"It only takes ONE bad chemical"

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Kent C

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The real question is, are you the rock or the hard place?
:D

I meant, wrt you - on that subject....

There can be no compromise between a property owner and a burglar; offering the burglar a single teaspoon of one’s silverware would not be a compromise, but a total surrender—the recognition of his right to one’s property. A.R.
 

Moonbogg

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Nope. COPD is an obstructive lung disease. B. O. would be a DESTRUCTIVE lung disease -- and just for the record, asthma differs because it is a RESTRICTIVE lung disease.

The only "relation" of COPD to B. O. is that B. O. can SEEM a lot like COPD, so it [B.O.] is often misdiagnosed; B. O. can only be diagnosed correctly by a lung biopsy, which many are reluctant to do, unless treating the patient for COPD is not working.

Sorry, but they are both obstructive lung diseases with similar symptoms.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nas/RDRP/ch4.2.htm

Direct from the CDC (unless you think they are LYING) :lol:

"Two forms of fixed obstructive airways disease are considered in this section: COPD, which is characterized by chronic airflow limitation arising from airways disease and emphysema; and bronchiolitis obliterans, a disease causing fixed obstruction involving the distal airways and alveolae."

Both are caused by airway obstruction.

From the American Thoracic Society, starting at bottom of page 427, suggests that COPD is often diagnosed when BO should have been, especially in non smokers who get "COPD".

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.200706-837ED

"van Rooy and colleagues(8) observe that a diagnosis of chronic obstructive lung disease hinders investigation of occupational etiology. Perhaps bronchiolitis obliterans is a more common finding than we think in those with obstructive disease, including severe asthma with only partial reversibility. The occupational contribution to chronic obstructive lung disease is itself substantial, after taking cigarette smoking into account. The median population-attributable risk for the proportion of chronic bronchitis or chronic obstructive lung disease due to work-related factors is 15% among many recent studies(15).Among never-smokers, the attributable fraction may be as high as 31% (16). Never-smoking patients and young smokers with obstruction may be sentinels for new causes of airways disease that, like flavoring, have been present for decades but await recognition through clusters and epidemiologic study."

BO may be more common than anyone realizes, both among smokers and non smokers. The automatic response is to diagnose COPD, but this may be in error based on the above source and based on common sense.
We have entered a new era where more non smokers are exposed to diketones than ever before, and it shouldn't be hard to see a pattern emerge, when and sadly if, it does.
 
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Kent C

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And to comment on the post by @KentC above re the socialization aspect: I find it troubling that those who profess to be "concerned for others" so often narrow their definition of "others". I'm an "other" as well.

Exactly right. I implied it here: "under the guise of 'caring for others' while dismissing and not caring about others who disagree with them".

And it points to this:
" "Caring" in the form it takes in socialism/altruism - taking away individual responsibility where people become dependent on gov't rather than themselves. They create victims with that philosophy. (and voters, which is the real intent.) That's cold hearted and deceitful as well."

They know they won't get your vote. Nor mine... ;)
 

Moonbogg

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This is the thing that concerns me, as I think there may very well be some truth to it.

Yeah, no kidding. Good thing no one has to take moonbogg's word for it. There are plenty of really smart, qualified experts working on it right now, some of which I cited. Problem is, anytime an expert mentions ANYTHING that may have the slightest negative implication for vaping, they are dismissed as ANTZ and as having an agenda. Absolutely ridiculous.
You have talented, very bright young graduates with hopes, dreams and a strong desire to succeed in life, and they go to work for institutions like the CDC and the ATS, but when they say anything negative about vaping, people assume their life's work revolves around ruining vaping? :lol::lol:
 
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AndriaD

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Really!! :) And this is the thing about the free market vs. 'central planning'/socialism. There is no way for anyone at the 'console' of the computer that can determine what the wants and needs of people are.

I can't imagine all the data, circumstances, etc. that someone with asthma or other debilitating disease has to consider. And no one else can either - except the person themselves. And that isn't just about people with illnesses - although much more thought applies - but for people making choices in any market - personal choices that no one else may know - even the vendor might not but the 'market' actually will by demand for things.

If people don't want diketones in eliquid - that's where the market and vendors will go - for those who don't - they'll lose money and/or go out of business - just like those who 'advocate' that would love! lol. You don't need a SWAT team going into their stores like for unpasteurized milk - something obviously some people want, but now can't have 'legally'.

If some want diketones for taste and some don't want any - a market will form accordingly. Those who want to know exactly, should ask or should do their own testing. Vendors who think that it may be a consideration for most of the customers will do their own testing or subcontract it out. Vendors who don't think that, won't - but may wonder where their sales went... or why they rose. :- )

That's why I like your "Well thanks for the update" lol....

As I've mentioned before... When those Nicotrol inhalers first became available, I saw real potential there for my own smoking cessation, so I asked my doctor about it -- they were only available by prescription. He told me that he was not allowed to prescribe the Nicotrol inhaler to me, because of my medical history of asthma. So I asked, 'You mean it would be worse for me than continuing to smoke?' He said, no, absolutely not, but his hands were tied BY LAWS AND REGULATIONS. So I responded, 'So in other words, those who would MOST benefit from this, are just SOL?' He nodded, and shrugged. And I kept smoking.

Until e-cigs. Since I can use them WITHOUT NEED OF LAWS, REGULATIONS, OR PRESCRIPTION, now I don't smoke.

This is just ONE of the many EXCELLENT reasons why I am 100% absolutely totally and completely AGAINST *ALL* regulations pertaining to e-cigs. The gov't and regulatory bodies COULDN'T FIND THEIR BUTTS WITH BOTH HANDS, A FLASHLIGHT, AND A MAP! They couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel!

They're total, complete, and unmitigated IMBECILES who shouldn't be in charge of stray dogs, nevermind people!

Andria
 

Kent C

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He said, no, absolutely not, but his hands were tied BY LAWS AND REGULATIONS. So I responded, 'So in other words, those who would MOST benefit from this, are just SOL?' He nodded, and shrugged.

Wow... so the 'experts' are stopped as well as to what they recommend (in reference to another citing experts). :- ) I think they're also stopped in what they study or how they perform those studies, and of course, what conclusions they reach.
 

AndriaD

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If one is inclined to rewrite the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for the US, might as well rewrite the Hippocratic oath as well.

They already seem to have totally forgotten the "First, do no harm" part of it.

Andria
 

Jman8

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"van Rooy and colleagues(8) observe that a diagnosis of chronic obstructive lung disease hinders investigation of occupational etiology. Perhaps bronchiolitis obliterans is a more common finding than we think in those with obstructive disease, including severe asthma with only partial reversibility. The occupational contribution to chronic obstructive lung disease is itself substantial, after taking cigarette smoking into account. The median population-attributable risk for the proportion of chronic bronchitis or chronic obstructive lung disease due to work-related factors is 15% among many recent studies(15).Among never-smokers, the attributable fraction may be as high as 31% (16). Never-smoking patients and young smokers with obstruction may be sentinels for new causes of airways disease that, like flavoring, have been present for decades but await recognition through clusters and epidemiologic study."

BO may be more common than anyone realizes, both among smokers and non smokers.

How did you arrive at that conclusion from what you noted?

The automatic response is to diagnose COPD, but this may be in error based on the above source and based on common sense.

Not common sense to assume that all medical personnel have been wrong in their diagnosis. Instead, that would be "wildly assumptive." The whole "may be in error" is twisting what is currently available to fit narrative you apparently want to be true.

We have entered a new era where more non smokers are exposed to diketones than ever before, and it shouldn't be hard to see a pattern emerge, when and sadly if, it does.

Methinks you're kinda counting on it. And using "tragedy" to bolster your position thru appeal(s) to emotion.
 

Jman8

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Problem is, anytime an expert mentions ANYTHING that may have the slightest negative implication for vaping, they are dismissed as ANTZ and as having an agenda. Absolutely ridiculous.

I agree, it is absolutely ridiculous to make this type of assertion. I use the ANTZ term perhaps more than anyone, and do not use it based on slightest negative implication. Instead, I'd use it if someone has inflated concern about something AND then thinks it ought to be mandatory that the whole industry change due to this concern. Never mind how reasonable the concern is, the fact that the industry must change, or tragedy will ensue, is what makes someone sound a lot like ANTZ in their rhetoric.

Like Dr. F. saying that diketones have been detected in high amounts in certain eLiquids, does not make him sound like ANTZ. Not even a little bit. But when Dr. F. takes the non-scientific opinion and asserts "they should be avoided" and or "industry should eliminate them from all products," then that's when I say Dr. F. sounds like he's utilizing ANTZ rhetoric.
 

stevegmu

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Yeah, no kidding. Good thing no one has to take moonbogg's word for it. There are plenty of really smart, qualified experts working on it right now, some of which I cited. Problem is, anytime an expert mentions ANYTHING that may have the slightest negative implication for vaping, they are dismissed as ANTZ and as having an agenda. Absolutely ridiculous.
You have talented, very bright young graduates with hopes, dreams and a strong desire to succeed in life, and they go to work for institutions like the CDC and the ATS, but when they say anything negative about vaping, people assume their life's work revolves around ruining vaping? :lol::lol:

Addiction is a powerful thing...The mythical ANTS lurk in every corner; a product of the delusions that the world revolves around vaping...
 
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AndriaD

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I agree, it is absolutely ridiculous to make this type of assertion. I use the ANTZ term perhaps more than anyone, and do not use it based on slightest negative implication. Instead, I'd use it if someone has inflated concern about something AND then thinks it ought to be mandatory that the whole industry change due to this concern. Never mind how reasonable the concern is, the fact that the industry must change, or tragedy will ensue, is what makes someone sound a lot like ANTZ in their rhetoric.

Like Dr. F. saying that diketones have been detected in high amounts in certain eLiquids, does not make him sound like ANTZ. Not even a little bit. But when Dr. F. takes the non-scientific opinion and asserts "they should be avoided" and or "industry should eliminate them from all products," then that's when I say Dr. F. sounds like he's utilizing ANTZ rhetoric.

I agree. It's one thing to note something exists. But to then extrapolate some prescription that "ought" to be followed far exceeds scientific inquiry, indeed it exceeds so-called "common sense" -- scientists are NOT "social welfare pundits" and if they try to be, they risk their professional integrity and lose their credibility as scientists.

Andria
 

Kent C

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I agree. It's one thing to note something exists. But to then extrapolate some prescription that "ought" to be followed far exceeds scientific inquiry, indeed it exceeds so-called "common sense" -- scientists are NOT "social welfare pundits" and if they try to be, they risk their professional integrity and lose their credibility as scientists.

Andria

Exactly right. Going back to the ole' is/ought false dichotomy stuff.... :)
 

englishmick

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In a free market - everyone has an equal opportunity to access information, just like everyone would have an equal opportunity to get a job - vs. where your side always wants equality of 'result' rather than 'opportunity' and that take force to accomplish - forcing others to pay for those who don't care to find information or to get a job.

In theory. But in reality how would I have ever known that ignition locks sometimes malfunction and turn off critical systems in the car. Or the air bags in my old Honda could propel metal fragments into my brain. Or that some guy's peanuts might kill my children. I sure as hell know that the manufacturers wouldn't have told us, they covered up for years until the government outed them.

I understand about personal responsibility. I like reading and poking around the internet. But when it's me against a huge immoral corporation I'm at a bit of a disadvantage. It was different when it was me doing business with the village blacksmith, or the local vape shop. Some types of risk are just not amenable to individual discovery, or even internet group efforts. That's part of the reason why we band together and form unions and political parties, etc, to give us a fighting chance against the corporations. I know that strategy isn't perfect but neither is rugged individuals standing alone against the unholy armies of corporate America.

Fears about diketones have been around for years. Enough for me, like yourself, to start avoiding them. And with the current vaping market and the internet we are dealing with it quite well I think. For now.

I'm not looking forward to the FDA running the vaping show. But I wouldn't want the corporations running it unchecked either. I suspect the days of multiple small vaping supply companies are coming to an end. Not just because of the government and corporate bribery, all that money would bring consolidation and corporate control anyway. It always happens, they can make stuff cheaper and market it better and squeeze the little guy out. At this point in time what percentage of juice is actually made by small vendors? The corporations are already inside the walls, making juice for small sellers cheaper than they could make it themselves. I was reading about that here a while ago.
 
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AndriaD

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I understand about personal responsibility. I like reading and poking around the internet. But when it's me against a huge immoral corporation I'm at a bit of a disadvantage. It was different when it was me doing business with the village blacksmith, or the local vape shop. Some types of risk are just not amenable to individual discovery, or even internet group efforts. That's part of the reason why we band together and form unions and political parties, etc, to give us a fighting chance against the corporations. I know that strategy isn't perfect but neither is rugged individuals standing alone against the unholy armies of corporate America.

That's true... however nowadays the guys that are supposed to protect us from the corporations, are BENT OVER for the corporations, saying thank you sir may I have another!

The wolves are not just guarding the henhouse, they're RUNNING IT for their personal delectation!

Andria
 

Kent C

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In theory. But in reality how would I have ever known that ignition locks sometimes malfunction and turn off critical systems in the car. Or the air bags in my old Honda could propel metal fragments into my brain. Or that some guy's peanuts might kill my children. I sure as hell know that the manufacturers wouldn't have told us, they covered up for years until the government outed them.

What I said was not 'in theory' - my point was that your side wants "equality of result" - when it turns out that everyone is equally miserable, vs. "the equality of opportunity" - where people have the access to information. How each handles it is up to them. They have the best take on their particular situation - as with Andria and no socialization of info, is going to address anyone specifically.

What you listed were things the gov't imposed on Honda, VW, et al., and who approved of the peanut butter - as I noted in an earlier post - FDA - those 'assurances' that you want from gov't - they don't really provide. So it's up to you (or some cloud of similarly interested individuals). Aprivate company like UL listing or even Consumer Reports have much better info than the gov't on certain things and more reliable as well. If gov't didn't provide those things or if more people realized that gov't isn't very good at it, perhaps more jobs and opportunities would open up to other similar companies. They would survive by providing objective information rather than info bought and paid for by bribes and kick backs. If a private info company would do that, they'd be out of business.

Your orientation against - big corporations and evil businessmen is just a result of your education by people/and curricula with the same mindset, media and movies, which promote the same viewpoint where when real world stats vs. what is depicted in movies and TV comes no where close to what you see, where every boss is a polluter, sexist, racist, homophobe or a fraud or murderer. That's where your 'theory' doesn't match reality. Your utopia, in that sense, is the former USSR, East Germany and now North orea where no businesses allowed. China, no longer applies but your Mao's China would have.

I've never said the 'free market' is perfect. And it sometimes isn't 'pretty' - it can... as do some smoke and vapor evidently, "offend the senses", but it does no harm. When you allow consensual adults making consensual exchanges, you're going to also get gambling, drugs, prostitution and other vices ..... see my post here:

Counterpoint: This sin tax is not about protecting kids(Opinion)

... but it is only in those countries who have (or had like we have had) a free market economy that doesn't end in equal misery for all - which is the result of the non-free market countries, and in many cases purges/cleansing/genocide ( hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Milošević) to name only a few - all socialists (and/or totalitarian where the gov't decides, not the individuals), where there are suicides, murder and corruption, and leaders who have all the money and power. Countries with free markets are the only places where there IS a middle class. Yet regulations and taxes that you support against evil businesses is what loses jobs, wages and the middle class.
 

philoshop

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I can't buy into the "big evil business" thinking.
Being successful in one's business is not a crime.
When an entire industry (and this would include the 'industry' that the federal government has become) is allowed to manipulate and use the power of government agencies for its sole benefit, I would consider that a crime.
 

BrentMydland

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PG is used in inhalers.
I hear this a lot and I think its a bit silly. Yes, PG is used in inhalers but no one is using an inhaler anywhere close to what people are vaping. You take longer drags more frequently and are inhaling much larger amounts than anyone would get just using an inhaler. It could very well be that its okay in those small infrequent amounts but bad for us in the amounts we vape for an extended period of time. We just don't know yet. We don't really know anything yet it could turn out that any one of the ingredients used in ejuice are harmful. There is no concrete evidence about any of it yet.
 
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