My decision to switch to unflavored.

[DingerCPA]

@nyiddle, by all means, vape as you choose to vape. I have no right to condemn your choice (because you're making choices to be safe) because I don't walk in your shoes. (Now, don't get me all started about "I'ma build a 3-wrap coil with a paper clip and run it on an efest 18350 - is this safe? And no, I don't have an ohmmeter. What's an ohm?" THAT, I will condemn - well, at least try to educate.)

I have mixed up a bit of unflavored, and it's not my favorite, but it's passable. Yes, I've chosen vaping in lieu of smoking because I see it to be less harmful in the long run. Perfect, no. Nothing is. But, I'm willing to accept the risk of whatever components are in e-juice because I still feel they're safer than all the toxic crap I was inhaling when I was smoking cigarettes - menthol, no less. (Besides, I appreciate the flavors - I don't need to snack as much because I'm satisfying the "taste" sensation in addition to all the other aspects of why I smoked in the first place....)

We NEED to be educated (about a LOT of things.) So, open, informative discussions - via ECF among other places - give us the venue through which we can have these discussions.

We bring to the table the information at hand. Each of us needs to absorb and then make the decision as to what's best for oneself. So, keep the discussions flowing

 

[DoubleEwe]

I do admire your decision to vape unflavoured, but it just doesn't cut the mustard for me.
I vape instead of smoking, but that only works for me if I actually enjoy the vaping experience, having flavours that I like is a big part of that.
Unflavoured just isn't a good enough taste to keep me off the ciggies, I know all the other benefits of vaping etc, but vaping unflavoured bores the excrement out of me.
I need flavours to maintain my interest in vaping.

 

[TraceyS]

I also have gone mostly all unflavored. I have some Castle Long I hang on to for occasions but other than that I get premixed 70/30 12mg nic from Bulk Eliquid LLC. I have four flavors to drip a drop in if I want flavor and a bottle of sweetener and menthol if wanted. Cheap vaping....and better than hundreds of bottles staring at me that I don't like!

Tracey

 

[skoony]

After much time deliberating (I kind of knew I'd make this switch after the paranoia got to me enough) I've decided to finish off/sell the last of my flavored e-liquid and switch to straight VG/nic base.

The information is just way too flim-flammy right now, and measurements for AP/diacetyl are sort of inconsequential or impossible to quantify because we don't know how much damage the stuff actually does. You've got some people saying to avoid the stuff, then you've got other people saying it's totally harmless. The argument that "there are 100x the levels" in cigarettes seems sort of confusing, and the "people get popcorn lung but think it's COPD" thing is also silly, because popcorn lung is far more severe than COPD (based on information I've found).

But the biggest problem is the lack of effort being made, on the part of juice companies, to remove these potentially harmful chemicals from their e-juice. "Oh but nyiddle, if it's not one thing it's another" well yeah, but this is something we are pretty sure isn't good to be inhaling, and no effort is being made to eradicate or minimize it from juice recipes. It's irresponsible. Not to mention, in the cases of companies that have supposedly eliminated diacetyl/AP from their e-liquids, they're often tested to find out the diacetyl/AP is still absolutely there! (You know who I'm talking about).

"Harm reduction" means exactly that. Obviously vaping will never be 100% safe (nothing is). But think about this, you could go smoking your whole life and potentially, potentially, never see any negative repercussions from it. Of course, you could smoke and get a horrible illness and live a terribly short life, it happens all the time. But imagine (hypothetically) in 5 years all these kids in their 20's who picked up vaping when they were 19 start suffering bronchiolitis obliterans. It's possible (though a slim possibility, I'll admit) they could have smoked their entire life and not seen negative repercussions. In this hypothetical situation, vaping is the opposite of harm reduction.

I'm not saying there's any truth to this idea that diketones are potentially screwing us all over, but at this point in time you'd be lying if you said "we really don't know," and the lack of information is scary. Even scarier is how nonchalant people seem to be about it. In the case of the factory workers they were exposed to something in the "ppb" (parts per billion) of diacetyl every day, for 8 hours. However, when analyzed, e-juice's diacetyl levels are meassured in the "ppm" (parts per million). That's 1000x more than found in factories. Nobody seems to mention this glaringly spooky fact: Our e-juice contains upwards of 1000x more diacetyl than the factory workers were exposed to, for 8 hours a day. What does this really mean for our health?

Nobody knows.

So this was a pretty big rant, and I expect it to prompt some (ideally) non-derogatory, meaningful, and informative discussion. Otherwise, I suppose, get out the pitchforks. ----E

On a side note -- anyone know of any good vendors for pre-mixed VG+nicotine?

1000 x more? where are these figures coming from?
heres what Dr. F said about the NIOSH
standards.
"The cut-off level of risk calculated by NIOSH for the safety limit is for 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with lifelong diacetyl exposure, which is a very conservative estimation."
conservative or not in the real world it means zero.its not will have reduced lung function,its
a chance they may.
here is the the good doctors explanation. please read it in its entirety not,
cherry pick pieces of it.
A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk
regards
mike

 

[Mazinny]

1000 x more? where are these figures coming from?
heres what Dr. F said about the NIOSH
standards.
"The cut-off level of risk calculated by NIOSH for the safety limit is for 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with lifelong diacetyl exposure, which is a very conservative estimation."
conservative or not in the real world it means zero.its not will have reduced lung function,its
a chance they may.
here is the the good doctors explanation. please read it in its entirety not,
cherry pick pieces of it.
A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk
regards
mike

Skoony,

here's an interview with Dr. F from last night i believe discussing what the numbers mean exactly from his point of view. It starts around minute 47. Before that there's an interview with Mike from Vaporshark explaining why they decided to test all the juices they carry.

 

[motordude]

Thanks skoony!!!
Finally someone shows me some data. I thought I had been sleeping under a rock.
How do I get to see this podcast?

Edit : thank you Mazinny. I type slow

 

[nyiddle]

1000 x more? where are these figures coming from?

People have estimated that the factory workers were exposed to 71 ppb (daily, 8 hours a day) of diacetyl. The amount of diacetyl in some juices is 70 ppm. The difference between million and billion is 1,000x (ie: 1000 millions make a billion).

Also, excuse me for not trusting an obviously biased article from "ecigarette-research.com" -- not a scholarly journal or verifiable source by any means.

This is a good guide for verifying that a source is credible and unbiased.

 

[nebulis]

@nyiddle, I understand your decision and made a very similar one a couple of months ago.

I vape because I don't want to smoke. I don't vape in order to try and find out which artifical food flavorings are tolerable for me by means of inhalation (I never liked any single one longer than a couple of days). As a matter of fact, I avoid them with food - so why should I inhale them? Liquid shops seem to suggest that nothing else than flavored liquids are meant to be vaped. You can buy base, yes, to be flavored by DIY. Unflavored liquid is not part of the marketing strategy and it all suggests that flavorless must taste awful.

I too did not consider unflavored liquid as a valid option when I began vaping. But after a couple of months my frustration level with flavors was overwhelming. Discussions about "avoidable risks" and nonexistent declarations of liquid and flavor sellers led to the decision that after all I don't have to use flavor, or not that much of it. Gunky coils were another reason. I reduced the flavor in my DIY liquids to a mere inkling and enjoy the pure luxury of long lasting coils and of the peace of mind to be free from that everlasting search for the best allday flavor.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I started as everybody - buying flavored juices. They all (ALL) tasted bad for me; chemicals, you know. So, one month later I started DIY, bought some flavors. Again, did not like even a single one. Switched to unflavored. Once I added a few drops of my old flavored juice to my unflavored, and it worked - slight and rather pleasant background to a nice unflavored vape. Now I vape mostly slightly flavored juice, about 1/5 - 1/10 or recommended concentration. No custards (I just do not like them). Wicks on my Kayfun are good for a week or two.

 

[skoony]

Skoony,

here's an interview with Dr. F from last night i believe discussing what the numbers mean exactly from his point of view. It starts around minute 47. Before that there's an interview with Mike from Vaporshark explaining why they decided to test all the juices they carry.

they are talking about vapersharks results.
i suspect this vapershark deal is not over.
mike

 

[BigEgo]

I made a long post on reddit about this issue that was upvoted to the top, so I suspect nyiddle is using some of my math. However, he got something a bit wrong, which I will explain below.

When NIOSH took air samples from the (6 I believe) popcorn plants they found an average of about 57 ppm (parts per million) of diacetyl in the mixing rooms. This means that the workers at the most risk (mixers) were breathing in an average of 57 ppm for about 8 hours a day. As a result of these numbers and various animal studies, NIOSH came up with a recommended safe limit for diacetyl and AP. They recommend that the time weighted average over a 40 hour work week be limited to 5 ppb (parts per billion) and a STEL (short term exposure limit over 15 minutes) be limited to about ~40 ppb for diacetyl (the AP limits were higher, but not by much). If the plants remain in compliance with those numbers, NIOSH estimates that at these levels a worker will have a 1/1000 chance of serious lung issues being developed. (Nyiddle was a bit confused -- the 5 ppb is the NIOSH recommended limit and not the number that the sick workers were exposed to -- they were indeed exposed to numbers on the ppm level).

Dr. Farsilinos in his diacetyl study took these recommended ambient air levels for factory workers and tried to come up with a vaping equivalent. Time weighted averages over a 40 hour work week don't mean anything to us vapers (it really only makes sense to industrial hygienist or chemists). To make a long story short,Dr. F came up with a total number of DA/AP that one can inhale per day to stay within the NIOSH recommendations. It turns out that the number for DA is around 60 ug and for AP is about 130 ug (micrograms). Now, if we know how much DA/AP is in each mL of our eliquid, then it makes it easy to stay within the said limit.

For example, if you see that your favorite eliquid tested at 10 ppm for diacetyl, this correlates to 10 ug/mL. Therefore, simple math tells us that one could vape about 6 mL before hitting the NIOSH recommended limit.

Keep in mind, however, that Enthalpy labs (as well as most other commercial labs) have a lower testing limit of 1-5 ppm. Most of them simply are not capable of testing down to the ppb level. Therefore, some juices may test "clean" but may still contain either chemical. So it is conceivable that a heavy vaper (say 15+mL a day) could still approach the limit even with juices that test "clean."

Now, here's a list of some of the worst offenders that VS tested (this list was compiled on reddit by Russ from Click Bang Radio):

Vintage E-Liquids - The Drifter 1867 ppm

Beard Vape Co. - #51 1843 ppm

Traditional Juice Co. - Indian Giver 1487 ppm

Cyclops Vapor - Colossus 1042 ppm

Alpha Vape - Sweet Tooth 815ppm

Must Vape - Pencil 759 ppm

KILO - Tru Blue 711 ppm

Omega Vape - Santeria 671 ppm

D Squared - Gritz 520 ppm

Hurricane Vapor - Papaya Milkshake 484 ppm

Cuttwood - Sugar Bear 468 ppm

Cosmic Fog - Milk & Honey 425 ppm

As you can see, even vaping 1 mL of any of these juices would put you well over the recommended limit. Some of them at the top would probably put you over the limit by taking one puff.

 

[nyiddle]

I made a long post on reddit about this issue that was upvoted to the top, so I suspect nyiddle is using some of my math. However, he got something a bit wrong, which I will explain below.

When NIOSH took air samples from the (6 I believe) popcorn plants they found an average of about 57 ppm (parts per million) of diacetyl in the mixing rooms. This means that the workers at the most risk (mixers) were breathing in an average of 57 ppm for about 8 hours a day. As a result of these numbers and various animal studies, NIOSH came up with a recommended safe limit for diacetyl and AP. They recommend that the time weighted average over a 40 hour work week be limited to 5 ppb (parts per billion) and a STEL (short term exposure limit over 15 minutes) be limited to about ~40 ppb for diacetyl (the AP limits were higher, but not by much). If the plants remain in compliance with those numbers, NIOSH estimates that at these levels a worker will have a 1/1000 chance of serious lung issues being developed. (Nyiddle was a bit confused -- the 5 ppb is the NIOSH recommended limit and not the number that the sick workers were exposed to -- they were indeed exposed to numbers on the ppm level).

Dr. Farsilinos in his diacetyl study took these recommended ambient air levels for factory workers and tried to come up with a vaping equivalent. Time weighted averages over a 40 hour work week don't mean anything to us vapers (it really only makes sense to industrial hygienist or chemists). To make a long story short,Dr. F came up with a total number of DA/AP that one can inhale per day to stay within the NIOSH recommendations. It turns out that the number for DA is around 60 ug and for AP is about 130 ug (micrograms). Now, if we know how much DA/AP is in each mL of our eliquid, then it makes it easy to stay within the said limit.

For example, if you see that your favorite eliquid tested at 10 ppm for diacetyl, this correlates to 10 ug/mL. Therefore, simple math tells us that one could vape about 6 mL before hitting the NIOSH recommended limit.

Keep in mind, however, that Enthalpy labs (as well as most other commercial labs) have a lower testing limit of 1-5 ppm. Most of them simply are not capable of testing down to the ppb level. Therefore, some juices may test "clean" but may still contain either chemical. So it is conceivable that a heavy vaper (say 15+mL a day) could still approach the limit even with juices that test "clean."

Now, here's a list of some of the worst offenders that VS tested (this list was compiled on reddit by Russ from Click Bang Radio):

(list)

As you can see, even vaping 1 mL of any of these juices would put you well over the recommended limit. Some of them at the top would probably put you over the limit by taking one puff.

That makes a lot more sense, and I've been avidly researching whatever I can find (and concrete data is really hard to find) in regards to this matter, so odds are I've seen your Reddit post. I appreciate the clarification on the math bit, and it does alleviate a bit of my concern (though not enough to stop me from switching to flavorless -- at least for the time being).

That Beard Vape Co. #51 is scary high, and I think they're one of the companies that claimed their juices were diacetyl/AP-free. I suspect some of the other high-ranking companies that weren't included in VS's Enthalpy test would come up insanely high too.

With Dr. F's notion of limiting the daily intake of diacetyl in mind, I might try and mix some of my pre-mixed juices in with the unflavored if I find myself unsatisfied with the unflavored alone. The thing that really bums me out is that one of my ADV's, a fruity vape (I almost don't want to name names) with no custard/cream notes at all, came up higher than certain custard flavors in terms of diacetyl/AP. Finding that out was kind of an earth-shattering "WOAH" moment that really, really bummed me out. I was aware that the juice may have had a small amount of one or the other in it, but to find out that it had so much was really the point where I had to say, "K, we can't vape this all day anymore."

The other disconcerting thing is how often Enthalpy has come into question, because -- correct me if I'm wrong -- one of the head members of Enthalpy owns an e-liquid company himself. Maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's skewing results to edge out competition. Beyond that, I've heard of Enthalpy testing the same juice twice and coming out with different results.

With all the fishiness and potential misinformation, I definitely want to switch to flavorless, or some kind of light-flavored DIY alternative.

 

[Mazinny]

That makes a lot more sense, and I've been avidly researching whatever I can find (and concrete data is really hard to find) in regards to this matter, so odds are I've seen your Reddit post. I appreciate the clarification on the math bit, and it does alleviate a bit of my concern (though not enough to stop me from switching to flavorless -- at least for the time being).

That Beard Vape Co. #51 is scary high, and I think they're one of the companies that claimed their juices were diacetyl/AP-free. I suspect some of the other high-ranking companies that weren't included in VS's Enthalpy test would come up insanely high too.

With Dr. F's notion of limiting the daily intake of diacetyl in mind, I might try and mix some of my pre-mixed juices in with the unflavored if I find myself unsatisfied with the unflavored alone. The thing that really bums me out is that one of my ADV's, a fruity vape (I almost don't want to name names) with no custard/cream notes at all, came up higher than certain custard flavors in terms of diacetyl/AP. Finding that out was kind of an earth-shattering "WOAH" moment that really, really bummed me out. I was aware that the juice may have had a small amount of one or the other in it, but to find out that it had so much was really the point where I had to say, "K, we can't vape this all day anymore."

The other disconcerting thing is how often Enthalpy has come into question, because -- correct me if I'm wrong -- one of the head members of Enthalpy owns an e-liquid company himself. Maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's skewing results to edge out competition. Beyond that, I've heard of Enthalpy testing the same juice twice and coming out with different results.

With all the fishiness and potential misinformation, I definitely want to switch to flavorless, or some kind of light-flavored DIY alternative.

I don't believe the owner of Enthalpy is a vendor. He is on the board of directors of AEMSA ( a voluntary trade association ). The vendor ( i believe Vapor Chef ) which claimed the same juice was tested with different results is a long time critic of AEMSA so maybe he has an axe to grind ( where they really two samples of the same liquid ). I just don't know. A lot of shady business in this industry.

 

[BigEgo]

That makes a lot more sense, and I've been avidly researching whatever I can find (and concrete data is really hard to find) in regards to this matter, so odds are I've seen your Reddit post. I appreciate the clarification on the math bit, and it does alleviate a bit of my concern (though not enough to stop me from switching to flavorless -- at least for the time being).

That Beard Vape Co. #51 is scary high, and I think they're one of the companies that claimed their juices were diacetyl/AP-free. I suspect some of the other high-ranking companies that weren't included in VS's Enthalpy test would come up insanely high too.

With Dr. F's notion of limiting the daily intake of diacetyl in mind, I might try and mix some of my pre-mixed juices in with the unflavored if I find myself unsatisfied with the unflavored alone. The thing that really bums me out is that one of my ADV's, a fruity vape (I almost don't want to name names) with no custard/cream notes at all, came up higher than certain custard flavors in terms of diacetyl/AP. Finding that out was kind of an earth-shattering "WOAH" moment that really, really bummed me out. I was aware that the juice may have had a small amount of one or the other in it, but to find out that it had so much was really the point where I had to say, "K, we can't vape this all day anymore."

The other disconcerting thing is how often Enthalpy has come into question, because -- correct me if I'm wrong -- one of the head members of Enthalpy owns an e-liquid company himself. Maybe it's nothing, or maybe it's skewing results to edge out competition. Beyond that, I've heard of Enthalpy testing the same juice twice and coming out with different results.

With all the fishiness and potential misinformation, I definitely want to switch to flavorless, or some kind of light-flavored DIY alternative.

Here is a good scientific review done by CDC/NIOSH in regard to formulating standards regarding DA/AP. I will post the preface below. It's kind of long, but worth a read.

Diacetyl is used extensively in the flavoring and food production industry, and occupational exposure to this substance has been associated with severe obstructive lung disease, bronchiolitis obliterans, and decrease in lung function. Bronchiolitis obliterans is a life threatening disease and decreased pulmonary function has been associated with degraded quality of life and increased mortality [Cullen et al. 1983; Ebi-Kryston et al. 1989; Heng et al. 1998; Mannino and Davis 2006; Mannino et al. 2006]. 2,3-Pentanedione has been used as a substitute for diacetyl and is of concern because of structural similarities with diacetyl and because of animal studies showing similar pathology as seen with diacetyl in exposed animals and workers [Hubbs et al. 2010; Morgan et al. 2010].

In 1985, two workers with fixed obstructive lung disease suggestive of bronchiolitis obliterans were observed in a facility where flavorings with diacetyl were made for the baking industry [NIOSH 1985]. The link between exposure to diacetyl and the risk of bronchiolitis obliterans was identified in the early 2000s when research confirmed a relationship exists between diacetyl exposures and lower pulmonary function [Kreiss et al. 2002]. Occupational exposures to diacetyl have been assessed in various food production and flavoring facilities [Kanwal et al. 2006; Martyny et al. 2008; NIOSH 2003a, b, 2004a, b, 2006, 2007a, 2008a, b, 2009d, 2011b]. Mean diacetyl air concentrations measured at the index microwave popcorn facility were the highest in the mixing room (57.2 ppm), followed by the packaging area for machine operators (2.8 ppm) [Kanwal et al. 2011]. Mean diacetyl air concentrations at five other microwave popcorn plants were lower: 0.02 to 0.83 ppm in the packaging areas and 0.63 to 1.54 ppm in the mixing rooms/areas.

Using cross-sectional pulmonary function data from diacetyl exposed workers, NIOSH conducted analyses to determine the exposure-response relationship and identify risk of pulmonary function decrease at various levels of diacetyl exposure. NIOSH found that a relationship exists between diacetyl exposures and lower pulmonary function.

Utilizing this quantitative risk analysis, NIOSH recommends that exposure to diacetyl be kept below a concentration of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as a time-weighted average (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. NIOSH has determined that workers exposed to diacetyl at this concentration should have no more than a 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with diacetyl exposure and less chance for developing bronchiolitis obliterans. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period.

In many operations, 2,3-pentanedione and other substances are being used to substitute for diacetyl. There is little health effect data on these substances but it is appropriate to consider some of them as potentially as hazardous as diacetyl. Specifically, 2,3-pentanedione is structurally very similar to diacetyl because it is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone, and diacetyl is a 4- carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione suggest that in rats 2,3-pentanedione causes airway epithelial damage similar to that produced by diacetyl [Hubbs et al. 2010; Morgan et al. 2010]. The toxic potency of the two substances appears to be roughly comparable. Therefore, NIOSH recommends keeping occupational exposure to 2,3-pentanedione below a level comparable to that recommended for diacetyl. However, analytical limitations of the recommended method indicate that 2,3-pentanedione can only be reliably quantified to 9.3 ppb. This is slightly higher than what is recommended for diacetyl. NIOSH recommends that exposure to 2,3-pentanedione be kept below a concentration of 9.3 ppb in a TWA during a 40- hour work week. NIOSH also recommends a STEL for 2,3-pentanedione of 31 ppb during a 15- minute period.

 

[motordude]

Thanks nyiddle for this very informative thread. I have learned a lot today.

 

[ThroatPunch]

Very informative. I too learned a lot... Does anyone have any non flavored recommendations?

 

[nyiddle]

Very informative. I too learned a lot... Does anyone have any non flavored recommendations?

Since making this thread (its been about 2 months), I've switched to flavorless with a little bit of some of my old flavored juices in it -- I also have some flavorings that have been tested, and I'm confident don't have any D/A/AP in them. I've cut out all of the juices I know have any diketones in them. But as I stated, that's the spooky part: Many juices just aren't tested, or they're tested by the actual company, so there's still that questionable quality to them.

Anyway, I bought the "DIY Kit" from KidneyPuncher, I think it's a nice place to start if you're looking to DIY and control what goes into your e-liquid. They'll sell you a bottle of nic, VG, PG, and several bottles of flavorings for a pretty low price. Other than that, when I run out of VG (still got some time) I'm gonna restock from this site. I've read good things, and the price is certainly right (1L of VG for 28$? That's 1000mL.) I've also heard good things about ecigexpress and some other sites, but realistically, if you can find USP/food-grade glycerin at like Wal-Greens/CVS/K-Mart, that works just fine.

 

[nebulis]

@nyiddle, .... I reduced the flavor in my DIY liquids to a mere inkling and enjoy the pure luxury of long lasting coils and of the peace of mind to be free from that everlasting search for the best allday flavor.

Quick update: No inkling any more
About two weeks ago I switched to unflavored. Surprisingly, it did not really require getting used to. It just tastes normal with a slight reminiscence of how smoking was.

 

[X6X8]

I've settled in at 3 very slightly flavored, and unflavored. 12mg, 80pg/20vg, w/ 5% WTA.

 

[Racehorse]

Sorry for being a bit defensive, I just anticipate a bunch of mindless bashing

Bashing someone who is looking out for their health, in the the way they choose, is really kinda dumb, isn't it.

So, I wouldn't worry 'bout that too much.

Less is more. The less we put into our lungs the better. No need to apologize for "taking it all down a notch".

Other than the DAP chemicals, vaping unflavored just clears up a lot of things in general, and what I will be doing as soon as I run out of what I got now (which isn't much).

No more spending $$ chasing flavor with ejuices and delivery devices, no gunked coils, etc. I notice when I AM vaping unflavored, a week later I can barely STAND any flavorings, everything tastes too strong to me.