Isaiah 63

[Saintscruiser]

I have been studying Isaiah for the past couple of weeks and Isaiah 63:12-19 left me puzzled a bit in the New King James Version. So, I go to Bible Gateway to get a clearer understanding. In my Bible, there is a Sub-title of 'A Prayer of Penitence,' and I got stuck in verse 17 that says: O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, and hardened our heart from Your fear?

In my feeble mind, I know that Almighty God, Blessed Be His Name, doesn't make us do anything. It could be that Isaiah wasn't aware of free will. So, like I said, I go and read it in The Living Bible version. It is as follows:

Isaiah 63:15-19 Living Bible
15 O Lord, look down from heaven and see us from your holy, glorious home; where is the love for us you used to show—your power, your mercy, and your compassion? Where are they now? 16 Surely you are still our Father! Even if Abraham and Jacob would disown us, still you would be our Father, our Redeemer from ages past. 17 O Lord, why have you hardened our hearts and made us sin and turn against you? Return and help us, for we who belong to you need you so.18 How briefly we possessed Jerusalem! And now our enemies have destroyed her.19 O God, why do you treat us as though we weren’t your people, as though we were a heathen nation that never called you “Lord”?

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 63:17 for we who belong to you need you so, literally, “for your servants’ sake.”

Even in an easier translation, it is still in there. Now I have seen in Scripture where God does harden people's heart. Off the top of my head, Pharaoh's heart when Moses kept asking him to let God's people go.

Just feel free to jump in and try to explain this to me. Thank you!

 

[Ceejay0875]

One of my Bibles (Nelson Study Bible NKJV) has a cross reference for Isaiah 63:17 sending me to John 12:40-

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."

(Basically this is being quoted from Isaiah 6:10).

But anyway I have a study note in this Bible from John 12:39-40 that says this:

The consequence of repeated rejection is loss of the capacity to believe. Isaiah taught that some could not believe because God hardened their hearts (see Is. 6:10) after they repeatedly rejected the truth.

Does this help any? Sorry not real organized but kinda in a hurry but wanted to reply before I forgot...

 

[r77r7r]

Ty for taking the time to share that. Sundays are pretty busy around here too.

 

[mightymen]

Isaiah 63:17 Living Bible
17 O Lord, why have you hardened our hearts and made us sin and turn against you? Return and help us, for we who belong to you need you so.18 How briefly we possessed Jerusalem! And now our enemies have destroyed her.19 O God, why do you treat us as though we weren’t your people, as though we were a heathen nation that never called you “Lord”?

These verse were originally written in Hebrew and the meaning of US is not how it is understood to day in English.

You and I are US.
Me and them are US.
You, me and them are us.

But in Hebrew the meaning is on the - object of authority.
We, us, our: Avinu malkeynu (our Father, our King); asher kidishanu (who has sanctified us); ashamnu (we have been guilty).
Judaism 101: Hebrew Language: Root Words

So I understand Isiah as an acknowledgement of failure.

 

[mightymen]

Pharoah was NOT interested in worshipping the God of Abraham so clearly God harden Praroah heart towards the Jews. As in angry with them.

Isaiah was calling out to God therefore it is two different understand of harden the heart.

As far as God's power, mercy, and compassion it was seen by Adam the first man and it has always been available for all since the creation. All it takes is submitting to Gods will.

1. All things exist by the power of God.
2. God's mercy is evident by the fact we don't deserve to exist but we do.
3. We are here because God has shown and shows compassion towards us and sent His only begotten Son. Through His Son Jesus we are made RIGHTIOUS.

Acts 4 verse 12 Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

We don't deserve it but God power, mercy and compassion never left us - its always has been here - His power, mercy and compassion is evident in His creation. If the people or Prophets don't see it then its because they haven't submitted to God.

Though maybe that is exactly what the Prophet Isaiah is pointing out.

 

[mightymen]

The root meaning of the Hebrew word translated “to harden” is “to strengthen.” God hardens people by strengthening the resolve they have formed in their own heart. For example, six times Scripture says “the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Ex 9:12; 10:1; 10; 27; 11:10; 14:8). - See more at: God Hardens Hearts - What Does That Mean? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

Harden = chazaq

chazaq: to be or grow firm or strong, strengthen Strong's Hebrew: 2388. חָזַק (chazaq) -- to be or grow firm or strong, strengthen

What Is Chazaq
It's an old Hebrew word that's used over 300 times in the bible. It is a uniquely strong and powerful descriptor of "courage" that comes from God. What Is Chazaq?: What Is Chazaq

Now apply that to the context of what Isaiah was saying... Along with US.

 

[mightymen]

In the Living Bible it says "why have you hardened our hearts and made us sin" in verse 17;

Though when I look in my 1611 reprint it say " Why has thou made vs to error from thy ways"

Meaning of sin is error not getting right.

Clearly I understand Isaiah is looking for the reason and question what to do.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Now when we talked about this, MM, the way I understood it from you was Isaiah was blaming God for his sin. I remember Flip Wilson used to say, "Da devil made me do it, honey!" It has to be because Isaiah felt he was doing 'right' in the eyes of God, but of course, he wasn't. How many times has man blamed God for their errors! It's so easy to blame someone else for our short comings. Now in the New Testament, being under Grace, we have had extensive teachings on 'free will.' Did Isaiah not understand that God gave us free will? I honestly don't know as I truly haven't studied the Old Testament like I have the New Testament. It's something to ponder. Has anyone read anywhere in the Old Testament God's teaching of free will?

 

[mightymen]

Moses said do this and you'll be blessed. Do that and you'll be cursed.

Choices = free will - whether they understood or not they were acting on free will.

Isaiah was blaming God I can see that in the fact he was crying out to God though he also understood that he would be strengthen in resolve which is find a solution to (a problem, dispute, or contentious matter).

 

[Saintscruiser]

Were you trying to have 6 bananas = number of man, MM, or did you miscount the 7 bananas = God's perfect number?

Keep your hand out of the fire and you won't get burned. Put your hand in the fire and you will get burned. That is a choice, but it doesn't really spell out and explain God's gift of free will, like in the New Testament. That is all I was trying to say.

 

[mightymen]

Were you trying to have 6 bananas = number of man, MM, or did you miscount the 7 bananas = God's perfect number?

Keep your hand out of the fire and you won't get burned. Put your hand in the fire and you will get burned. That is a choice, but it doesn't really spell out and explain God's gift of free will, like in the New Testament. That is all I was trying to say.

I know I see free will right away In Genesis where God gives Adam the authority to name the animals - That was free will then again God brought the Eve to Adam and Adam had the authority and called her women.

Again when Eve took of the apple it was an act of free will and when she gave it to Adam he took of it another act of free will. God is showing us that man has the authority to choose for himself. Though as there are good choices there are also bad choices that are wrong/sin that lead to death.

 

[Ceejay0875]

Ok so taking another look at this passage in Isaiah it looks like 63:15-64:12 is an act of intercession for the people. Yes he is crying out to God on behalf of the people and includes himself with them in this. It seems like it would be very similar to us interceding for our own nation. The general populace has gone astray and society as a whole doesn't seem to care one way or another about God, nor do they see the need to repent because they are all doing what is right in their own eyes. So when we stand in the gap we confess and repent of the sins of the nation, even if some of the sins are things we ourselves have not actually done.

I think Isaiah was aware of the concept of free will because the Israelites were given the choice:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

And Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Saintscruiser]

CJ, I have Joshua 24:15 in view of walking into my apartment! Cool choice of Scripture. I have totally done a TERRIBLE job of trying to explain my position. If it doesn't come out correct this time, you ALL (except you MM, LOL) can throw tomatoes!

What I was trying to point out, and have done such a icky job, is that the concept of God giving us free will as a gift, isn't really taught in the Old Testament. Scripture states....do this and this will happen, or do that and that will happen. Right and Wrong. But because God won't make us worship Him, He has given us, along with Grace, free will. As I mentioned, I didn't see that in the Old Testament. I have seen it in the New Testament. I love everyone getting in on this!!!!! SO COOL!

Okay........throw tomatoes NOW!

 

[Ceejay0875]

Ummmm...I didn't buy any tomatoes at the store this week...got a giant bag of those little red potatoes on sale but I think those would hurt....

It is cool that He gave us the gift of free will-could we really love Him any other way? Think about it. How can you love someone who demands it? Love is a choice all around. For someone to say "You will love me and worship me and I will be everything to you..." uhhhh....nope. At least I'm not wired that way so maybe I'm just a weirdo...

As for everyone chiming in on the discussion it's kinda funny because this last Sunday my church kicked off our fall semester of small groups and none of them really seemed to grab me this time around and then this pops up so guess what-I've adopted you all-you're my new small group.

 

[r77r7r]

Ummmm...I didn't buy any tomatoes at the store this week...got a giant bag of those little red potatoes on sale but I think those would hurt....

It is cool that He gave us the gift of free will-could we really love Him any other way? Think about it. How can you love someone who demands it? Love is a choice all around. For someone to say "You will love me and worship me and I will be everything to you..." uhhhh....nope. At least I'm not wired that way so maybe I'm just a weirdo...

As for everyone chiming in on the discussion it's kinda funny because this last Sunday my church kicked off our fall semester of small groups and none of them really seemed to grab me this time around and then this pops up so guess what-I've adopted you all-you're my new small group.

Yay!

 

[mightymen]

adopted - yes

SC thanks; you open my eye's again my sister. Here all along when I was asked about free will. I went into scripture as proof just like I did a few post back. But boy did you make life simple for me. Yeah it became easier over time but there was always that ying yang - back and forth. Not no more. Am really starting to see more of God in "His creation". Are we not Gods creation?

It's now very simply - "Look around, all around, everywhere who is forcing you to worship God?" and leave at that.

Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them.

20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense.

21 For even though they knew God [as the Creator], they did not honor Him as God or give thanks [for His wondrous creation]. On the contrary, they became worthless in their thinking [godless, with pointless reasonings, and silly speculations], and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God for an image [worthless idols] in the shape of mortal man and birds and four-footed animals and reptiles.

 

[r77r7r]

Have Been Clearly Seen! AMEN!

 

[Saintscruiser]

I knew that Romans 1:20 was within Scripture somewhere. Thank you, MM, for showing me where. WOOOOO HOOOOO!!!!

I realize that I started out with Isaiah stating that God hardened his heart. I never even saw where there was penitence! I only take sections to study, whether it be a chapter or section. Well, until this morning, I didn't realize that the 'Prayer of Penitence' section went through Chapter 64. I was thinking, 'you screwball!!!!!'

Isaiah 64 New King James Version
64 Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—
2 As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!
3 When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down,
The mountains shook at Your presence.
4 For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O Lord,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all we are the work of Your hand.
9 Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
10 Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

There it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure!!!!! ADOPT ME!!!! Send my child support by the end of the month!!!! Wrong kind, huh. Drats!!

 

[Ceejay0875]

Haha child support! I'm a stay at home homeschooling mum-I got nuttin'! (You want a teenager in lieu of payment?-jk he is pretty cool I think I'll keep him)

 

[mightymen]

Haha child support! I'm a stay at home homeschooling mum-I got nuttin'! (You want a teenager in lieu of payment?-jk he is pretty cool I think I'll keep him)

I did the homeschooling thing out of necessity son developed bad allergies back in the 6th grade that caused his asthma to kick in almost every day. Single parent horror story. Been there done that. He's twenty two now..