinion.

The risk of a highly publicized law suit is not worth taking, regardless of its merit or the lack thereof. And companies that I work with simply do not want to sell e-liquids with these compounds, period, end of story. We were blind-sided and horrified when we found out that the term DA-free did not mean that at all in many instances. AT BEST, this meant that consumers were robbed of informed consent. Ideally it should be the flavor companies that do the tests, I agree, but I know of many e-liquid vendors that are doing this themselves so they KNOW the results.

And DA and AP are actually not that easy to test for. The limit of detection and/or quantification should be ideally about 1 ug/mL, but this is hard to create the assay for. Just squirting a bit onto a GC-MS without standard solutions to compare to will tell you they are present, but not accurately how much is present. Accurately measuring relevant levels in e-liquids is VERY hard, since there are a LOT of flavor compounds of similar size to these, and peaks overlap in the flavor matrix. I have seen commercial labs claim they will test these for cheap, but when pushed on their limits of detection do not respond. I have also seen tests from labs stating the compounds are not present, but their LOD is 100 ug/mL or more!

But these compounds are not illegal, and people are free to vape what they like. I mean that. If you want them, have at it. If you don't, you should be able to have the opportunity to buy flavors verified to be free of them. Not just words on a website, which are clearly meaningless, but lab results on finished products. This IS happening right now, and it will continue to increase, I expect. And I would support companies that are doing this. They have spent a LOT of money making sure you are getting products that are as safe as our current understanding allows.

Thank you for sharing that with us Kurt and thank you for your previous contributions as well. I've been trying to buy something from every vendor that releases results and thank them for it. It has been great to see all the vendors popping up with test results.

 

[Kurt]

That makes sense. Perhaps synthetic flavorings are better. How does heat affect these dangerous substances?

That's hard to say, since the actual mechanisms are not known. But certainly higher heat will increase lung penetration. Enough heat and decomposition occurs, which then leads to all sorts of nasty compounds and radicals. But it seems from recent studies this also leads to "dry puff" which is quite detectable and naturally causes a halt to vaping.

 

[zoiDman]

Something else that I believe is Worth Mentioning when NIOSH REL's are used in comparison to e-Cigarette Vapor.

And that is the what role the Relative Humidity of an Air Sample with Regards to the Impact on Possible Effects seen from Da and AP Exposures.

 

[Kurt]

I DIY all of my e-liquids, and I'm a big fan of many of TPA's flavors (that don't use AP) and NicVape's E-Flavors. I'm sure there are other companies out there that are trying to do the right thing, but I tend to find what I like and stick with it. I am also a fan of unflavored or very low flavoring (5% or less, sometimes a lot less). I rarely go above 15W because VG juices tend to not wick as well, and I don't do PG. Or I am not as good as some with my Kayfun coil builds. But that is plenty of wattage for me...and I'm not a fan of thermal decomposition.

As for synthetic flavors, yes, even though I try to eat organic, I think simple synthetic flavors are in general safer for inhalation than a soup of biomolecules extracted from a food. Of course there may still be compounds out there that are not good to inhale, but taking care of the DA and AP problem will go a very long way for us. Now if we can solve the decomposition problem, this will be huge for us. That's a tougher issue, with the huge variety of attys and wattages available now.

 

[Jode]

Sure, if we asked for tests on every one of the thousands of chemicals used for flavoring, it might become impossible to make juice at a price people could afford. But how about we limit requests for testing to ingredients for there is legitimate cause for concern. I think that threshold has been reached with diketones, though I do understand that's a matter of opinion. I don't think we need to wait until there is scientific certainty.

As far as I am aware nobody has identified whatever chemicals produce strawberry flavor as having possibly caused lung disease, or as being toxic to cells in vitro. If that happened I think there would be a case for us to start asking about their use.

As far as consumer pressure goes the process is somewhat self regulating. Consumer pressure from 20 people would have no meaning. From 50% of vapers it would be overwhelming. It's the marketplace of ideas. You can't persuade a large percentage of consumers to start complaining about any chemical without something to back up your argument. Unless you stipulate that most of us are fools, which I don't think we are.

I understand your point and repeat that I am not trying to dissuade people from their personal concerns nor would I refer to them as fools for wanting to avoid what they believe is a legitimate concern. I am just not convinced enough to think it is the time to pressure ALL venders into testing. I cant say when I will be convinced exactly. I may change my views before there is scientific certainty but I am not there yet. I hear you that you want to build up the numbers of vapers behind your cause. I and some others just are not ready to jump on that wagon yet and maybe will never be ready, but that should not take away from what you do for yourself. BTW, there is a thread someplace here on ECF, something like "Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?" and I believe most fruits including strawberry have naturally occurring diacetyl. I think many people just think it is the custards or creamys they need to avoid, but in reality I think if you use any flavoring and are concerned over chemicals you are raising your risks.

 

[440BB]

I think being able to mix at lower flavoring percentages, or for non-DIY vapers, mixing in some unflavored liquid, is still the simplest way to reduce irritation and known/unknown risks.

I have noticed more postings about vaping unflavored lately, but I'm not sure whether more people are moving that way or they are just becoming more vocal about it recently. I had the opportunity to sample a number of unflavored nic samples, and found it was actually pretty satisfying.

 

[englishmick]

I understand your point and repeat that I am not trying to dissuade people from their personal concerns nor would I refer to them as fools for wanting to avoid what they believe is a legitimate concern. I am just not convinced enough to think it is the time to pressure ALL venders into testing. I cant say when I will be convinced exactly. I may change my views before there is scientific certainty but I am not there yet. I hear you that you want to build up the numbers of vapers behind your cause. I and some others just are not ready to jump on that wagon yet and maybe will never be ready, but that should not take away from what you do for yourself. BTW, there is a thread someplace here on ECF, something like "Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?" and I believe most fruits including strawberry have naturally occurring diacetyl. I think many people just think it is the custards or creamys they need to avoid, but in reality I think if you use any flavoring and are concerned over chemicals you are raising your risks.

Just FYI Jode, reading back through my post which you quoted it did come across like I was implying that "you" saw people who complained about chemicals as fools. Since you didn't appear to take it that way I'm guessing you got my meaning. In England people use the word "one" in that kind of sentence, in grammatical terms it's called the third person indefinite or some such. In America people tend to use "you", which does lead to a lot of unintended hard feelings. It takes a bit of effort to get ideas across in a forum setting.

"Unless one stipulates that most of us are fools" as opposed to "Unless you stipulate that most of us are fools".

Don't know why I just wrote all that, for some reason one found it appropriate. Or I was bored.

By the way you're right about diacetyl in fruit, I remember that thread.

cheers

 

[Thundernoggin]

That's hard to say, since the actual mechanisms are not known. But certainly higher heat will increase lung penetration. Enough heat and decomposition occurs, which then leads to all sorts of nasty compounds and radicals. But it seems from recent studies this also leads to "dry puff" which is quite detectable and naturally causes a halt to vaping.

One of the concerns that has come up before in these threads is how heat may effect the production of diketones. Many of us have used ultrasonic cleaners or warm water baths to steep e-juice or dissipate alcohols. I've become increasingly wary of my ultrasonic cleaner because of this but so far the information I've seen is limited. Should we be concerned about this?

 

[DeAnna2112]

I realize I'm not representative of the majority of vapers, but there are several flavors that I've been using for over a year, which I would like to keep using, but won't without knowing. Two are from a local B&M, so I'm pretty confident they haven't been tested. This leaves me little choice but to have them tested the next time I buy them. The only real alternative would be to try to replace them with DIY recipes, but then I'd have to have those tested too, to stay true to my pledge. As for the cost, it's just not a big deal to me.

I get why your doing what your doing and completely understand it. You vape something long enough and truly love it then that just might justify spending the money to test it....nothing wrong with that. I was speaking more towards the industry expecting customers to do this as the norm when purchasing juices in general.

 

[Rossum]

I get why your doing what your doing and completely understand it. You vape something long enough and truly love it then that just might justify spending the money to test it....nothing wrong with that. I was speaking more towards the industry expecting customers to do this as the norm when purchasing juices in general.

There's another very well known juice (I won't name it) that's in my rotation. I don't go through a lot of it, but I had been buying it with some regularity. The manufacturer doesn't make any claims, and I figured I'd end up getting it tested, but Google reveals that that a 3rd party in Canada had it tested back in February. 40ppm DA, no AP. Hmm...

 

[Racehorse]

Thank You for taking the Time to chime in on this Da / AP topic Kurt.

ditto here.

Pretty much my "model" for how I was going to go about vaping, I started to put together when in 2012-2013 I read every post by Kurt. (This was before he did the study with Dr. F.)

Sometimes, certain things just "ring true" for us on a intuitive level, and that was true for me when I read his posts. His understanding of chemistry and being a vaper and how to possibly "reduce" some of the possible risks in vaping all made sense to me.

Yes, this is an indirect Thank You.

That said, everyone should do what feels right for them.

 

[Racehorse]

I can assure you that I know of several companies that do test for DA and AP, and that they have either removed or are in the process of removing these chemicals from their recipes. Some have even developed pure-flavor lines that are verified free of them, as in working with the flavor industry to formulate these flavors..

I hope somebody adds them to the diketone free topic, or a clear list of these appears on the AESMA site, i.e. the ones who have removed and verified?

I love the idea of pure flavor lines!~

 

[Mazinny]

I hope somebody adds them to the diketone free topic, or a clear list of these appears on the AESMA site, i.e. the ones who have removed and verified?

I love the idea of pure flavor lines!~

I think Nicvape has that. According to their site, they worked with a root manufacturer to develop these flavors ( specifically for vaping ).

 

[Racehorse]

And DA and AP are actually not that easy to test for. The limit of detection and/or quantification should be ideally about 1 ug/mL, but this is hard to create the assay for.

I think this was a question many people had in earlier topics.

I've seen "5" for the ug/ml limit of detection, etc. You have to know what the LOD is before you can even judge the results.

What do you think is the usual LOD that most labs are actually *able* to create the assay for?

 

[sparkky1]

I DIY all of my e-liquids, and I'm a big fan of many of TPA's flavors (that don't use AP) and NicVape's E-Flavors. I'm sure there are other companies out there that are trying to do the right thing, but I tend to find what I like and stick with it. I am also a fan of unflavored or very low flavoring (5% or less, sometimes a lot less). I rarely go above 15W because VG juices tend to not wick as well, and I don't do PG. Or I am not as good as some with my Kayfun coil builds. But that is plenty of wattage for me...and I'm not a fan of thermal decomposition.

As for synthetic flavors, yes, even though I try to eat organic, I think simple synthetic flavors are in general safer for inhalation than a soup of biomolecules extracted from a food. Of course there may still be compounds out there that are not good to inhale, but taking care of the DA and AP problem will go a very long way for us. Now if we can solve the decomposition problem, this will be huge for us. That's a tougher issue, with the huge variety of attys and wattages available now.

Simple synthetic ? How are they safer ?
Decomposition of what DA ?

 

[Jode]

Just FYI Jode, reading back through my post which you quoted it did come across like I was implying that "you" saw people who complained about chemicals as fools. Since you didn't appear to take it that way I'm guessing you got my meaning. In England people use the word "one" in that kind of sentence, in grammatical terms it's called the third person indefinite or some such. In America people tend to use "you", which does lead to a lot of unintended hard feelings. It takes a bit of effort to get ideas across in a forum setting.

"Unless one stipulates that most of us are fools" as opposed to "Unless you stipulate that most of us are fools".

Don't know why I just wrote all that, for some reason one found it appropriate. Or I was bored.

By the way you're right about diacetyl in fruit, I remember that thread.

cheers

I had always understood that if "one" (hahaha) is trying to smooth a situation or calm a person down it is wiser to use words like "one" because "you" implies...well you or a personal finger pointing. Or leaving the word "you" out of the whole thing if possible. Express the concerns in terms of self. Instead of saying "You upset me by what you said". It could be "I was upset by the words in that post". Enough grammar for the day. I actually was not sure if it was implied that I thought this (the fools part) or not but wanted you and anybody else know that I would not think it foolish (never mind actually call somebody a fool) to have concerns. I have them as well, I have just put them in a perspective that works for me personally, thus lending to my position to this being a overblown for now (in the sense of asking for or demanding venders to disclose whether they want to or not or face shaming. In all honesty, when I read posts or studies from people like @Kurt or @KFarsalinos (not in this thread), I would be the fool, to completely dismiss any and all possibility that these chemicals have a potential to harm even despite lack of long term studies. I really have a difficult time to express where I stand on this whole issue because although I have a basic understanding of the issue I find it so overwhelming. Truth be told....I don't want to argue....I just want to vape!!

 

[skoony]

DA and AP are NOT considered flavor ingredients by the FDA. They are considered adulterants, since they carry a known risk of serious injury or death.

i don't mean to nit pick but,from what i understand if DA and AP meet the governments
definition of an adulterant why are they even being sold as food additives?
why hasn't the FDA rammed seventh fleet sized enforcement and regulatory
actions down our throats and sent us all packing years ago?

just asking and regards
mike

 

[Wow1420]

BTW, there is a thread someplace here on ECF, something like "Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?" and I believe most fruits including strawberry have naturally occurring diacetyl. I think many people just think it is the custards or creamys they need to avoid, but in reality I think if you use any flavoring and are concerned over chemicals you are raising your risks.

I'm under the impression that while fruit flavors may have diacetyl, the concentration is an order of magnitude lower than what is in butter/cream/custards. I'd be interested if anyone had more solid facts on this.

 

[David Wolf]

That's what, 2-3 hours worth of sub ohming?

Haha!