Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[Jman8]

@Kurt - do you think the issue(s) with DA and AP are overblown?

If not, do you think it is possible that vaping could be comparatively dangerous with smoking? I'm sure the answer is no, not as dangerous as smoking, but am interested in how one might reconcile that with a no answer to the the first question above.

I am also curious if you think substitutes for these compounds or lack of the compounds ought to be treated in vein of "we don't know the long term effects?" Put another way, are we plausibly creating another avoidable risk, by thinking we are avoiding this particular risk?

 

[zoiDman]

ETA: So here is the Big Question that I have.

What might be the Differences in Da / AP Absorption into the body between an "Air Sample" which contains some given amount of Da and AP to a Vapor Same of the same volume which contains the Same Amount of Da and AP?

Or put another way. Can we consider Absorption of Da and AP to be the Same for "Air" vs e-Cigarette Vapor?

 

[Kurt]

@Kurt - do you think the issue(s) with DA and AP are overblown?

If not, do you think it is possible that vaping could be comparatively dangerous with smoking? I'm sure the answer is no, not as dangerous as smoking, but am interested in how one might reconcile that with a no answer to the the first question above.

I am also curious if you think substitutes for these compounds or lack of the compounds ought to be treated in vein of "we don't know the long term effects?" Put another way, are we plausibly creating another avoidable risk, by thinking we are avoiding this particular risk?

Possibly, of course. I think as time goes on, however, the chances of a real danger become less and less. Let's hope no one gets injured from DA or AP. So far it looks good, given the popularity of creamy flavors and the numbers of vapers now. The dangers from smoking are many and varied, from toxic aldehydes to carcinogenic tobacco compounds to polyaromatics to combustion product free radicals to carbon monoxide. Is DA or AP as much of a health threat? Probably not, and they are two really big candidates, so removing them goes a very long way. Even NETs are pretty low risk, and it looks like any aldehydes that might be produced in vaping are immediately detected as dry-puff, and so exposure is most likely minimal at most. I think over time we are moving towards much more safe, rather than less safe. Perhaps we will find another flavor compound that is both toxic and popular, but my gut says it is less likely as time goes on. But I think there is no doubt that DA and AP should be avoided, if not removed from e-liquids entirely.

ETA: So here is the Big Question that I have.

What might be the Differences in Da / AP Absorption into the body between an "Air Sample" which contains some given amount of Da and AP to a Vapor Same of the same volume which contains the Same Amount of Da and AP?

Or put another way. Can we consider Absorption of Da and AP to be the Same for "Air" vs e-Cigarette Vapor?

That's a good question. In a way you are asking if the VG or PG acts either to potentiate or protect against absorption. I don't know. We assumed if it was emitted with a puff, then it was available for absorption just like in the air as gas phase, but that may not be true. It is possible that PG or VG protects against absorption. These vehicles act in a similar way to impede skin absorption of nicotine, so maybe something similar is happening in the lungs and mucous membranes with DA or AP in a VG/PG aerosol. But one would have to do rat or lung-cell culture studies with DA- or AP-laden vapor and compare this to just gas phase DA or AP to see if damage is more, less, or the same. Perhaps DA or AP in the vapor are absorbed more slowly, but are still absorbed, so still just as toxic. Not been studied that I know of. But its a good question!

 

[stevegmu]

We need studies on humans. I am sure there would be plenty of volunteers if mods and e-liquids were provided...

 

[zoiDman]

...

That's a good question. In a way you are asking if the VG or PG acts either to potentiate or protect against absorption. I don't know. We assumed if it was emitted with a puff, then it was available for absorption just like in the air as gas phase, but that may not be true. It is possible that PG or VG protects against absorption. These vehicles act in a similar way to impede skin absorption of nicotine, so maybe something similar is happening in the lungs and mucous membranes with DA or AP in a VG/PG aerosol. But one would have to do rat or lung-cell culture studies with DA- or AP-laden vapor and compare this to just gas phase DA or AP to see if damage is more, less, or the same. Perhaps DA or AP in the vapor are absorbed more slowly, but are still absorbed, so still just as toxic. Not been studied that I know of. But its a good question!

Yes... This is Exactly what I have been Considering lately.

And it would seem to be a Fundamental Parameter that would have to be Quantified before someone could make a Comparative Analysis between e-Cigarette Vapor and the NIOSH REL ppm recommendations for Da and AP Air Exposures.

If the Exposure Amount is the Same for Two Unique Scenarios (ie: Air vs Vapor) but the Total Absorption amounts are different, it would seem that a Correction would have to be made to an Exposure amount to Normalize the Total Absorbtion.

 

[Racehorse]

But I think there is no doubt that DA and AP should be avoided, if not removed from e-liquids entirely.

That puts you on the same page as Dr. Farsalinos.

It makes total sense what you are saying, that as time passes, vaping will become more safe than it already is now.

If we work on removing some of the flavorings that "may" pose inhalation risks---- while realizing that that idea is still somewhat nebulous and not entirely provable since it really is hard to compare mw popcorn exposure to vaping exposure without a big research project.

For me the key is *avoidable*. I tend to not want extra stuff in my products, even stuff I eat, that doesn't HAVE to be in there. My organic peanut butter has peanuts and salt. The store brands have peanuts, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, high fructose corn syrup. Peanuts already have oils, and I sure don't need the "extra" sugar. Therefore, I buy the brands that allow me to AVOID those adulterants.''

My theory has always been that everything that negatively affects our health is *cumulative*. Too much sun, too much sugar, too much fat, too much alcohol, etc. So I K.I.S.S. whenever possible. I just want to do that with vaping, too.

 

[Jman8]

Is DA or AP as much of a health threat? Probably not, and they are two really big candidates, so removing them goes a very long way. Even NETs are pretty low risk, and it looks like any aldehydes that might be produced in vaping are immediately detected as dry-puff, and so exposure is most likely minimal at most. I think over time we are moving towards much more safe, rather than less safe. Perhaps we will find another flavor compound that is both toxic and popular, but my gut says it is less likely as time goes on. But I think there is no doubt that DA and AP should be avoided, if not removed from e-liquids entirely.

I think if left to the free market, vaping has a great chance of becoming more safe, rather than less safe. I think there will likely exist options that are less safe, but that's what free market allows for.

I do have standing wager for anyone, includes you Kurt, that says if / when FDA regulates vaping, that there will be more incidences of harm. If such a wager interests you, do let me know. I think it will become noticeably less safe within 5 years of final rule, probably much sooner.

 

[LoveVanilla]

I do have standing wager for anyone, includes you Kurt, that says if / when FDA regulates vaping, that there will be more incidences of harm. If such a wager interests you, do let me know. I think it will become noticeably less safe within 5 years of final rule, probably much sooner.

As with the fire ......ants added to cigarettes?

 

[Nolongerpuffin]

they probably will along with citrus flavors.
http://tinyurl.com/o86xt8m
this is some nasty stuff.
regards
mike

I cannot tell you how glad I am to see this note. I am allergic to artificial citrus flavorings and this is the very first time I've been able to find out what in the hell the stuff IS!

I have had some *nasty* experiences with e-juices until I tried a single-flavor juice and figured out what it was I was reacting to.
thank you so much for posting this.

they probably will along with citrus flavors.
Citrus food flavouring is genotoxic, says EFSA
this is some nasty stuff.
regards
mike

 

[Racehorse]

Have you all stopped eating french fries because they can clog your arteries and cause you to become obese which leads to other various multitudes of health concerns? I think not.

What? I hope you do realize that there are many people who don't eat food like that.

I belong to a gym and a pool and nobody I know eats french fries....heck, most don't even eat fried foods at all.

this strange idea that everyone drinks soda, eats fries, greasy burgers, twinkies, and donuts or something n' cake etc. is really an assumption that doesn't fly. I truly don't have any friends or acquaintances who eat these things.

A typical "snack" would be a small serving of almonds, or a small tin of cottage cheese or greek yogurt or 1/2 an avocado. I Love those things!

so yes, many people eat very healthy ....... without processed foods, etc. I haven't eaten fast food in at least 22 years. I remember last time I did I had reflux for 3 days. Besides, I'd be as big as a house if I didn't eat right, not to mention I probably wouldnt' feel very good.

I cannot tell you how glad I am to see this note. I am allergic to artificial citrus flavorings and this is the very first time I've been able to find out what in the hell the stuff IS!

I have had some *nasty* experiences with e-juices until I tried a single-flavor juice and figured out what it was I was reacting to.
thank you so much for posting this.

That is a really good way to go about it, pretty much what I did and found out about cinnamon making me sick and also citrus giving me mouth sores!

 

[stevegmu]

What? I hope you do realize that there are many people who don't eat food like that.

I belong to a gym and a pool and nobody I know eats french fries....heck, most don't even eat fried foods at all.

this strange idea that everyone drinks soda, eats fries, greasy burgers, twinkies, and donuts or something n' cake etc. is really an assumption that doesn't fly. I truly don't have any friends or acquaintances who eat these things.

A typical "snack" would be a small serving of almonds, or a small tin of cottage cheese or greek yogurt or 1/2 an avocado. I Love those things!

so yes, many people eat very healthy ....... without processed foods, etc. I haven't eaten fast food in at least 22 years. I remember last time I did I had reflux for 3 days. Besides, I'd be as big as a house if I didn't eat right, not to mention I probably wouldnt' feel very good.




That is a really good way to go about it, pretty much what I did and found out about cinnamon making me sick and also citrus giving me mouth sores!

The younger generation does. Where I used to work I could see people gaining weight. Mostly those under 25 who would drink 6 or more energy drinks or sodas per shift, who would come into work with a bag of McDonalds and eat a pizza everyday on dinner break. It was quite common and looking at pictures and videos of vape events also common in the vape world...
Those who don't care about their health and what they eat also don't care about what they vape...

 

[Rossum]

The younger generation does. Where I used to work I could see people gaining weight. Mostly those under 25 who would drink 6 or more energy drinks or sodas per shift, who would come into work with a bag of McDonalds and eat a pizza everyday on dinner break. [...]

I would guess that at that age, most of us did the same stuff. Heck, pretty much all of us used to SMOKE at that age and didn't give the health consequences a second thought.

 

[stevegmu]

I would guess that at that age, most of us did the same stuff. Heck, pretty much all of us used to SMOKE at that age and didn't give the health consequences a second thought.

Not like I see it today. Maybe it just seems worse, I don't know. I saw a guy at work gain about 200lbs in 4 years...

 

[mechhunter]

Since there are concerns with DA AP, I choose to steer clear of it. I am sure other flavorings, as well as coil types and wicking material, will come under scrutiny in the future, and I will make a decision based on the information from reputable sources at the time.

Bottom line is we really won't know until further down the road and numerous studies are done. Especially with lab rats, because while not perfect, they are the closest analog we are willing to harm.

Frankly it's disappointing to me when implications are made that we don't need to worry because nobody has died yet.

 

[Jman8]

Far more disappointing to suggest we need to worry when the harm hasn't been substantiated. It's like a whole segment of the vaping community became gullible toward ANTZ rhetoric and is feeling self righteous in their need to worry about currently non-harmful ingredients

 

[zoiDman]

...

Bottom line is we really won't know until further down the road and numerous studies are done. Especially with lab rats, because while not perfect, they are the closest analog we are willing to harm.

Frankly it's disappointing to me when implications are made that we don't need to worry because nobody has died yet.

Did someone say Rats?

Necrosis of nasal and airway epithelium in rats inhaling vapors of artificial butter flavoring. - PubMed - NCBI

Respiratory and olfactory cytotoxicity of inhaled 2,3-pentanedione in Sprague-Dawley rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Diacetyl increases sensory innervation and substance P production in rat trachea. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Jman8]

Did someone say Rats?

Necrosis of nasal and airway epithelium in rats inhaling vapors of artificial butter flavoring. - PubMed - NCBI

Respiratory and olfactory cytotoxicity of inhaled 2,3-pentanedione in Sprague-Dawley rats. - PubMed - NCBI

These 2 studies are saying exposure to diketones showed up as significantly problematic immediately, to those exposed, having to be killed one day later due to the noticeable changes. Even when the exposure was reduced, the toxicity was immediately noticeable. Or from the second link:

To investigate delayed toxicity, additional rats inhaled 318 (range, 317.9-318.9) ppm 2,3-pentanedione for 6 hours and were sacrificed 0 to 2, 12 to 14, or 18 to 20 hours after exposure. Respiratory epithelial injury in the upper nose involved both apoptosis and necrosis, which progressed through 12 to 14 hours after exposure.

 

[zoiDman]

These 2 studies are saying exposure to diketones showed up as significantly problematic immediately, to those exposed, having to be killed one day later due to the noticeable changes. Even when the exposure was reduced, the toxicity was immediately noticeable. Or from the second link:

Gee... Then it sounds like Diketones have the Potential to cause Harm.

 

[YoursTruli]

The younger generation does. Where I used to work I could see people gaining weight. Mostly those under 25 who would drink 6 or more energy drinks or sodas per shift, who would come into work with a bag of McDonalds and eat a pizza everyday on dinner break. It was quite common and looking at pictures and videos of vape events also common in the vape world...
Those who don't care about their health and what they eat also don't care about what they vape...

Well not all of the younger generation as a matter of fact in my experience they are probably more earth/body/mind/spirit conscious than the older generations. My son (a chef), my daughter, their respective mates and the community of friends they are associated with (20-30somethings) are very conscious about not only what they eat but where/how it is grown.
Farm/local harvest/community supported agriculture and co-ops are a big thing here and all across the US along with growing your own and this movement is fueled by that age group. Driving that extra mile to buy co-op/locally grown produce/meat is something the younger generation is willing to do vs the older shop at the closest supermarket crowd and honestly the movement is so large that those big super market people are paying attention and seriously responding to this trend. The new Walmart Neighborhood Markets come to mind.

 

[stevegmu]

Well not all of the younger generation as a matter of fact in my experience they are probably more earth/body/mind/spirit conscious than the older generations. My son (a chef), my daughter, their respective mates and the community of friends they are associated with (20-30somethings) are very conscious about not only what they eat but where/how it is grown.
Farm/local harvest/community supported agriculture and co-ops are a big thing here and all across the US along with growing your own and this movement is fueled by that age group. Driving that extra mile to buy co-op/locally grown produce/meat is something the younger generation is willing to do vs the older shop at the closest supermarket crowd and honestly the movement is so large that those big super market people are paying attention and seriously responding to this trend. The new Walmart Neighborhood Markets come to mind.

The only ones I know in that age group in the US were from work, but they also thought monster trucks with smoke stacks were the coolest thing ever...