It's official. E cigs to be registered as a medicine in the UK.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bill Godshall

Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania
ECF Veteran
Apr 2, 2009
5,171
13,288
66
Last edited:

Petrodus

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 12, 2010
7,702
8,132
Midwest

e-pipeman

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 16, 2008
5,430
5,593
Brown Edge, England

DrSeuss

Full Member
Jan 2, 2013
22
12
England
Isn't this a bit depressing, I've read through the impact assessment. It seems as though they intend on setting the rules in such a way as to prevent anything other than a cig-a-like which provides the uniformity required to become legal.

It seems a nonsensical machination of the nanny state. All the while a blind eye is still turned to the elephant in the room, cigarettes aren't regulated as a medicine. Why would they be, they aren't going to cure anyone.
 

kristin

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 16, 2009
10,255
20,248
CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
But the fact of the matter is....TODAY....NOW....people gravitate toward smoking. Smaller #'s than previous generations sure, but they still do. So I don't know how to answer the question but the phenomenon exists now. Like gravity. We don't fully understand it, but it's there.

True, the numbers are lower than previous generations, but they haven't reduced much over the past 20 years. The ANTZ like to claim they are reducing smoking "rates" but those are changed by increased population, as well as longer lifespans. The actual NUMBER of smokers hasn't changed much since 1990, in spite of all of the warnings, commercials, billions of tax dollars spent on ANTZ programs and "research," smoking bans and regulations. While the smoking rate has dropped from around 25% to around 19%, the actual number of smokers has only dropped from 46 million to 45 million. People may still think that is progress, but back in 2000, the ANTZ said their draconian measures would hopefully have it at 12% by 2010, which would be only 28 million today.

I can already hear MHRA, DOH and NICE officials (and ASH UK) complaining in 2016 that their new e-cigarette prohibition has sharply increased black market sales of e-cigarette brands that aren't approved by MHRA as medicine.

I was thinking the same thing. How are they planning to stop internet sales?

I can go to my local supermarket and buy practically any medicine I want cheaply and just as easily as a loaf of bread (with the exception of prescription meds that is) there is a whole aisle just for medical products, in fact the supermarket already stocks its cigalikes in the medicine aisle, so I don't think it will be any harder to buy ecig products as it is to buy a pack of aspirins, it does mean that ejuice will have to conform to whatever standards are set which might not be a bad thing.

I think it is still a little to early for us to start running round in circles shouting "we're all doomed" just yet.

The question is, what would those vaping supplies include and how much more would they cost? It's kind of like having access to ibuprofen, acetaminophen and naproxin for 10 years and suddenly being told all you can get now is baby aspirin for 5 times what it used to cost. A lot more people would be living with aches and pains than before, just as this could cause a lot more people to just keep smoking or go back to smoking. Especially if all they can get is pre-filled cartridges, with 4 mg nicotine, on weak batteries in kits that cost more than a carton of cigarettes. :(
 
Last edited:

claudebo

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 14, 2012
93
140
Maine
I find it had to believe that the entire e-cigs population can be controlled. I am now in the process of getting my first rebuildable, all the components on it are really over the shelve and could never be controlled. That leave having a source of liquid nicotine, again this is a product that will be hard to control. Think of the alcohol prohibition in the US, it never really deterred any determined user, and if there is on thing that exists among e-cigs users is determination. Determination to stay off of anlogs, and to use e-cigs as they wish in order to do so.

That said I wouldn't mind myself knowing that the e-liquid I'm smoking had some sort of quality control.

Maybe the e-liquid industry should take a step forward (and initiative) themselves and pass a optional independent certification asserting the quality the liquid, and listing of ingredients they include and hygienic manufacturing facilities.

These safety controls exists for all foods, many cloths and other products and structures (from fire ......ant PJ's to frozen pizza to bridges) that surround our daily life. For that matter have saved many lives.

sry 4 all the random thoughts :facepalm: To recap it will be a very hard industry to
control, but some control might not be all that bad.
 

Oliver

ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe
Admin
Verified Member
Interesting Bill.

Except, read point 57 - "Our MA cost estimates assume that applicants would not have to conduct expensive animal and post-market-authorisation human clinical trials to satisfy MHRA that the risks to health from long term inhalation of ENDS vapour are acceptable. However, this may not be the case and MHRA assessors might ask for these additional trials. The one-off costs of conducting these additional trials would probably run into several hundreds of thousands of pounds."
 

rothenbj

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2009
8,248
7,647
Green Lane, Pa
Anyone who believes ecigs would reamin in the free market without any regulations or licensing are living in a delusional fantasy.

Ecig manufacturers, suppliers and retailers need to position themselves to obtain licensing for these products in the future to maintain consumer sales.

You obviously are too young to understand how the game is played. Take that mod ourt of you hand and put a weak battery cigalike in its place and a weak nicquid solution that you'll pay the price of a half carton or more for. Look at the history of "smoker control".

'69 PanAm becomes the first airline to separate smokers from non-smoers
'71 Cig manufactureres agree to put warnings on packs, later to become law
'73 All airlines required to have smoking sections
'73 Arizona passes public smoking ban
'80 Smokers are sent to the "back of the bus" on TWA and PanAm
'88 First inflight smoking ban by Northwestern
'89 Domestic airline smoking ban initiated
'94 Fed law banning smoking in buildings where children 's services are provided
By '00 Most states have banned smoking in punlic and private buildings
Today working on outdoor bans and worker bans

It's called creeping regulation and e cigs are at the beginning.
 

Bill Godshall

Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania
ECF Veteran
Apr 2, 2009
5,171
13,288
66
Electronic Cigarettes to Be Treated as Medicines by U.K. - Businessweek

Jeremy Mean lies by claiming
“It’s not about banning products that some people find useful; it’s about making sure that smokers have an effective alternative that they can rely on to meet their needs.”


The U.K. decision will benefit the large tobacco companies in the short term by stemming the flow of electronic cigarettes, which compete with traditional tobacco products, said Chris Wickham, a tobacco industry analyst at Oriel Securities in London.

“In the longer run, it makes it more difficult for those wishing to get into that market themselves, hoping for a landgrab via their traditional distribution platforms,” Wickham said.
 

Bill Godshall

Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania
ECF Veteran
Apr 2, 2009
5,171
13,288
66
E-cigarette classification as medicines plan angers industry
E-cigarette classification as medicines plan angers industry | Business | The Guardian


Ecita said: "Nicotine containing products can only be considered a medicine when they claim to help users quit smoking. Electronic cigarettes do not do this: they simply allow users to satisfy their desire for recreational nicotine – a perfectly legal drug – without the thousands of harmful chemicals produced by burning tobacco.Courts around Europe have already ruled that electronic cigarettes marketed without such claims cannot be reclassified as medicines, because this would lead to the absurd situation of tobacco cigarettes becoming medicines.

Katherine Devlin, Ecita's president, said: "What the MHRA proposes – forcing all e-cigarette users to use licensed products that cannot replicate the smoking experience in the same way – is bad news for public health. Yet the MHRA proposes to do exactly that, while toxic tobacco products which cause far more harm are left on the market."

Damien Scott, commercial manager of manufacturers SKYCIG, said his company would wait to see how the law played out in ther EU. "We don't think this is necessary. We self-regulate, and restriction on products long-term will make them ineffective.
 

kristin

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 16, 2009
10,255
20,248
CASAA - Wisconsin
casaa.org
kristin - with the greatest of respect, the quotation which preceded that text was taken completely out of context. I was responding to another post in a which a member stated the following:



I completely agree with what you are saying, and the rest of my post clearly echoes that sentiment.

I don't think it was your intention to misrepresent what I said, but I just wanted to make my position clear.

JJ

Sorry, I used it as a jumping off point. I should have quoted the post you were responding to, which is why I only used that small part of your comment that echoed what some people were saying - that this isn't that big a deal because you can still get them OTC. I didn't mean to imply that you thought that part of the comment was true. I replaced the quote. My aspirin analogy makes more sense that way anyhow. ;)
 
Last edited:

jSquared

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 23, 2013
577
420
London, UK
Sorry, I used it as a jumping off point. I should have quoted the post you were responding to, which is why I only used that small part of your comment that echoed what some people were saying - that this isn't that big a deal because you can still get them OTC. I didn't mean to imply that you thought that part of the comment was true.

No problem, kristin - I suspected that was the case!

JJ
 

Cool_Breeze

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 10, 2011
4,115
4,289
Kentucky
Interesting Bill.

Except, read point 57 - "Our MA cost estimates assume that applicants would not have to conduct expensive animal and post-market-authorisation human clinical trials to satisfy MHRA that the risks to health from long term inhalation of ENDS vapour are acceptable. However, this may not be the case and MHRA assessors might ask for these additional trials. The one-off costs of conducting these additional trials would probably run into several hundreds of thousands of pounds."

We are all volunteer test animals!
 

Whosback

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 23, 2013
653
2,613
42
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
How sad for our brothers and sisters over the pond. You gotta wonder who will be "Licensed" and who will not? What they decided is an okay e-cig for over the counter. It's just them chasing the money is all it is. I hope by 2016 there will be enough strength to fight this. The choice is made, but there is still time for change. At least I hope there is.
 

tommy2bad

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 1, 2011
461
506
Kilkenny
OK lets get this straight, from 2016 only medicinal licensed ecigs will be allowed on the market. Seems fair at least it's a level playing field.
No wait, they stated that no current product meets the standard. So then all the ecigs we are now using will be removed 21 Jan 2016.
They could in the meantime apply for a license though and if they are sufficiently safe, and efficacious could gain a license.
Bearing in mind that this is a medicine license, what dose efficacious mean? Well they cite varying nicotine levels and variation between devices. Presumably then their version of efficacious means less varity in devices as consistency in delivery of nicotine dose is part of their standards."The products won’t be assessed for how effective they are in helping people quit," Mean said. So no testing for effectiveness as a quit aid
3 years time and the market will have grown enough for the few licensed products to clean up on their not inconsiderable investment. No wonder Nicolites, the only license applicant so far released thisNicolites welcomes decision to classify e-cigarettes as medicine and expects no change in marketing as a result | The Drum

Make no mistake this is a ban and a snatch and grab by big tobacco on the market as it now exists. End result single unit disposable ecigs in menthol and orignal flavors only. They will be matt white, blue or grey and come in a big box with a sheet of small print included, retailing at 15 to 20 pounds initially, dropping to 20 cigarettes equivalent pricing later after they have established their good intentions not to market to children and non smokers.
Oh and expect public use bans and sin taxes, remember that these are not encouraging you to quit as a good citizen should.

So fumming mad at both the incompetence and hypocrisy of the MHRA that I might need a good 45mg vape
 

RosaJ

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2012
2,014
3,034
The Woodlands, TX, USA
Just realized that with that scenario, BT is going to have a medical license to manufacture ecigs. Hm, don't know if BT wants to play that game of being the maker of tobacco cigarettes, cigars, etc., and also be in the pharmaceutical arena at the same time. I think a judge may have a few things to say about that. Not sure what, but certainly food for thought from a judiciary and ethical standpoint.
 

Bill Godshall

Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania
ECF Veteran
Apr 2, 2009
5,171
13,288
66
This response by Nicolites demonstrates that the company wants MHRA to help it corner the e-cig market by eliminating all of the smaller competitors.

Don't know how much money the company has budgeted for gaining MHRA approval as medicine, but I strongly suspect the final cost of getting just one of its brands approved will be ten, twenty or more times greater than Nicolites estimates.

Here in the US, the FDA hasn't approved even one of the several thousands of Substantial Equivalent applications that have been submitted by tobacco companies, as the agency keeps claiming that NONE of the SE applicants have provided sufficient information (for the agency to approve their applications), while the agency continues to demand new and different information from SE applicants.

In sum, the FDA keeps demanding new, different and more information from SE applicants, which has sharply increased the costs of submitting an application.

MHRA is likely to do the same, at the same time the agency will continue to deceitfully claim that it wants to license e-cigarette products as medicines.

These MHRA licenses are nothing more than an extortion racket for MHRA.
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 24, 2009
8,354
12,402
ECF Towers
Tommy,

The MHRA press release is probably not actually about regulating e-cigarettes, it's more about putting pressure on the EU. I'd bet that if the TPD had got a smooth ride through committee at the EU, the MHRA's PR would have looked very different - perhaps something like this:

"The MHRA welcomes the decision by the European Union to regulate e-cigarettes both as a medicine for the refills and as a tobacco product for the hardware and ancillaries. This will ensure that consumers are fully protected and have access to safe and effective smoking cessation products."

Instead, the TPD is being kicked from pillar to post by people who either don't like that much safer alternatives to smoking are being blocked (perhaps when they don't have any appreciation of the reasons behind it), or don't like the pharmaceutical industry being able to protect its income, remove competitors, and write the death certificates for millions of people (if they do in fact realise what this is all about). As a result, the MHRA are trying to inject a little backbone into the EU committees, who aren't earning their benefits as they've allowed the plebs to affect decision-making - the biggest possible sin in EU politics.

I don't think the MHRA have any intention to regulate e-cigarettes as a pharmaceutical since they will get their .... kicked hard in court if they try. Instead, they are banking on the EU doing it for them; but they are aware that they need to help the process along a bit. Now if the EU *do* succeed, then the MHRA can also regulate in addition, and stand a much better chance of their regs surviving; because first the EU decision would need to be reversed at the ECJ in Strasbourg, and that is a much harder task than winning at national level in an EU country. This appears to be relatively easy to do, as it has been done multiple times by the ecig trade, and without a failure.

Regarding a medical license for an ecig: the first applicant was Intellicig (now BAT), who put have been working on this for nearly three years. They will presumably be the first to receive an MA as they tick all the boxes: quality-minded management; pharma lab grade facilities; oversight by senior academics from all round Europe from the get-go; use of glycerine as the excipient and therefore backed by Dow Chemical and others who have multiple pharmaceutical licenses for its use as the principal excipient in inhalable medicines and who are moving clients away from PG toward glycerine for all inhalable therapies; pharma part ownership of the company; majority ownership by a giant tobacco company who have practically unlimited funds; etc.

The terms 'safe and effective' are always of interest when discussing pharmaceuticals and never more so than in the smoking therapy area (see the entry on this page: E-Cigarette Terminology ). The use of the term 'effective' when applied to medical *licensing* (in the UK) is of especial interest; and so is its application to ecig refills and their 'effectiveness'.

Firstly, I had an at-length discussion with June Raine and Jeremy Mean of the MHRA about the meaning of the term when applied to therapies related to smoking and nicotine. I can assure you that they repeated again and again that a nicotine therapy of any kind does not need to work, at least in the manner that you and I would expect the word to mean. Its effectiveness for the purpose it is licensed and sold for is immaterial, according to their repeated statements. It must be demonstrated to supply the specified drug in a form that is demonstrated to be bioavailable - but it doesn't actually need to work. It will neither be required to show this at the licensing stage and neither will they test its effectiveness at a later date, on patients or subjects, by any methodology, to determine that the therapy is effective for the purpose for which it is sold. They repeatedly stated that they will not ask for proof of its effectiveness at the licensing stage nor will they themselves check its effectiveness at a later date. Let us be absolutely clear about this: this was stated repeatedly in a meeting where many other people were present, and I have a transcript. What they *do* require is proof that the drug is delivered.

Now we look at the question of the demonstrated delivery of the drug - which *will* need to be proven. Intellicig, like several others (notably Bullen at al, Vansickel et al [which we refer to as 'Eissenberg 1'], and others), found that that a mini ecig with an average refill will deliver zero or very little measurable nicotine to the user, who in tests is required to be ecig-naive (this means a first-time user). The buyer of a medicine is not expected to be an expert in its use. Zero or little nicotine was found in the bloodstream in all these tests (not just some of them); extremely low amounts such as 1.3ng/ml were measured. This is just above the background noise and in fact is so low that dietary sources could be responsible (such levels were certainly measured in the past when people's diet was better and they ate more vegetables, many of which contain nicotine and which may be beneficial as the nicotine is co-located with nicotinic acid - vitamin B3).

As a direct result of these tests, Intellicig introduced a 45mg refill strength (4.5%), because it is the minimum strength that actually works for many buyers of a mini, who can be expected to be beginners (or they probably would not buy a mini). If in fact they are experienced, then they will very soon find (within about 90 seconds) that their refill is too strong, and they can subsequently reduce the delivery efficiency by multiple means.

So to actually 'work', an ecig will need to deliver a measured blood plasma nicotine level above 8ng/ml; and probably between 8ng/ml and 15ng/ml. A delivery of 20ng/ml might be seen as anomalous, therefore excessive, in this situation. For all practical purposes the Intellicig 45mg refill is a very good choice for mini ecig users; in fact, it may even be necessary in order to receive an MA.

(From a personal perspective I would also supply a refill of half that strength and/or some way to dilute the refill, for those who are exceptionally sensitive to nicotine - we have demonstrated here on ECF that there is a factor 10 difference in tolerance to nicotine between individuals. Some are rather sensitive to it, while others seem as if they can almost drink it.)

The MHRA PR also has an additional benefit, for them, as it is probably also designed to force ecig vendors to apply for an MA. This is hugely more expensive and time-costly than is appreciated. I would budget 4 years and £2m for it; and would not be shocked to find it went over-budget. On the other hand, the MHRA strongly hinted (but refused to put in writing) that some costs could be shared. For example, a competitor's previous documentation might be used by the next applicant; applicants might share licensing costs and badge-engineer the product for the marketplace (i.e. make and sell the same product under different names). They would not confirm this offer in writing. I regard their approach as unreliable from a commercial point of view.

Finally, you mention ".....the incompetence and hypocrisy of the MHRA". I think this is wrong. They are as efficient as it is possible to be as the pharmaceutical industry's government partner and protector. Let's leave it at that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread