Mixing By Weight: Basics 101

[Capt.shay]

Thank you for the clarification on the rest of the post. Taste is so subjective and why you may favor Cap flavors over another's same flavor.(just an example) Variations are why there are so many different types.
While it can be fun to find the ones you like more than others, it can and does get expensive. I have tried so many different vanilla's and still can't find the 'one'. I am looking for a vanilla that is light, smooth and not too sweet. Most of the ones I have found are very heavy and tend to take over the recipe. But that is just me.....

Flavor West French Vanilla at 12% has been my ADV for years now.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Flavor West French Vanilla at 12% has been my ADV for years now.

Thanks. Will add that to my list of flavors to get.....

 

[oplholik]

I need to get all my flavorings out, fire up the scale and mix up a new juice for a new mod, and tank coming today. Do some speed steeping and go with it. I'll do 10ml's to start with, and make adjustments along the way.

 

[jambi]

Got my new order of flavorings and entering into Hotrod's calculator and have a couple questions since branching out into other manufacturers.

Bottle sizes for the flavorings range from 9ml to 4oz. Am I correct that strength of flavorings are at least reasonably consistent between brands regardless of size of bottle?

Entering the flavorings/ingredients into the calculator, there is a section to enter the grams per ml for each flavor which defaults to 1g per ml. This is then used in the calculation of how many grams of flavoring to add for each recipe making it seem to be rather important in the calculation. Is it really that important, does anybody really adjust this for each flavor, and where would one get the information to make an adjustment? If not changing it for each flavor, is the 1mg per ml the reasonable entry?

Or am I just making this harder then necessary? Just leave the default settings as they are, add the flavorings to inventory, then start each test batch at say 5% flavorings and adjust from there until it tastes good?

Good questions.

Regarding flavor strengths, I use general rules of thumb but don't expect any consistency in strengths among brands, or even within a single brand.
My single flavor GRT's...
HS, INW, FA, OSDIY, EURO: 5%
TFA, CAP, LA, LB: 10%
FW: 15-18%
SC, FLV: 3%

Again, these are just points of departure. I would never use 10% TFA Absinthe or Cinnamon Red Hot, or 18% of FW Menthol Extreme, unless I wanted to blow my head off.

The real trick is subbing between brands. I have a lot of recipes that call for various TFA fruits. I often prefer the taste of FA's excellent fruits. General rule of thumb when subbing FA for TFA is to halve the %age. 8% TFA Strawberry Ripe = 4% FA Strawberry. Again, it's touch and go. Experimentation is the only way to truly know if a sub like that will work in a given recipe.

Regarding Specific Gravities, I use the 1ml = 1 gram rule for all flavors, though there are partial lists available if you want to enter true specific gravities into the Juice Calculator. Just don't expect to find SGs for every flavor you own. I used to spend a lot of time chasing down and entering SGs, till I realized that a) recipies I was following used the 1=1 rule b) I was spending more time screwing around with SGs than mixing. Glad I changed my ways back when I only had 50 flavors to convert back to the default 1=1! You don't want to arrive at the realization that 1=1 is better when you've got 250 flavors in the calc. Took long enough to change 50.

 

[OlderNDirt]

Thanks, @jambi !

All my mixes so far are single flavor (think I read that somewhere here ), started with some TFA and mixed at the lowest percent (another recommendation? ), some as low as 2%. All seemed rather flavorless, so decided to just start all at 5%. Picked up some CAP and mixed up 4 different flavors. Only tried the fruit one so far (letting the bakery ones steep....yet another suggestion ) and it also fell short. Based on your list, 5% would be the really low end. Appreciate the info and will certainly refer to it in the future!

 

[IDJoel]

Thank you for the clarification on the rest of the post. Taste is so subjective and why you may favor Cap flavors over another's same flavor.(just an example) Variations are why there are so many different types.

Not clarification; you said it perfectly with your post. I'm just butting in with my $0.005 worth.

While it can be fun to find the ones you like more than others, it can and does get expensive. I have tried so many different vanilla's and still can't find the 'one'.

Don't I know it! 220 flavors and counting. I couldn't begin to tell you how many are overlapping flavors.
But flavors are like meatloaf; everybody has a recipe, and no two taste the same.

I am looking for a vanilla that is light, smooth and not too sweet. Most of the ones I have found are very heavy and tend to take over the recipe. But that is just me.....

On a more serious note; have your tried working with vanillin yet? I agree with TFA's description that it is "not complete" (though I disagree with the "intensely sweet" part of it) but I find the parts that are missing are the sweet and heavy components. I use it anywhere from 0.25% to no more than 3% where I want the "vanilla" note without the cream/custard/shake/sweet influences of all the other vanillas I have.

 

[IDJoel]

Thanks, @jambi !

All my mixes so far are single flavor (think I read that somewhere here ), started with some TFA and mixed at the lowest percent (another recommendation? ), some as low as 2%. All seemed rather flavorless, so decided to just start all at 5%. Picked up some CAP and mixed up 4 different flavors. Only tried the fruit one so far (letting the bakery ones steep....yet another suggestion ) and it also fell short. Based on your list, 5% would be the really low end. Appreciate the info and will certainly refer to it in the future!

Hi @OlderNDirt ,
I don't recall from reading your previous posts (here, and on other threads) if you share any of my OCD tendencies, but if you do, here is a link to a method that helps me home in on my personal preference for new flavors quickly: Low percentage Single Flavor Testing Chart

I developed this from a chart @Bill's Magic Vapor originally shared in his DropBox collection here. Bill is a High Flavor style of mixer, and I found his original method increased jumped in too large a increments for me, so I reworked it to advance in roughly 1% increments.

I don't want to derail Capt. Shay's thread any further so I will also share the link to the thread that discussed this a little more in depth here. Read starting with the linked post through the next ten posts to get a pretty good idea of how these charts work.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Not clarification; you said it perfectly with your post. I'm just butting in with my $0.005 worth.

Don't I know it! 220 flavors and counting. I couldn't begin to tell you how many are overlapping flavors.
But flavors are like meatloaf; everybody has a recipe, and no two taste the same.

On a more serious note; have your tried working with vanillin yet? I agree with TFA's description that it is "not complete" (though I disagree with the "intensely sweet" part of it) but I find the parts that are missing are the sweet and heavy components. I use it anywhere from 0.25% to no more than 3% where I want the "vanilla" note without the cream/custard/shake/sweet influences of all the other vanillas I have.

Yes I have. For me, it leaves an after taste I am not fond of.

 

[dobroeutro]

I'm just curious if most of you have 30ml or small bottles of flavorings?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I keep a supply of 15/20ml dropper bottles on hand. Whenever I get a flavoring that doesn't have a dropper top or a larger bottle, I just transfer some or all into a dropper bottle & label. Works great...

Good questions.

Regarding flavor strengths, I use general rules of thumb but don't expect any consistency in strengths among brands, or even within a single brand.
My single flavor GRT's...
HS, INW, FA, OSDIY, EURO: 5%
TFA, CAP, LA, LB: 10%
FW: 15-18%
SC, FLV: 3%

Again, these are just points of departure. I would never use 10% TFA Absinthe or Cinnamon Red Hot, or 18% of FW Menthol Extreme, unless I wanted to blow my head off.

The real trick is subbing between brands. I have a lot of recipes that call for various TFA fruits. I often prefer the taste of FA's excellent fruits. General rule of thumb when subbing FA for TFA is to halve the %age. 8% TFA Strawberry Ripe = 4% FA Strawberry. Again, it's touch and go. Experimentation is the only way to truly know if a sub like that will work in a given recipe.

I use mostly CAP flavors but have some FA, LA & FW as well. IMHO, the above starting %'s are spot on for the flavors I have. YMMV. I usually make a 5ml tester for each new flavor to get a feel for it before using in mixes...

 

[Capt.shay]

So, I thought I would address an issue that has been brought up lately.

If you slowly add one drop at a time to the scale, it may not register the drops fast enough before the auto zero feature kicks in and it will not read the drops. To counter this, when you are adding real small amounts, you can zero then place a nickle on the scale. Add your drops and subtract the 5g for the nickle. This will allow you to measure very small amounts.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Thanks, @jambi !

All my mixes so far are single flavor (think I read that somewhere here ), started with some TFA and mixed at the lowest percent (another recommendation? ), some as low as 2%. All seemed rather flavorless, so decided to just start all at 5%. Picked up some CAP and mixed up 4 different flavors. Only tried the fruit one so far (letting the bakery ones steep....yet another suggestion ) and it also fell short. Based on your list, 5% would be the really low end. Appreciate the info and will certainly refer to it in the future!

So have you upped the pct in the fruit mix yet? Let us know how you are proceeding. Do you think you need lots of flavors to be able to taste them? Some people do because of the years of smoking has left their sense of taste lacking. Just a thought here about flavor pcts: It is also possible to have too much flavor and will result in tasting like nothing. I know it sounds counter intuitive but its true. If you think that happens in anything you are mixing, what I do then, is take a small amount out of the mix and put in another bottle and add just pg/vg to match the amount you took out. I usually use a 5 ml bottle and put 2.5ml of the mix in and 2.5ml of pg or vg in to fill the bottle. Then taste. More times than not, you can then taste the flavor.
YMMV

 

[OlderNDirt]

So have you upped the pct in the fruit mix yet? Let us know how you are proceeding. Do you think you need lots of flavors to be able to taste them? Some people do because of the years of smoking has left their sense of taste lacking. Just a thought here about flavor pcts: It is also possible to have too much flavor and will result in tasting like nothing. I know it sounds counter intuitive but its true. If you think that happens in anything you are mixing, what I do then, is take a small amount out of the mix and put in another bottle and add just pg/vg to match the amount you took out. I usually use a 5 ml bottle and put 2.5ml of the mix in and 2.5ml of pg or vg in to fill the bottle. Then taste. More times than not, you can then taste the flavor.
YMMV

Hey! How ya doin, Sugar?

Let's just say, at my age, I tend to move slowly in my endeavors, whatever they may be. Guess you could say I like to stop and smell the roses. Having stocked up fairly well in my favorite store bought juice, I have time to "play" with my mixes and try giving them steep time to see if/how they may change. If all goes as planned, as I run out of my "favorites", I will have some that can/will be replaced by a successful mix.

So far, I can say I haven't mixed up anything I couldn't vape. I started mixing everything at 2% flavoring and all came out short on the flavor. So jumped it up to starting at 5% which is showing much better results. My "Fruit Rings" were short of flavor, so added a couple drops to the 30ml mix and is much better. Although I will increase the percent on my next batch, I am considering it good for a single flavor mix as well as some Vanilla Custard, Chocolate Fudge Brownie (although a bit strong at 5%), and Peanut Butter. I had mixed up at 2% some Kettle Korn (meh) and Caramel (fairly good) and then did a rather rough test combining them on a dripper that seemed promising, so will mix those together and different ratios and see if something good comes out of that.

One of the best things to come out of DIY was mixing up some unflavored and combining that with some store boughts to smooth out and cut back on stronger flavors. I have a couple already that I cut back from the start.

So, bottom line, I am plugging along slowly. I have a few flavors I haven't even tried yet. But if a mix doesn't turn out as well as I would like, I'll either use it up or play with it. As I mentioned in the thread on the "scale problem", at the cost of a 30ml mix, I have no problem mixing my test batches at that. Well, maybe my problem with that is how long it takes to use up a batch so I can move on .

And if all that is not enough, I took advantage of a special and picked up some "ultra premium" nic, so now I can throw that into my "trial and error" rotation. But going to try it first in an unflavored and if it is significantly better then the regular nic, may just keep that for all unflavored juice I've come to enjoy!

And thanks for asking! (although that may be the last time after that long-winded response)

 

[Fozzy71]

....

One of the best things to come out of DIY was mixing up some unflavored and combining that with some store boughts to smooth out and cut back on stronger flavors. I have a couple already that I cut back from the start.
...

I have done this myself a couple of times. I also use my big batches of unflavored as a nic base to save time when making small tester bottles. I just total up what the nic + vg + pg should weigh for the batch I am making and weigh that out in the tester bottle, add flavors by weight then mix it up real good with a little badger paint mixer which fits perfectly in the 30ml amber bottles.

I even started mixing some 0mg recipes for night time vape and am already seeing some improvement in my average weekly sleep times according to my fitbit.

I have been busy testing new recipes (by weight) this week. Front row is all stuff I have made the past 5 or 6 days, back row is stuff I made back in early Aug after my first flavoring order. Bigger bottles of store bought juice and other stuff I have made is in a cabinet below all these:

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I have done this myself a couple of times. I also use my big batches of unflavored as a nic base to save time when making small tester bottles. I just total up what the nic + vg + pg should weigh for the batch I am making and weigh that out in the tester bottle, add flavors by weight then mix it up real good with a little badger paint mixer which fits perfectly in the 30ml amber bottles.

I even started mixing some 0mg recipes for night time vape and am already seeing some improvement in my average weekly sleep times according to my fitbit.

I have been busy testing new recipes (by weight) this week. Front row is all stuff I have made the past 5 or 6 days, back row is stuff I made back in early Aug after my first flavoring order. Bigger bottles of store bought juice and other stuff I have made is in a cabinet below all these:

You are gonna catch up with me.
I find a mix I like then make a big batch and add to my rotation, and somehow it (my stash) just keeps growing. I already have enough ejuice made to last me a couple of years but am still finding recipes I want to try. I am going to have to stop mixing so I can vape away some of my older ejuice. I keep telling myself that, but......

 

[Fozzy71]

You are gonna catch up with me.
I find a mix I like then make a big batch and add to my rotation, and somehow it (my stash) just keeps growing. I already have enough ejuice made to last me a couple of years but am still finding recipes I want to try. I am going to have to stop mixing so I can vape away some of my older ejuice. I keep telling myself that, but......

haha, yeah me too. I really enjoy getting down into the lab and toying with new recipes, testing them, etc. I have a couple months worth of flavors easily and a number of those in the picture (French Toast, Vanilla Custard and Deadly Sin v2 clone for sure) I already want to do 100ml or bigger batches of. I am running low on 100ml bottles and am out of anything bigger so I either need to vape like a maniac to empty some of my big bottle stash, or bite the bullet and place a bottle order.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Hey! How ya doin, Sugar?

Let's just say, at my age, I tend to move slowly in my endeavors, whatever they may be. Guess you could say I like to stop and smell the roses. Having stocked up fairly well in my favorite store bought juice, I have time to "play" with my mixes and try giving them steep time to see if/how they may change. If all goes as planned, as I run out of my "favorites", I will have some that can/will be replaced by a successful mix.

So far, I can say I haven't mixed up anything I couldn't vape. I started mixing everything at 2% flavoring and all came out short on the flavor. So jumped it up to starting at 5% which is showing much better results. My "Fruit Rings" were short of flavor, so added a couple drops to the 30ml mix and is much better. Although I will increase the percent on my next batch, I am considering it good for a single flavor mix as well as some Vanilla Custard, Chocolate Fudge Brownie (although a bit strong at 5%), and Peanut Butter. I had mixed up at 2% some Kettle Korn (meh) and Caramel (fairly good) and then did a rather rough test combining them on a dripper that seemed promising, so will mix those together and different ratios and see if something good comes out of that.

One of the best things to come out of DIY was mixing up some unflavored and combining that with some store boughts to smooth out and cut back on stronger flavors. I have a couple already that I cut back from the start.

So, bottom line, I am plugging along slowly. I have a few flavors I haven't even tried yet. But if a mix doesn't turn out as well as I would like, I'll either use it up or play with it. As I mentioned in the thread on the "scale problem", at the cost of a 30ml mix, I have no problem mixing my test batches at that. Well, maybe my problem with that is how long it takes to use up a batch so I can move on .

And if all that is not enough, I took advantage of a special and picked up some "ultra premium" nic, so now I can throw that into my "trial and error" rotation. But going to try it first in an unflavored and if it is significantly better then the regular nic, may just keep that for all unflavored juice I've come to enjoy!

And thanks for asking! (although that may be the last time after that long-winded response)

Your post can be as long or short as you want. I really appreciate hearing about what you are mixing and what you like.
I am sorry I haven't been able to post my peanut butter fluff yet. I played with it and it's not what I wanted(did not like the new version I mixed) so if you have already mixed pb and you think it needs something you can try tfa vanilla swirl or marshmallow or both to smooth it out. Or if it needs a more peanut taste use some AP(drops only) from tfa. The AP will add more of a nutty flavor.
My last mix I tried using some brown sugar and another type of cream and it just didn't work. Muted the peanut taste too much, and then I made a mess of it trying to get the taste back and ended up with zero taste. So I remembered that too much flavor can do that so that's where its at now. I am not at home currently so I don't even have access to my written recipe(the one that worked last time) but have not forgotten that told you I would post it.
Slow is good in mixing if you have the patience. Me, I need to slow down in all things but not quite there yet.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

haha, yeah me too. I really enjoy getting down into the lab and toying with new recipes, testing them, etc. I have a couple months worth of flavors easily and a number of those in the picture (French Toast, Vanilla Custard and Deadly Sin v2 clone for sure) I already want to do 100ml or bigger batches of. I am running low on 100ml bottles and am out of anything bigger so I either need to vape like a maniac to empty some of my big bottle stash, or bite the bullet and place a bottle order.

I ended up buying more bottles. I could easily be accused of being a vendor but I only mix for myself and a couple of friends. I like the creative part of it all too. I guess I will have to find another outlet for that cause I am running out of room fast. LOL

 

[OlderNDirt]

if you have already mixed pb and you think it needs something you can try tfa vanilla swirl or marshmallow or both to smooth it out.

Ah, thanks for that tip! I have some marshmallow, so can try that in my next pb mix. I still have about 120ml of some store bought pb, so may even play with a wee bit of marshmallow in that. I am not really relying on my mixes yet (I have store bought that should easily last me through the end of the year), so that is why I am taking my time and thoroughly enjoying playing around.

 

[Mactavish]

I posted this in the gram mixing order thread, but felt it fit better here.

Stuff used all the time goes into HDPE squeeze bottles with yorker twist caps. Pour directly into glass bottle on scale, smallest I deal with are 10ml's sample size into 15ml bottles. Larger batches I use German made Pyrex media bottles (25, 50,100ml) their caps will not leak, can be completely submerged in ultrasonic cleaner if desired. Flavors are kept in original glass bottles from TFA, only brand I have so far. Gilson medical repeater pipette used for all flavors, small batch volumes I use the 1.25ml syringe, larger volumes, the 12.5ml syringe. Same single syringe quickly flushed several times with hot water in Pyrex measuring cup in sink, used again for next flavor. When I'm done mixing, I only have to wash ONE pipette syringe. It takes me longer to get my supplies out and put away, then mix and clean.

Adding this:

The OP "Capt.shay", did a great job in the very first post when he created this thread, certainly pass it on to anyone thinking about getting into DIY!

The only area that I depart in, is I don't transfer my flavors to plastic squeeze bottles. You could go 100% syringe and dropper free that way, as you see above I only use one syringe, but here are my reasons.

If you have a lot of flavors, you'll need to take the time to transfer them, you'll need a lot of squeeze bottles, 30 if you have 30 flavors, 100 if you have 100 flavors and so on. You'll have to label them. If you have the time, that's fine. More importantly, from all my research, including the recommendations from the flavor makers themselves, flavors are best kept in GLASS bottles with a good polycone cap, these are the way you get them if you buy them directly from TFA. At least all my smaller flavors came this way. Not all flavor resellers ship in glass bottles as they buy in volume and rebottle them into plastic, besides avoiding breakage in shipping. Wizard Labs supposedly sells in glass bottles but I have not ordered from them yet.

With glass you don't have to worry about any plastic potentially leaching into the flavor or liquids, though supposedly the worse plastic offender for leaching over time is "PET", the harder, clearer type. Both HDPE and LDPE plastics are not airtight, air will penetrate into a plastic bottle eventually, as well as some of the flavor molecules escaping over time. If you mix a lot, use your flavors up fairly quickly, then neither of the two issues above will be as much of a factor for you. I don't mix that often, so I want my flavors to be as fresh as possible for as long as possible. The ingredients I do keep in plastic HDPE squeeze bottles, I'm not concerned about in those regards, they will get used up fast enough in the small bottles I keep them in, and don't contain concentrated flavors.

I've read articles that even advise not keeping flavors in bottles with rubber dripper tops. Some flavors can slowly eat away the soft rubber, and flavor molecules can slowly escape through the same porous rubber on the bulb top. Same basic reason I prefer the twist tops over the little red caps on Yorker tops, more airtight. Again, if your mixing and using your supplies all the time, none of this may concern you.

Just posting the OCD way I like to do things based on what I've learned from the those that have been doing DIY a lot longer, and know a lot more then I do. Find what works for you and then just be consistent. Enjoy!

 

[Andromendous]

I posted this in the gram mixing order thread, but felt it fit better here.

Stuff used all the time goes into HDPE squeeze bottles with yorker twist caps.

Where do you get these bottles? Could you post a link? Thanks!

And the German glass bottles and pipettes too please