New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

True, but it only took you one weekend to get those thermocouple data together. I think the industry can come up with a way of accomplishing the same without a huge investment. I do hope if basic testing like this is done and accepted as a PMTA, or however it finally turns out as requirements for applications, that these data can be use for SE applications, because as you state, heat is heat.

And while I do understand the dysfunctional manner most bureaucracies function under, reinventing the wheel several thousand times is really pretty stupid, especially from an objective scientific perspective.

Yeah, the manufacturers need to step up, but with the FDA breathing down their back they are proceeding cautiously. PMTAs will require it though, and they are allowed to reference published studies that already exist. So we should start seeing some studies go public as the PMTA deadline approaches.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/e-cigarette-research-temperature-of-evaporation#/
I am still disappointed that this never came to a reality. Manny in the vaping community (including myself) stood behind him and came up with the $73k, yet it has been 2 years and still has yet to happen.

 

[zoiDman]

True, but it only took you one weekend to get those thermocouple data together. I think the industry can come up with a way of accomplishing the same without a huge investment. I do hope if basic testing like this is done and accepted as a PMTA, or however it finally turns out as requirements for applications, that these data can be use for SE applications, because as you state, heat is heat.

And while I do understand the dysfunctional manner most bureaucracies function under, reinventing the wheel several thousand times is really pretty stupid, especially from an objective scientific perspective.

How long do you think it would take to Prepare a PMTA-able Protocol just to Test Wire Temperature?

125 Man Hours?

200 Man Hours?

Many, Many More?

 

[440BB]

It looks like the approximate boiling point of my main mix is 323 F. Interesting and somewhat comforting.

 

[mikepetro]

One thing to keep in Mind, when considering a PMTA, is that TC Isn't going to be used to Enhance the Hit a user gets. It is going to be Built in to Prevent Exceeding a Given Wire Temperature.

If the Study Data supports that at Something Non-Beneficial occurs at say 420F and above, you can be Assured that TC would be Hard-Wired to Never Exceed 420F. Or Less

And the user won't have the Ability to turn TC On/Off. TC will Always be On.

I have heard this exact concept from people who are submitting PMTAs. It will be the way with Pod-mods etc. Otherwise their product will never get past the PMTA stage. But, they are still able to provide a satisfying vape by adjusting the boiling point of the juice, and using nicotine salts etc. The focus is truly on safety, or what the Feds call safe anyway.

 

[mikepetro]

How long do you think it would take to Prepare a PMTA-able Protocol just to Test Wire Temperature?

125 Man Hours?

200 Man Hours?

Many, Many More?

No clue, but the standard of proof will be scientifically very high. Much of it will be documentation showing that every bit of testing equipment is traceable to the NIST etc. And then, the test will only be valid for a single wire/juice/mod combination, ie a closed system. If they try to make it generic, or open system, the testing requirement will increase exponentially.

 

[zoiDman]

I have heard this exact concept from people who are submitting PMTAs. It will be the way with Pod-Mods etc. Otherwise their product will never get past the PMTA stage. But, they are still able to provide a satisfying vape by adjusting the boiling point of the juice, and using nicotine salts etc. The focus is truly on safety, or what the Feds call safe anyway.

Yeah... There are Really Two Universes.

The One we Live in. And the One that is PMTA-able under the current system.

 

[zoiDman]

No clue, but the standard of proof will be scientifically very high. Much of it will be documentation showing that every bit of testing equipment is traceable to the MIST etc. And then, the test will only be valid for a single wire/juice/mod combination, ie a closed system. If they try to make it generic, or open system, the testing requirement will increase exponentially.

And you Know what happens when there is 1 Teeny Tiny Hole in a Protocol.

So you need to have Teams prepare things. And then you need Teams to Review things. And Teams to Approve things. And then the Protocol needs to be Tested against Known Standards. And then the Stat People get involved. And the Legal Team(s) are Always present at Every Step in Process.

The Man Hours involved can be Enormous. And their built against "Professional Rates". So the Cost can be Staggering.

Then Lump in that a PMTA Submitter has No Clue how high the FDA Bar is set. So you Can't Error on the side of Less. You have to Error on the Side of More. Or else it All goes down a Rat Hole.

And all the while Combustible Cigarettes have been Grandfathered.

Only in America.

LOL

 

[mikepetro]

There can be lots of wire, multiple coils, fired at a lower temp and produce lots of vapor or less wire at a higher temp. There isn't a one to one correlation between temp and vapor if there can be different coil arrangements.

True, mass of wick and coil play a big factor. With a lot of mass you generate a lot of vapor, but there still is a correlation to the boiling temp of the liquid. At a given temp, more mass equals more vapor.

 

[Ryedan]

If I could summarize everything I've learned in this thread, including the studies referenced, it would be that vaping pure VG = bad, pure VG with 5% water = Good, vaping pure PG = you must be a beast

Since early last year I have not been adding any VG to my juices. My 100 mg nic base is 50/50 though as I bought it a couple of years back when I did use VG. Considering how little nic I use, I estimate my typical juice mix is a bit less than 1% VG.

If by your beast comment above you meant it is a really harsh vape, I'm not experiencing that. I wish PG influenced TH way more than it does. I always wonder when people talk about PG having a big influence on TH if they've ever tried it. Of course it may be more pronounced at higher nic levels, but when you're down to 1 - 2 mg at 20'ish watts it's not really what I consider beastly

 

[Pamawoman]

I am assuming that CE 4's are the same as Iclear16 and 30's. If so I am not happy right now. I have maybe 50 of them in my stash. My fav vape is an auto battery with an iclear. I am wondering since I only use my iclears on pen style batteries is the temp an issue or are these batteries so weak that they don't get that hot? I got to page 25 on this thread before I gave up trying to find out. You all are way beyond me. Thanks for the help. I will be so bummed if Inhave to throw them out. Also, I do have a TC mod. I have not used it because it is pretty complicated. But can I put an iclear on that? Sorry for all the questions and thank you for any answers you might have. Mike has helped me before. He is really cool!!!

 

[mikepetro]

I am assuming that CE 4's are the same as Iclear16 and 30's. If so I am not happy right now. I have maybe 50 of them in my stash. My fav vape is an auto battery with an iclear. I am wondering since I only use my iclears on pen style batteries is the temp an issue or are these batteries so weak that they don't get that hot? I got to page 25 on this thread before I gave up trying to find out. You all are way beyond me. Thanks for the help. I will be so bummed if Inhave to throw them out. Also, I do have a TC mod. I have not used it because it is pretty complicated. But can I put an iclear on that? Sorry for all the questions and thank you for any answers you might have. Mike has helped me before. He is really cool!!!

Unfortunately the Iclears are in the same vane as the CE4s. Pretty much encompasses all of the "top-coil" attys of the day. Now, are yours too hot or not, I cant say. To minimize the shortcomings of that design, keep the tank full and tip the atty upside down before hitting to make sure the wick is well saturated. If it starts tasting the least bit dry then soak that wick again. And dial down the voltage if that battery will let you.

These slides are by our own Dr Kurt here on ECF.

 

[Pamawoman]

Unfortunately the Iclears are in the same vane as the CE4s. Pretty much encompasses all of the "top-coil" attys of the day. Now, are yours too hot or not, I cant say. To minimize the shortcomings of that design, keep the tank full and tip the atty upside down before hitting to make sure the wick is well saturated. If it starts tasting the least bit dry then soak that wick again. And dial down the voltage if that battery will let you.

These slides are by our own Dr Kurt here on ECF.
View attachment 651227

View attachment 651229

Thank you for the info. I saw this at the start of the thread and knew it was no Bueno for me. I have only had a dry hit a few times. I keep them at least halfway full to avoid that. Can I try them on my TC mod or are they Kanthal? I really do not know what the coils are. And I do not want to ruin the only TC mod I have. I am planning on using it when the day comes that I start building my own coils. Which will be sooner now. Great thread BTW.

 

[mikepetro]

Thank you for the info. I saw this at the start of the thread and knew it was no Bueno for me. I have only had a dry hit a few times. I keep them at least halfway full to avoid that. Can I try them on my TC mod or are they Kanthal? I really do not know what the coils are. And I do not want to ruin the only TC mod I have. I am planning on using it when the day comes that I start building my own coils. Which will be sooner now. Great thread BTW.

I can pretty much guarantee they wont work on a TC mod in temp mode, but they would work in Power/Watts mod, just keep the watts at 7w or below. They are almost certainly made with Kanthal or Nichrome wire.

 

[Pamawoman]

I can pretty much guarantee they wont work on a TC mod in temp mode, but they would work in Power/Watts mod, just keep the watts at 7w or below. They are almost certainly made with Kanthal or Nichrome wire.

Thank you. I can use them on my itaste and control the watts. Cool. They are staying for now. LOL. And thank you so much for this thread. Really important info for those of us who are trying to avoid some of the trouble we already bought by smoking for way too long.

 

[Pamawoman]

And you Know what happens when there is 1 Teeny Tiny Hole in a Protocol.

So you need to have Teams prepare things. And then you need Teams to Review things. And Teams to Approve things. And then the Protocol needs to be Tested against Known Standards. And then the Stat People get involved. And the Legal Team(s) are Always present at Every Step in Process.

The Man Hours involved can be Enormous. And their built against "Professional Rates". So the Cost can be Staggering.

Then Lump in that a PMTA Submitter has No Clue how high the FDA Bar is set. So you Can't Error on the side of Less. You have to Error on the Side of More. Or else it All goes down a Rat Hole.

And all the while Combustible Cigarettes have been Grandfathered.

Only in America.

LOL

Off topic. This dude over where I posted about my battery venting really needs to chill out. Does he always sound so aggressive? I am trying to be nice but dang he acts like I am building mechs.

 

[mikepetro]

Off topic. This dude over where I posted about my battery venting really needs to chill out. Does he always sound so aggressive? I am trying to be nice but dang he acts like I am building mechs.

I say this with the utmost respect, and good intent:

While maybe not put the most politely, pretty much everything said in the thread is true. The tech may be what you love, and what got you off the stinkies, but it is a bit dated. Both in functionality and safety standards.

Maybe its time you looked at some of the Pod Mods hitting the market, like the Juul. The tech has come has come a long way since the Spinner/Iclear days. Its quite a bit safer now, and they have automatic ones too.

 

[beckdg]

Off topic. This dude over where I posted about my battery venting really needs to chill out. Does he always sound so aggressive? I am trying to be nice but dang he acts like I am building mechs.

Yes.

And to be quite blunt, I'm tired of apologizing about it this week.

Had you had the decency to address me directly, I might have taken a different stance.

Either way, you're welcomed.

You desperately needed someone to tell you what you didn't want to hear.

Apparently more than I thought.

BTW: I may be blunt to the point of detriment, but this was downright disrespectful.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

I say this with the utmost respect, and good intent:

While maybe not put the most politely, pretty much everything said in the thread is true. The tech may be what you love, and what got you off the stinkies, but it is a bit dated. Both in functionality and safety standards.

Maybe its time you looked at some of the Pod Mods hitting the market, like the Juul. The tech has come has come a long way since the Spinner/Iclear days. Its quite a bit safer now, and they have automatic ones too.

Thank you, Mike.

I know I don't come off right when read out of context.

Sorry you had to clean up.

Tapatyped

 

[Mowgli]

Is that a pack of smokes I see there on the table????
Mowgli!.......

Nice boxes though!

Thanks, they make great gifts

That picture was 2009 or 2010 so of course there was a pack of coffin nails.

Ashes on everything, burns on clothes, car seats and between my index & ....finger from the cig getting stuck to my lip so the cherry got pulled off, dry hacking cough from November to May and usually lung involvement for a couple of months, 2AM trips to the store because I only had 1/2 pack left, etc x100
Yup, those were the days

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks, they make great gifts

That picture was 2009 or 2010 so of course there was a pack of coffin nails.

Ashes on everything, burns on clothes, car seats and between my index & ....finger from the cig getting stuck to my lip so the cherry got pulled off, dry hacking cough from November to May and usually lung involvement for a couple of months, 2AM trips to the store because I only had 1/2 pack left, etc x100
Yup, those were the days

And the expense, OMG, I have spent a ton on vape gear, and I am still certain I saved a bunch of moola.

Was looking at them the other day in the Grocery store, $70 a carton, and I went through a carton a week.....
$240 a month
$3.6k a year (thats a nice vacation)

And I live in a tobacco state, I can only imagine what its like in the high sin tax states.