New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Lessifer]

A reference measuring wire temp over a specified duration on a saturated coil for various coil wire diameters and coil diameters at a range of power levels would sure be useful. I hope someone has the time, materials and knowledge to do so, and soon!

For it to be truly useful it would also need a range of airflow and chamber size variables too. Just to give an example, a 1 ohm 28g K 2mm inner diameter coil will vape very differently in the chamber of a kayfun than it will on the deck of 24mm rda with 6 1mm air holes open, or with 2 of the 6 1mm air holes open.

TC can definitely help by keeping you under a certain temperature(if it works properly) no matter what the other variables are. I kind of see that like having an oven that won't go above 350F. You can keep your food from burning, even if you cook at 450F, if you know what you're doing and you pay attention.

 

[oplholik]

I hope my post here doesn't take this thread too far off course.
I have just started reading this thread, and find it interesting. I'ts pretty much over my head, and I'm not a TC user, and I doubt I ever will be. I just can't see selling off all my mods and re stocking with TC mods. That being said, I do now have a curiosity as to just what temp range I'm vaping in. My builds range from 1.3 to 2.5Ω's depending on whether it's a tank on a VW device or a Mechanical squonker. I use 30g Kanthal 2.0mm dia. coils On my VW mods I vape around 10watts. I do have one tc mod, a Pico, but I use it in Watts mode.
Now I'm wanting to do an experiment to get a rough idea of my temp range, and I assume it would be a very rough idea. I want to use my build in my Pico, set to TC mode, and find what temp best matches what I'm used to. This is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. As I said, I believe this would be a very rough gauge as to what temp range I'm in.
Now for a couple questions. Can I use Kanthal, or do I need to get some NI wire? If I need NI, which do I get, N20,40,60,70, or 80?
Thanks for reading this, I appreciate any input.

 

[Dubminer]

A reference measuring wire temp over a specified duration on a saturated coil for various coil wire diameters and coil diameters at a range of power levels would sure be useful. I hope someone has the time, materials and knowledge to do so, and soon!

That would be impossible with all the different airflows,because every slight difference would effect the wire temperature.The only way to do this is TC.

 

[mikepetro]

I haven't seen anyone argue that TC is bad, or that it isn't important to keep your vape from hitting the temperatures where emissions spike, the argument that I've seen is against the thought that TC is the only means of accomplishing this.

I am probably from that camp. I am an Instrument Tech by profession. I measure, and control, variables like temp, ph, level, flow, pressure, etc. It has been my experience that one cant truly control something unless you actually measure it.

I agree, that some "experienced" vapers may know the difference by taste alone. But how trustworthy are those calibrated tongues? Look at the CE4 example, it creates toxins at ANY power level. Yet many people are getting a satisfying vape out of them, those people would tell you their vape is just fine. I agree that for temp sensing wire one can go on SteamEngine and calculate a given coils temp at 4.2v. But neither of these methods give you that warm fuzzy of "knowing" that you are below 470F.

You can only truly control what is measured......

 

[beckdg]

but even tootle puffers try to stay informed!

It's not you, darling.

We catch flack all the time for some ridiculous, ill informed reasons from the TP mafia folks.

While some (like yourself) are fine, upstanding individuals and a pure pleasure to deal with.

Thank you (and many others) for that.

Tapatyped

 

[englishmick]

A reference measuring wire temp over a specified duration on a saturated coil for various coil wire diameters and coil diameters at a range of power levels would sure be useful. I hope someone has the time, materials and knowledge to do so, and soon!

That would be nice. I don't know whether this research is going to turn out to be correct, but my first take is that I should pay attention. I would like to know what temp I'm reaching on the tanks and power level I'm using. Since I only use Kanthal that won't be easy. I'm thinking I need to get one of those mods that can supposedly measure temp on Kanthal (Cloupor), and use it to get a feel for what temp I'm currently vaping at.

I think I might start using a bit more PG and upping the nic level to reduce my juice consumption though. I gave up diketones on a lot less evidence than this one.

I'm not personally too worried though. I'm old with messed up lungs and my lifespan is mostly already determined.

 

[mikepetro]

Been searching most of the morning trying to find something with kanthal which is my preferred wire and haven't found anything useful yet.

Kanthal does not have a wide TCR to measure temp. Even the hexohm relies on human calibration by taste to achieve TC on kanthal.

I have tried putting a thermocouple alongside a coil to measure temp, but that had a ton of challenges, not the least of which was modifying the atty to accommodate it.

 

[Bonskibon]

I hope my post here doesn't take this thread too far off course.
I have just started reading this thread, and find it interesting. I'ts pretty much over my head, and I'm not a TC user, and I doubt I ever will be. I just can't see selling off all my mods and re stocking with TC mods. That being said, I do now have a curiosity as to just what temp range I'm vaping in. My builds range from 1.3 to 2.5Ω's depending on whether it's a tank on a VW device or a Mechanical squonker. I use 30g Kanthal 2.0mm dia. coils On my VW mods I vape around 10watts. I do have one tc mod, a Pico, but I use it in Watts mode.
Now I'm wanting to do an experiment to get a rough idea of my temp range, and I assume it would be a very rough idea. I want to use my build in my Pico, set to TC mode, and find what temp best matches what I'm used to. This is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. As I said, I believe this would be a very rough gauge as to what temp range I'm in.
Now for a couple questions. Can I use Kanthal, or do I need to get some NI wire? If I need NI, which do I get, N20,40,60,70, or 80?
Thanks for reading this, I appreciate any input.

Thought of that already myself, but using any other wire other than kanthal (that I also use) is going to change everything. I would like to know the temp myself with 28g kanthal 2.5mm at 12 watts is giving me, but can't think of any way to test it. I almost used a meat thermometer that is digital with a METAL probe to hold on my coil while firing it, but stopped myself.

 

[Bonskibon]

Kanthal does not have a wide TCR to measure temp. Even the hexohm relies on human calibration by taste to achieve TC on kanthal.

I have tried putting a thermocouple alongside a coil to measure temp, but that had a ton of challenges, not the least of which was modifying the atty to accommodate it.

OK, I have no idea what you just said, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[puffon]

I hope my post here doesn't take this thread too far off course.
I have just started reading this thread, and find it interesting. I'ts pretty much over my head, and I'm not a TC user, and I doubt I ever will be. I just can't see selling off all my mods and re stocking with TC mods. That being said, I do now have a curiosity as to just what temp range I'm vaping in. My builds range from 1.3 to 2.5Ω's depending on whether it's a tank on a VW device or a Mechanical squonker. I use 30g Kanthal 2.0mm dia. coils On my VW mods I vape around 10watts. I do have one tc mod, a Pico, but I use it in Watts mode.
Now I'm wanting to do an experiment to get a rough idea of my temp range, and I assume it would be a very rough idea. I want to use my build in my Pico, set to TC mode, and find what temp best matches what I'm used to. This is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. As I said, I believe this would be a very rough gauge as to what temp range I'm in.
Now for a couple questions. Can I use Kanthal, or do I need to get some NI wire? If I need NI, which do I get, N20,40,60,70, or 80?
Thanks for reading this, I appreciate any input.

You would want to use Ni200 if you went with nickle.
I would just get SS, as it could be used in TC or Wattage.

 

[Lessifer]

I am probably from that camp. I am an Instrument Tech by profession. I measure, and control, variables like temp, ph, level, flow, pressure, etc. It has been my experience that one cant truly control something unless you actually measure it.

I agree, that some "experienced" vapers may know the difference by taste alone. But how trustworthy are those calibrated tongues? Look at the CE4 example, it creates toxins at ANY power level. Yet many people are getting a satisfying vape out of them, those people would tell you their vape is just fine. I agree that for temp sensing wire one can go on SteamEngine and calculate a given coils temp at 4.2v. But neither of these methods give you that warm fuzzy of "knowing" that you are below 470F.

You can only truly control what is measured......

Have you ever cooked anything on a stove? Do you know the exact temperature of the pan when you set the flame to medium? There are other forms of measurement.

You're treating this like a vape is different every time you pick it up. If you dial in a good vape on a particular coil, and you're vaping it at a set power level, it's going to be that way every time you use it unless something goes wrong with your wicking.

As for the CE4s, I really wish that chart you've posted a few times gave the puff duration. The temp doesn't breach the "safe" level until the end of the puff, according to the arc. So maybe we should be telling people not to take 10s pulls. Or if they aren't satisfied unless they take a 10s pull, perhaps they should look for an upgrade.

 

[Fozzy71]

Been searching most of the morning trying to find something with kanthal which is my preferred wire and haven't found anything useful yet.

It would probably be far easier to get a mod like the hohm tech g2 or slice that can do TC on kanthal, or find a tc wire build for your tank to use that is similar ohms to what you are used to if you are concerned by this data/thread. You may find though you need to lower your ohms and maybe increase your watts in tc mode using different wire types to get a similar vaping experience using tc.

I hope my post here doesn't take this thread too far off course.
I have just started reading this thread, and find it interesting. I'ts pretty much over my head, and I'm not a TC user, and I doubt I ever will be. I just can't see selling off all my mods and re stocking with TC mods. That being said, I do now have a curiosity as to just what temp range I'm vaping in. My builds range from 1.3 to 2.5Ω's depending on whether it's a tank on a VW device or a Mechanical squonker. I use 30g Kanthal 2.0mm dia. coils On my VW mods I vape around 10watts. I do have one tc mod, a Pico, but I use it in Watts mode.
Now I'm wanting to do an experiment to get a rough idea of my temp range, and I assume it would be a very rough idea. I want to use my build in my Pico, set to TC mode, and find what temp best matches what I'm used to. This is the only way I can think of to accomplish this. As I said, I believe this would be a very rough gauge as to what temp range I'm in.
Now for a couple questions. Can I use Kanthal, or do I need to get some NI wire? If I need NI, which do I get, N20,40,60,70, or 80?
Thanks for reading this, I appreciate any input.

A pico can't do tc on kanthal. ss, ni or ti only. I have only used ss so I can't comment on the ni question.

 

[englishmick]

I agree that for temp sensing wire one can go on SteamEngine and calculate a given coils temp at 4.2v.

Does this work for Kanthal?

But neither of these methods give you that warm fuzzy of "knowing" that you are below 470F.

You can only truly control what is measured......

True, but something is better than nothing.

 

[Bonskibon]

It would probably be far easier to get a mod like the hohm tech g2 or slice that can do TC on kanthal, or find a tc wire build for your tank to use that is similar ohms to what you are used to if you are concerned by this data/thread. You may find though you need to lower your ohms and maybe increase your watts in tc mode using different wire types to get a similar vaping experience using tc.

Playing around with that idea in my head already.

 

[440BB]

If actually measuring coil temp under various real world circumstances was easy we wouldn't have the current estimation methods in use and would have much better information by now. At one time Innokin claimed they were going to have such a technology but I haven't seen it.

 

[NU_FTW]

Thought of that already myself, but using any other wire other than kanthal (that I also use) is going to change everything. I would like to know the temp myself with 28g kanthal 2.5mm at 12 watts is giving me, but can't think of any way to test it. I almost used a meat thermometer that is digital with a METAL probe to hold on my coil while firing it, but stopped myself.

you could attempt an ir thermometer but you would have to not have top of atty on so you would not be getting airflow and may not get actual temp from the vapor envelope around coil

 

[Bonskibon]

you could attempt an ir thermometer but you would have to not have top of atty on so you would not be getting airflow and may not get actual temp from the vapor envelope around coil

Good point.

 

[mikepetro]

Does this work for Kanthal?

No, SteamEngine doesn't show theoretical temps for kanthal.

 

[mikepetro]

you could attempt an ir thermometer but you would have to not have top of atty on so you would not be getting airflow and may not get actual temp from the vapor envelope around coil

I tried an infrared camera, but there was no way to simulate the closed chamber and it airflow.

 

[SlickWilly]

You can only lead them to the water Mike.

Have you ever cooked anything on a stove? Do you know the exact temperature of the pan when you set the flame to medium? There are other forms of measurement.

You're treating this like a vape is different every time you pick it up. If you dial in a good vape on a particular coil, and you're vaping it at a set power level, it's going to be that way every time you use it unless something goes wrong with your wicking.

As for the CE4s, I really wish that chart you've posted a few times gave the puff duration. The temp doesn't breach the "safe" level until the end of the puff, according to the arc. So maybe we should be telling people not to take 10s pulls. Or if they aren't satisfied unless they take a 10s pull, perhaps they should look for an upgrade.

Again, watch the video in the second post where Kurt presented this data chart and talks about it. As he said, CE4's are unsafe at ANY level.