New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I think we are both saying the same thing, you from a Provari bias, and me from a dna bias.
Evolv claims +/- 10f, which in Instrumentation terms is not extremely accurate. Precise instruments are usually +/- 0.5f. Thats why John said when using a dna for testing aldehydes you should use an external device to validate temperature, like the thermocouples I use.
IMHO, properly setup TC devices are a heck of a lot more accurate, with regards to temperature, than VV or VW devices. With VV/VW you have a heck of a lot more variables that can/do affect temp.
It depends on the variables I listed for a TC mod. If properly built DNAs are accurate +/- 10 degrees. Show me a VV/VW that can claim that.Well, that's quite ambiguous. "They may or they may not be accurate."
Honestly, a lot of commercial TC mods are not well built, and the majority of TC Mod owners dont understand the important variables. John and Brandon were spot on in the 3 PB videos when they said TC was too fiddly.
I totally understand, and do agree with you, perhaps this is just semantics, and the discussion at that point was the scale of accuracy, from TC being the high point, to VW, VV, and at the very bottom Mech devices, dependent on the state of charge...one must also consider all the other makers of TC boards and their particular way they deal with TC. I think he was talking in general and not just about the Evolve products. I am looking at your thread from the perspective of somebody who uses VV, VW, and mech bottom fed devices, at relatively benign builds, ( 7-9) watts on average, and one who recognized very early on that something wasn't quite right with the ProTank setup, and used cotton builds in those coils to eliminate an off taste that I detected.
To be honest, I have yet to use TC, and probably should get some SS wire to experiment with...I currently use 29 and 30 GA kanthal. This subject is interesting to me, and though I may come across as somewhat of a skeptic, that is just my curiosity coming through. I am following this thread to hopefully learn things, so thank you for what you are doing here...
Well, the whole premise of this thread is "Temperature Matters". With VV and VW you cant predict temperature (unless tested externally under your exact vape conditions), and in my experience, I personally cant taste it below 505f which is well above the thermal degradation point of VG.
There are many "private" conversations, and a lot of public data that confirms the thermal degradation phenomena of VG, it is proven fact that it starts to degrade around 420f. What remains to be seen is the significance of it (actual quantity) under actual realistic use of real gear while monitoring temperature. That is what I am hoping to put in perspective with this formaldehyde meter.
There are many "private" conversations, and a lot of public data that confirms the thermal degradation phenomena of VG, it is proven fact that it starts to degrade around 420f. What remains to be seen is the significance of it (actual quantity) under actual realistic use of real gear while monitoring temperature. That is what I am hoping to put in perspective with this formaldehyde meter.
The "hockey stick" metaphor Brandon used seemed intentionally vague to me. Was it to avoid sending up a red flag about a specific temperature or range that they are aware of or because they are uncomfortable with the results of the Chen study?
John's repeated statement that there is no commercial reason to share their results sounds too much like what a pharmaceutical company might say. Omitting ethics from the conversation is convenient.
Glad we are here to find out more specifically where the bend actually occurs in real use. It does piss me off that they very well may have that data internally at Evolv. The greed/social responsibility tradeoff decision they have made is painfully obvious and undermines my perception of them as leaders in this adolescent industry. That perception may have a commercial cost they have not considered.
Good to revisit these videos - I must have tuned out a bit the first time I watched them!
John's repeated statement that there is no commercial reason to share their results sounds too much like what a pharmaceutical company might say. Omitting ethics from the conversation is convenient.
Glad we are here to find out more specifically where the bend actually occurs in real use. It does piss me off that they very well may have that data internally at Evolv. The greed/social responsibility tradeoff decision they have made is painfully obvious and undermines my perception of them as leaders in this adolescent industry. That perception may have a commercial cost they have not considered.
Good to revisit these videos - I must have tuned out a bit the first time I watched them!
The issue is fairly complex with lots of scenarios that can play out, and Evolv is sorta looking to survive as a business and not pack it in come 2022.
Let's say Evolv has the whole temp/aldehyde data sitting in their drawer, it will only apply to the components tested, and still not have that data has not been confirmed to be reproducible by others. Pretend they have data which shows at 443F, aldehyde production begins to rise exponentially, and folks rely on that as the basis of remaining "safe". Now another researcher comes along and finds no, it's really 408F. And that researcher's experiment is reproducible. All of a sudden, Evolv is liable for any reliance on their figures that folks might have relied on, and vaped above 408F but below Evolv's "wrong" 443F.
Another scenario, Evolv gets their PMTA approved. Does anyone, including Evolv, know if that will establish the basis for every other manufacturer to file a far simpler and cheaper SE application and ride on Evolv's coat tails? That sorta sucks for Evolv to essentially be funding another company's R&D.
Then of course there's also the whole "well, it was paid for by the company, of course it will come out great", which we toss around about BP all the time. Want objective data? Wait for a third party researcher without financial ties to reproduce the testing. See scenario one.
Would I like to know Evolv's data right now? Sure. Do I understand why they're holding their cards close? Yes. Hopefully independent researchers test and publish the performance of TC in a real life setting will be released prior to the completion of the PMTA process by Evolv (or any other company going at it for temp limiting protections).
Granted, all valid points. But as I sit here struggling to wrap some legitimate data around this, knowing they (and others) have it in their pocket. Well, I cant help but not like it.......
I'd just want everything put into full context, whenever it is that we actually have firm conclusions. I'd want to know how any levels of anything compares to when I turn on my clothes dryer, tobacco, microwave, vacuum cleaner, etc..
For me, and just for me, if we're truly in a 5% range ("95% less harmful"?), then I honestly don't care a whole lot what is found. If we're backed out at 50%, then I may have to make a decision to quit, which will clearly be much easier now than when I was smoking (tested & confirmed, vaping ROCKS!).
Outside of all that though, a lot of this still feels a lot like...
For me, and just for me, if we're truly in a 5% range ("95% less harmful"?), then I honestly don't care a whole lot what is found. If we're backed out at 50%, then I may have to make a decision to quit, which will clearly be much easier now than when I was smoking (tested & confirmed, vaping ROCKS!).
Outside of all that though, a lot of this still feels a lot like...
I wouldn't care to be the donkey, OR the person pinning it. Somehow, wrapping one's kid head up like a mummy, spinning said kid around and then heading it off in whatever direction with a pin in hand just never seemed to smart to me, and there were usually unexpected results. SO glad that phase of my life is over, I did a few too many "at home" birthdays, we had this huge book of 250 party games.
Some of them were fun, but never PTTD. Also, I think the water balloons fight on the trampoline was retrospectively not such a good idea, although no one got hurt. WAIT! It was a FANTASTIC idea, just like BB guns. If no one ever almost loses an eye, how with the Khicldren Lern?
But, best of luck with your, ah, targets Mike, I'm sure it cannot be easy.
Anna
Some of them were fun, but never PTTD.
Also, I think the water balloons fight on the trampoline was retrospectively not such a good idea, although no one got hurt. WAIT! It was a FANTASTIC idea, just like BB guns. If no one ever almost loses an eye, how with the Khicldren Lern? But, best of luck with your, ah, targets Mike, I'm sure it cannot be easy.
Anna
I totally understand. But if you find results that hold up to scrutiny against their work, it provides a lot of credibility for both. TBH, I'd never rely on a single researcher or study to establish credibility and utility of those findings. Your work is useful, not performed in vain.
It's also more readily available to us at ECF, Mike. Honestly, I would have had NO interest in TC mode were it not for reading this thread, and I'm thrilled to say I finally have a build that I got there with it. So, no, your work is not in vain, though it's unfortunate that some folks are being, hoarders, maybe? about their own findings. Seriously, focus on the good you've done here, you have done great stuff on a shoestring budget. That's nothing to sneeze at, and you personally help ME to get to a safer vape, at least some of the time, so *I* gotta say thank you, very seriously, for the hard work you do.
Anna
Anna
I use stainless wire exclusively and almost always in temp limiting mode (tc only limits max temp, not "control" it).. I can switch from tc to power mode and back and find no difference at my 16 watt power setting as long as the 1.3 ohm 30 gauge coil is saturated in my rda. Most of my puffs after re-dripping are well below my 380 F temp limit. I re drip when the temp limit starts hitting and watts fall below 16. The juice well is dry at that point and all the liquid is in the wick. I get the vapor quality and throat hit I prefer.
I expect that a lot of vapers are vaping at lower temperatures than they realize but won't have first hand evidence unless they have the fortitude to switch to stainless wire and experiment. You may already be vaping well below 420 F and don't know it.
I expect that a lot of vapers are vaping at lower temperatures than they realize but won't have first hand evidence unless they have the fortitude to switch to stainless wire and experiment. You may already be vaping well below 420 F and don't know it.
This thread has got me worried now. Can't read the whole thing. Did we reach any conclusions about the whole thing? Is it one where I don't have to discard my recently bought istick basic and buy an istick pico to use TC while out?
To me, TC is a goal to shoot for some of the time, and I doubt I'll ever not use my titanium Kabuki for out and about, as I don't like the idea of wicking or refilling RTAs on the go. So, no, I don't think you need to run out and buy all TC capable devices that exist, but when you get around to it there is nothing wrong with trying an RTA and your own coils (or buying drop in TC coils, which can be harder to find) but it's not as if vaping non-TC is going to fell you immediately (if at all).
This thread taught me some best practices for non-TC vaping though. Don't chain vape too much, temperatures in your tank can rise. Use lowest wattage possible (I was on board with this already, I like a cool vape) and that type of stuff. I do enjoy using TC mode but I won't be using it all the time, most likely, though I'm glad that I'm ABLE to do it. But no, you don't need to freak out immediately and replace all your vaping gear.
Anna
This thread taught me some best practices for non-TC vaping though. Don't chain vape too much, temperatures in your tank can rise. Use lowest wattage possible (I was on board with this already, I like a cool vape) and that type of stuff. I do enjoy using TC mode but I won't be using it all the time, most likely, though I'm glad that I'm ABLE to do it. But no, you don't need to freak out immediately and replace all your vaping gear.
Anna
One man's this is another man's that.
If not for our regulatory monster, I'd not even be messing with cotton or wires. Blister packs would have taken me to the grave, and I'd have been one very happy camper. I just want to vape, and need (needed) no new hobbies.
Did I hear Zen somewhere in there too (Limit vs. Control)?
@Mohid - change it if you want to, but if you're happy, just don't light it on fire before taking a hit. Smoke is bad.
Look at my blog for some good concise info.
I am testing for formaldehyde now.
Dont panic, dont smoke, vape on while I get more concrete data.
We have pro-vaping and anti-vaping research; we cannot rely on any.
Now we have manufacturer research; I never take one seriously.
Nobody is going to make a research for vapers, to address their concerns. Who will fund it? Nobody will, at least till vaping became a respectable (for society) thing.
Now we have manufacturer research; I never take one seriously.
Nobody is going to make a research for vapers, to address their concerns. Who will fund it? Nobody will, at least till vaping became a respectable (for society) thing.
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