Mixing By Weight: Basics 101

[MsLoud]

I purchased this exact set of weights to calibrate and check my scale. I really like them. I checked all the different weights and some combination of the weights, and my scale was right on the money. Might not really be necessary, but it gave me peace of mind that my scale was accurate.

I purchased that scale August 2016 (from that seller too!) and am still using it today. It does have one small idiosyncrasy that you should be aware of. It does have an auto-zero function that people find anywhere from "no big deal" to "deal breaker" and everywhere in between. I happen to be of the "no big deal" opinion.

Auto-zero(ing) simply refers to the scale's hardware trying to compensate for minor (+/- 0.01g fluctuations) when the scale is at zero. What this means for us, as DIYers, is when adding single drops at the beginning of a pour (when the scale has been tared to zero), the scale may not register those individual drops (because it is wanting to remain at zero). This isn't a problem when you pour quickly, but if you are doing small batches, that are only using a few drops in total, it can be problematic.

The easy work-around is to place a temporary weight on the scale after taring. This can be anything that will provide 0.10g or more; so a coin, pen cap, even another concentrate bottle. Anything that will get it beyond the point it tries to go back to zero. Then you can begin your pour/drip, and once you get past the first few hundredths of a gram, you can remove the temporary weight, and continue to pour without fear of it returning to zero. Or, if you take note of what the precise weight of the temporary weight is, you can leave it and just mentally deduct it from the total poured.

My own solution was to use a medium small paper clamp (like this):
View attachment 654051
to which I added a folded post-it sheet, and left partially protruding, and then trimmed the paper so it weighed exactly 10 grams. That just made any math I have to do in my head is super simple. Plus, when I stand it on one end, the wire loops make perfect handles to lift it off (unlike flat coins that are always refusing to cooperate; and always having odd decimal points). I make a lot of small 10, 5, and even 3mL test batches so it is not at all uncommon for me to use a single ingredient at 0.10g or less. With my 10g cheater weight, I just leave it in place, and perform my pour. Easy!

Here is a separate thread that discusses this and is specific to the SF-400D.
(Note: If you read my posts in that thread; you will see that I was initially disappointed with the scale. Now that I have a good, simple, repeatable remedy, and have spent some time using it, I am much happier with it.)

As for calibrating:
The SF400D only requires (1) 500 gram weight. (Something like one of these: US STOCK 0.5kg 500g Calibration Weight + 5Gram Tester for Digital Scales CQOT602 | eBay) Note that these are NOT certification grade so there will be variances (tolerances) in these (how much will depend on the M grade of the weight).

Or you can go old school:
1 nickel weighs 5 grams(+/-); so 100 nickels will weigh 500 grams(+/-) (My problem with this is I have never found ONE nickel that weighed exactly 5.000 grams. They usually weigh anywhere from 4.7 to 5.4 grams. Add 100 potential variables together and who knows what you really have!)

1mL of water weighs 1mg (1 Liter=1000.028 grams). Of course this is laboratory pure water we are talking about. Tap water has various minerals, chemicals, and ???, and that of course will affect the true weight. How much? I have NO clue. Oh; and don't forget to deduct the weight of the vessel containing the water.

I am sure there are hundreds of others but I think you can see the flaw. Combine this with whatever tolerance the scale was made with and I just don't see the purpose. My scale is 9 months old and has yet to be calibrated ONCE. I do have a 50 gram calibration weight that came with a small 50 gram powder scale, and every time I have checked (every couple of months or so), it has weighed exactly the same (50.02g). Until it starts drifting significantly; I'm not going to worry about it.

I do try to take care of my scale. I keep it in a box, make sure NOTHING ever gets set on top of it unless I am weighing it, NEVER lift it by the weighing platform, never press down on it or place anything that might exceed its 500 gram capacity, and keep it clean. It hasn't let me down yet. In fact; I am still using the battery they sent with it! The AC option is nice, and works just fine, though the cord is a little short (only about 18 inches). So, make sure you have an outlet near by, or an extension cord on hand.

If I ever do feel the need to calibrate it I will seek out someone local, who has access to a certified scale, and test weights, and see if they will allow me to bring it in and calibrate it. Someone, such as a pharmacist, lab (medical, industrial) tech, or jewelry shop/broker.

Sorry to be so long-winded; I just wanted to share the things I wish I knew when I was scale shopping. I am not trying to talk you out of this scale by any means. I have grown rather fond of mine. I only wished I had a more complete understanding of its behavior so I had more realistic expectations.

I hope this helped.

Thank you! I ordered both

 

[ShowerHead]

The way of the weigh is the only way! For me. (gratuitous IMO disclaimer to prevent "But I don't do it that way' replies)

I love mixing by weight. Scales are great for most DIY juice applications.

Syringes have their place just like scales.

For me, both methods are resources I can use depending on which meets my immediate goal. Neither is best, but one or the other will meet the need for a particular application.

I recently mixed a small 15ML for someone directly in the bottle and really can't see any reason I would have used a scale. One Syringe and a cup of water to rinse it.

You guys missed the gratuitous disclaimer.

 

[Capt.shay]

I'm looking at this scale to buy - 500g x 0.01g High Precision Digital Scale SF-400D2 Counting wit USB Wall Adapter | eBay

Does it come with the weights to calibrate or do I need to buy this set too? 8 pcs calibration weight set 10g 20g 50g 100g 200g 500g -- 1000g total weight | eBay

Is there another way I can calibrate without purchasing the extra weights?
Thanks!

Welcome to the way of the weigh! I'm certain you will find mixing by weight easier, more consistent and quicker than mixing by volume. Absolutely no gratuitous disclaimer here because, well, science. The advice given on the scale was spot on so I wont elaborate further. Either of the scales mentioned in my OP will provide good service.

To all those who have recently laid accolades upon this thread, I thank you. Much of what is mentioned here was learned here, I just condensed it and tried to present it in an easily digestible manner.

Happy mixing

 

[MsLoud]

Thank you Capt! I've been a country-cook mixer (dash of this/pinch of that) most of DIY days but hubs is getting more interested in DIY and he is a super-taster so most of my creations do not suit him. I may make a mix and try it and decide it needs a few more drops of this or that and add them without concern to the actual recipe or even log my changes. I know I know....it's how I roll.

Anyways, the scale gives him piece of mind and ability to recreate mixes easily with as little fuss as possible. Using weight gives another option and depth to what is the most fun aspect of vaping to us now.

Thank you for this thread and all who have contributed along the way

 

[ghola1was]

I've been a country-cook mixer (dash of this/pinch of that) most of DIY days…

One might search ECF for your (MsLoud's) Peach recipe if one were interested. So very, very tasty.



TPA/TFA Recipes only!

 

[MsLoud]

Got the scale and weights - I LOVE it! I never did 10ml mixes cause well...I hate those little bottles. I was able to take 10 10ml bottles and make the base (PG/VG NIC) for hubs and just leave bit of room for him to add a few drops of whatever flavors he wants to try (single flavors - I never minded about the little things so I don't "do" single mixes). This application was PERFECT and so fast using the scale!

Thanks again!

 

[Alter]

Got the scale and weights - I LOVE it! I never did 10ml mixes cause well...I hate those little bottles. I was able to take 10 10ml bottles and make the base (PG/VG NIC) for hubs and just leave bit of room for him to add a few drops of whatever flavors he wants to try (single flavors - I never minded about the little things so I don't "do" single mixes). This application was PERFECT and so fast using the scale!

Thanks again!

Great your enjoying the convenience of the scale. You should change the defaults of the base weights on the calc your using if you use one. With 10ml small mixes the pg/vg ratio difference isn't significant but if you start getting into making larger mixes the ratio will change enough that you could notice.

 

[IDJoel]

With 10ml small mixes the pg/vg ratio difference isn't significant but if you start getting into making larger mixes the ratio will change (emphasis IDJoel's) enough that you could notice.

I respectfully disagree. A ratio is a ratio; regardless of whether I am making 10 milliliters or 10 liters. As long as it is repeated at the same ratio, any error introduced into a 10mL batch, will have the same affect in a 1L batch.

Yes; if my calculator defaults all weights to 1g/mL, I could be introducing roughly as much as a 20.64% error in my VG percentages. But; that error is going to be uniform regardless of batch size. (20.5% at 10mL is still 20.5% at 1L.) This will make a recipe that I used to make by volume, taste different when I mix it by weight, because my volume is missing more than 20% of the intended VG volume. And VG based nics will be short as well. PG, and PG based flavors and nics, won't be off as much (only about 3.66% short), but still off (which will alter the recipe from the original even further). So you are correct that there is an advantage to get the calculator closer to true weights; just not because ratios change as you make larger batch sizes.

As a side-note: After I switched to measuring by weight, I couldn't figure out why my ADV recipes were suddenly coming up short, until someone pointed out that I hadn't adjusted my weight settings on my calculator.

(Alternatively, a mixer could choose to adjust the individual ingredient percentages of each recipe, but that would take A LOT more time and effort. )

What will make a difference is when you miss hitting your target ratio. An extra drop (or one drop too few) will have more of an impact in a small batch; than that same 1 extra, or 1 short, drop in a large batch.

 

[zoiDman]

Great your enjoying the convenience of the scale. You should change the defaults of the base weights on the calc your using if you use one. With 10ml small mixes the pg/vg ratio difference isn't significant but if you start getting into making larger mixes the ratio will change enough that you could notice.

What is the Numerical Effect if a person Doesn't change the Defaults?

And if a Person likes the results they are getting, does it matter what Base Weight value they use?

 

[IDJoel]

What is the Numerical Effect if a person Doesn't change the Defaults?

The effect will be what I previously described; the intended volumes ("I want to make a 30mL batch.") will not be reached, and the nicotine level will be below target (anywhere from 3 to 20% depending on carrier base), because the majority of ingredients weigh more than 1.0 grams (Yes; there are some {such as those using ethyl alcohol} that actually weigh less). The specific numerical value will be dependent on the specific composition of the ingredients; and how much of each is used in the recipe.

And if a Person likes the results they are getting, does it matter what Base Weight value they use?

If the mixer is getting satisfactory results, then no, it doesn't matter one bit... to the mixer. And that result could be quite likely, when the mixer is creating a recipe from scratch, since we tend to do that by taste anyway. On the other hand, expecting to use another mixer's recipe, and have it taste the same as intended, without adjustment is, to me, unreasonable. (One could certainly make the argument that we often have to tweak someone else's recipe, to suit our own tastes anyhow, so "what's the big deal?," and they would have a valid point.)

It can create poor results for other mixers when sharing recipes, and they are using adjusted weight values, or mixing by some other method such as volume.

Bottom line: Does a mixer have to use corrected weights in order to get a satisfactory result? NO; absolutely not! But it can certainly help, to at least understand, what additional variables one is introducing into the mixing process. (It is also one of the reasons my feathers get ruffled when people try to argue that measuring by weight is more "accurate" when compared to other methods.)

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

The effect will be what I previously described; the intended volumes ("I want to make a 30mL batch.") will not be reached, and the nicotine level will be below target (anywhere from 3 to 20% depending on carrier base), because the majority of ingredients weigh more than 1.0 grams (Yes; there are some {such as those using ethyl alcohol} that actually weigh less). The specific numerical value will be dependent on the specific composition of the ingredients; and how much of each is used in the recipe.

If the mixer is getting satisfactory results, then no, it doesn't matter one bit... to the mixer. And that result could be quite likely, when the mixer is creating a recipe from scratch, since we tend to do that by taste anyway. On the other hand, expecting to use another mixer's recipe, and have it taste the same as intended, without adjustment is, to me, unreasonable. (One could certainly make the argument that we often have to tweak someone else's recipe, to suit our own tastes anyhow, so "what's the big deal?," and they would have a valid point.)

It can create poor results for other mixers when sharing recipes, and they are using adjusted weight values, or mixing by some other method such as volume.

Bottom line: Does a mixer have to use corrected weights in order to get a satisfactory result? NO; absolutely not! But it can certainly help, to at least understand, what additional variables one is introducing into the mixing process. (It is also one of the reasons my feathers get ruffled when people try to argue that measuring by weight is more "accurate" when compared to other methods.)

Thank you for the detailed explanation of why, when I used the weight method, none of my ejuice mixes tasted the same as when I mixed with volume. I knew(after the fact) that the weight was off (and actually posted it in this thread, I think) but not this specific and that vg was the main culprit. Thanks again for staying on the problem and figuring it out. I got flustered and just went back to volume mixing.

 

[Capt.shay]

Thank you for the detailed explanation of why, when I used the weight method, none of my ejuice mixes tasted the same as when I mixed with volume. I knew(after the fact) that the weight was off (and actually posted it in this thread, I think) but not this specific and that vg was the main culprit. Thanks again for staying on the problem and figuring it out. I got flustered and just went back to volume mixing.

Yes, if you have your VG set for 1g then that could throw things off quite a bit. As mentioned, it wouldn't give you the target amount, and make the mix PG heavy.

You should think about setting your calculator up properly and give it another go. I bet you will find that you can reproduce your juice identical to mixing by volume. Only easier

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Yes, if you have your VG set for 1g then that could throw things off quite a bit. As mentioned, it wouldn't give you the target amount, and make the mix PG heavy.

You should think about setting your calculator up properly and give it another go. I bet you will find that you can reproduce your juice identical to mixing by volume. Only easier

When I used a mixing calculator, I did enter the Specific Gravity for the pg and the vg, but not for the flavorings, just used the flavorings on a 1:1 basis. Maybe I used the wrong calculator? Since I am using a Chromebook, I can only use online calculators since some of the more popular calculators members use here require a PC to run or download.

 

[zoiDman]

The effect will be what I previously described; the intended volumes ("I want to make a 30mL batch.") will not be reached, and the nicotine level will be below target (anywhere from 3 to 20% depending on carrier base), because the majority of ingredients weigh more than 1.0 grams (Yes; there are some {such as those using ethyl alcohol} that actually weigh less). The specific numerical value will be dependent on the specific composition of the ingredients; and how much of each is used in the recipe.

...

Here's more what I was going for. What are the "Default Values" the calculator is using? And what Values does AlterUrEgo suggest should be used?

If a calculators "Default Value" for VG is 1g/ml, then Yes, that should be Changed.

But if the "Default Value" for VG is 1.3g/ml, is there going to be any Detectable change in taste if the user changes it to 1.261g/ml?

 

[Mactavish]

When I used a mixing calculator, I did enter the Specific Gravity for the pg and the vg, but not for the flavorings, just used the flavorings on a 1:1 basis. Maybe I used the wrong calculator? Since I am using a Chromebook, I can only use online calculators since some of the more popular calculators members use here require a PC to run or download.

I've mentioned the ELR site before, that's the only "calculator" I use. There is a little time involved when you first start using the site, as you enter your ingredients, but that's easy as too, since when you start typing the "name", the online database immediately starts giving you a list of brands that match. Now when you begin a new mix with the flavors you own, the gravity is correct. I store all my mixes there "unpublished", and can bring them back up at anytime, as I fine tune them, along with notes etc. For me, it stores everything for DIY in one place, couldn't be more handy, as well as accurate. Good luck!

 

[IDJoel]

As mentioned, it wouldn't give you the target amount, and make the mix PG heavy.

It not only results in a higher than intended PG (to VG ratio); but it also creates a recipe that is not adequately diluted. It would be similar to adding extra flavoring. The flavor ratios should not be affected, but the overall/total flavor ("flavor base" if you will) would not have as much dilutant, so would seem over-flavored by 10% (assuming a default weight of 1.0g for VG) in an intended 50PG/50VG recipe (more with higher VG percentages) .

When I used a mixing calculator, I did enter the Specific Gravity for the pg and the vg, but not for the flavorings, just used the flavorings on a 1:1 basis.

I must confess that I only adjust for PG, VG, and nic and leave my flavor concentrates defaulted to 1.0g.
I started out trying to enter individual weights (specific gravities; or "SG") for each flavor concentrate, but after being unable to find the SG for more than half my 200+ concentrates, I gave up. I was too lazy to measure them myself. And, after much reading on the subject, realized that many (most?) mixers using weight as their measuring method, use either a flavor concentrate "default" of 1.0g, or (if they are a little more industrious) 1.03g for PG-based concentrates, and 1.26g for VG-based concentrates.

Because I mostly use other's (preexisting) recipes, and I often have to give them small tweaks to suit my own liking anyhow, I don't stress over a +/-3% variance. Keep in mind; a 3% variance on a 5% concentrate addition is only a total of 0.15%. If we are talking about a 5mL addition; that is ONLY 0.0075mL difference! That is roughly the size of ONE THIRD of ONE DROP. I introduce more discrepancy into every one of my mixes every time I mix. I personally am not going to sweat the small stuff.

Perhaps Super Tasters can taste this small variances but I sure can't. But that is the fun part of DIY; we can strive for as much, or as little, precision as we desire. I personally am content with getting reasonably (for me) close, and keeping it repeatable. Everything else is gravy!

Happy mixing!

 

[MsLoud]

My PG/VG/NIC is a premade base I use in my mix... How do I now use this base as my pg/vg/nic in one and how do I set my calculator adjustments? I figure to use 1g/1ml for the flavoring (I never took into account a specific pg/vg target ratio when mixing by volume). I simply added in my flavorings to the premade base and let it ride.

 

[IDJoel]

But if the "Default Value" for VG is 1.3g/ml, is there going to be any Detectable change in taste if the user changes it to 1.261g/ml?

At this point; I think it boils down to more of a matter of personal preference. You are now (by rounding up to 1.3g from 1.26g) adding an extra 3.08% of VG volume, and depending on PG/VG ratio, will be over-diluting your total mix to some extent. Is it enough to notice? I have no clue.

Perhaps, if you are a Super Taster, it can make a difference. For me (and my sorry, abused, taste buds), the very same bottle of e-liquid tastes different from day-to-day, even hour-to-hour. So I highly doubt it would make any significant difference to me. But I can NOT speak for anyone else.

As I mentioned to @Sugar_and_Spice; that is the beauty of DIY, we can adapt to what works best for our own needs.

I do believe (for me) that more information makes me better informed, and I can make better choices regarding what I do, and don't, choose to apply. It doesn't make me more "right," or my way "better," it is ONLY what works for me.

The mixer who likes to mix by "adding a little of this and a little of that," and makes juices they enjoy vaping, is every bit as "right" as I am with my very different methods. It might make it more difficult to share with others, when you don't have a common "language" (e.g. milliliters, grams, or percentages; or when my "gram" is actually 1.26 grams); but I would never tell that person they are doing it "wrong."

 

[IDJoel]

My PG/VG/NIC is a premade base I use in my mix... How do I now use this base as my pg/vg/nic in one and how do I set my calculator adjustments?

I think that is going to depend on the calculator you are using. I happen to use @HotRod19579's Juice Calculator. With that one, you can create "bases" using individual ingredients like PG, VG, nic, and/or flavor concentrates, and in turn use that base as an ingredient (which would then have a correct weight value). I am not sure what other calculators offer. I am guessing that this would be difficult to do with on-line options (but that is ONLY a guess). Depending on what your PG/VG ratio is; it CAN make a noticeable difference in taste.

I figure to use 1g/1ml for the flavoring (I never took into account a specific pg/vg target ratio when mixing by volume). I simply added in my flavorings to the premade base and let it ride.

the "1gram=1mL" default for flavor concentrates is not uncommon; I use it myself. If you have super-sensitive taste buds, it might make a difference, but I doubt the average vaper would notice. And, as for adding "in my flavorings to the premade base and let it ride," if you are satisfied with the results; don't change!

 

[puffon]

My PG/VG/NIC is a premade base I use in my mix... How do I now use this base as my pg/vg/nic in one and how do I set my calculator adjustments? I figure to use 1g/1ml for the flavoring (I never took into account a specific pg/vg target ratio when mixing by volume). I simply added in my flavorings to the premade base and let it ride.

If you use the ELR calc, you will see the total weight of your base in light grey print, under the base info
31.87 grams in this example