LMAO equally helpful and informative though!OMG! I think that (^^^^) was my shortest post yet!! No. Wait. This one is!!!(I amuse myself!
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New to flavorings... advice, best brands, ect.
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How do you guys wash the bottles and such? I'm looking at getting a baby bottle drying rack, but is there a better way than washing by hand and drying on a baby bottle drying rack??
If they have already been used for e-liquid... just a rinse in hot tap water; and then shake out as much water as I can, then leave them up right to air dry. If they are brand new, and if I am concerned with manufacturing residue; a SMALL amount of Dawn dish soap, thorough rinse, and dry as previously mentioned.
In a pinch, you can put the empty bottle in the microwave for 10 seconds, or so, and the few drops of water will boil off. Or, I have even been known to mix, leaving the bit of water in the bottle. I have never noticed any impact from that tiny amount of water.
I see no need for a drying rack, but if it makes you happy, go for it!
In a pinch, you can put the empty bottle in the microwave for 10 seconds, or so, and the few drops of water will boil off. Or, I have even been known to mix, leaving the bit of water in the bottle. I have never noticed any impact from that tiny amount of water.
I see no need for a drying rack, but if it makes you happy, go for it!
Whatever works for ME, right? lolI see no need for a drying rack, but if it makes you happy, go for it!
Thank you! That's good to know it's not going to be near as complicated as I thought lol. I have several bottles (as I said before, I tend to hoard my empty juice bottles lol), some still have a tiny bit of juice left in them that I will leave in there bc they're flavors I use already to mix with others, but there were some I soaked in hot water and am letting them dry now. I wondered if it'd make a difference if there was still a tiny bit of water left in them, so thank you for answering that for me lol.
PS I really have no need to buy bottles for DIYing bc heaven knows I have PLENTY lol... maybe a few small bottles, but I'm covered when it comes to 30-60ml bottles!
Atta Girl! Now you are catching on!
Some DIYers will intentionally leave +/-10% of the previous batch in the bottle before refilling it (with the same recipe) because they find it shortens the required aging time significantly. Of course, this is a moot point, if the recipe requires little to no aging. (I believe the general consensus is, that you can do this 4-5 times, before rinsing out the bottle and starting over. Though I couldn't tell you the last time I rinsed out my unflavored base bottle.
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Though I couldn't tell you the last time I rinsed out my unflavored base bottle.
Ugh, that'll probably be me lol. How unsanitary! hehe
LMAO there ya go!Anything able to grow in that, and I'll take `em out, and buy `em a drink!
Someone told me the other day that you don't want to use more than 6mls of flavoring in a 30ml batch (24ml base). That sounds like a lot to me actually, but I have no idea lol. What are your thoughts on that?
So... Would I be TOTALLY annoying if I listed some flavors I'm thinking I would want/need and then the end result I'm looking for and get some suggestions? Is that being too needy? lol
This is yet another area of personal preference to my understanding. A couple of years ago, in my early days of mixing, there was more discussion about this subject. There seemed to be two (I am being VERY simple/general here) schools of thought; High Flavor Mixers (aka: HFM), and Low Flavor Mixers (aka: LFM). What was considered "high" and what was considered "low" was wide open to interpretation (some considered 10% "low" while others considered 8% "high." So create a definition that works for you!
).However you define it; the general rationalizations for each, was something like this (again, I am painting with the broadest brush, AND I am limited by my own understanding
):HFMs preferred this method because they felt it gave them a faster, more stable, more flavorful, vape.
LFMs preferred this method because they felt it gave them a truer, less forced, more cost-effective, vape that would not run the risk of flavor loss due to over-flavoring.
One of the big proponents of the HFM style (at least here on ECF) was @Bill's Magic Vapor. He wrote a rather good explanation of why he prefers (preferred?) this method; and you can find an archivedcopy of this post here: Want to Reduce Steep Time - Try High Flavor Percentages at Time of Mix | E-Cigarette Forum
Note: You will need to click on the "click to expand..." tab in order to see his discussion. It will look something like this:
Also note; this was taken from a reply, to a reply, to a question {3 people in other words} so Bill's actual response doesn't begin until his fist sentence:
and then, he doesn't address HFM until the final 3 paragraphs. He discusses it again in another blog on using his 100 drop test method here: Using Bill's 100DT Taste Test Method | E-Cigarette Forum
This might even be a better explanation for his "Why's." Pertinent discussion begins with the paragraph that starts:
Now, with all that as a basis for HFM, it is important to keep in mind, that:
- This is one person's preference (though many share/shared it)
- Bill defined/mixed HFM between 20-35%
- This person was mixing for use in older equipment
- He was using a Tiafun tank, single coil, 1.4 ohm resistance, vaped at 11 watts
- equipment has changed A LOT
- Multiple coils
- lower resistance (ohms)
- Higher power (wattage)
- greater airflow
- wicking materials and methods
- coil materials
- temperature control
- etc.
- He used ONLY TFA flavor concentrates (by choice; with very few exceptions)
It is only my personal opinion; but I feel that the newer (multi-coil, lower resistance, higher power) equipment does not support HFM.
My personal experience backs this up. As a new mixer, I found Bill's thoughts and explanations, satisfied my personal need for "logic," and adopted them for my own use, with success. As I gained more experience, tried other's recipes, tried other flavor mfgs., and changed equipment; I found HFM less... necessary(?), satisfying(?), and just naturally "evolved" into a LFM mixer. Nowadays; I use recipes using no flavor, 3% total flavor, up to a couple that are still near 20% total flavoring... it just depends.
I found that certain flavors (like Bavarian Cream) just required time, no matter what percentage was used, before I cared for them. And with that time; the HFM recipes fell out of balance. But that is just me.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" answer to how much is too much. I think it really comes down to: What the recipe is; what ingredients you are using; what your expectations are; what equipment you will be using it on; and what your own taste buds are telling you (does it taste good; or not?). If a particular flavor, or recipe tastes best to you at 2%, or 10%, or even 40% (though I can't envision that
), then that is what you should vape it at. But, the ONLY way you are going to KNOW, is by experimenting.I will also say, that beyond the issue of taste, there are two other strong arguments for using as little flavor as needed to taste good. 1) Cost: flavor concentrates can often exceed even the cost of nicotine in a recipe, and therefore can contribute the greatest expense. If you are on a budget, and you want to get "the best bang for your buck," it behooves you to use as little flavoring as required to taste good to you. 2) Safety: flavor concentrates contain the greatest quantity of unknown, and undisclosed, "stuff;" and, if you are vaping to be "healthier," then it makes sense to use as little as required. But again; this really comes down to personal choices.
Not at all! That sounds reasonable; fire away!!
YAY! lol Ok... (can you tell I'm excited to get this part started?!?!)Not at all! That sounds reasonable; fire away!!
I figured for my 'starter/start up' I would want to have:
Caramel - Butterscotch - Cappuccino/Sweet Coffee - Cookie/Cake - Cream/Sweet Cream - Marshmallow - Cinnamon (Bakery) - Brown Sugar - Blueberry - Strawberry - Banana - Pineapple
I like sweeter flavors, so I was thinking of going sweeter vs more tart on the fruits.
I'd like to make:
A butterscotch/caramel cookie/cake (similar to, but less sweet than my Mr. Cookie lol) - Caramel cappuccino/sweet coffee - Strawberry & Blueberry blend (the one I mix right now, with premade juice, is mixed with a tiny bit of bakery cinnamon juice and it's SO good!) - A creamy Strawberry, Banana & Pineapple blend. I want to do a pina colada, but apparently I can't do coconut, which is one of my FAVORITE flavors! Just figured that one out!
I am going to start working on my recommendation list for your flavors (hopefully other will chime in too; as we don't even know if you & I have similar palates) but I have a couple of questions first.
Why no coconut; are you having a physical reaction to it, or you just don't like any you have tried?
What is your criteria for suggested flavors? What is most important to you? Best taste, OR lowest cost, OR safer choice (some flavors have things some vapers prefer to avoid: like Diketones, Acetoin, Acetylpropionyl, & Fructose)? Usually you get one, occasionally two, but almost never all three. If I know what is most important to you I will try to weight my suggestions to you with "that" as the priority.
It's seems like it's been just you and I! lol
I wish I didn't like the ones I've tried! I LOVE the coconut flavors/juices I've tried! I found this juice that I LOVE, but I was getting this weird burn in my throat and a tightness in my chest, I thought it was bc the PG was a little higher than I normally use so I had the store I bought it from add more VG to it, the feeling lessened, but not much. I chalked it up to something just not right with the juice (even though it's a well known brand with no complaints... but leave it to me!). I went about my business and decided to buy another bottle of a banana coconut juice that I enjoyed before switching to subohm, but again I was getting that same feeling. The only common denominator was the coconut. Also tried coconut on it's own, a natural line from another company! Hopefully it won't kill me bc I still mix a tiny bit of the banana coconut in my current juice mix lol... luckily it only takes a little to get the flavor I'm going for!
I know I can't have diacetyl, I got juice with that in it and I thought my chest was going to explode! I have an unconfirmed/undiagnosed heart issue (they think it's SVT, but my insurance wouldn't cover the heart monitor the cardiologist needed me to use for a month... go figure)! Don't get me started on the stupid insurance fiasco happening right now lol. Anyway... I don't have a clue how much diacetyl was in the juice I got back then, that was before the information started coming out about it, so I had no idea that's what it was at the time. So I'm not sure if there's a 'safe' amount for me and I don't know if there's other stuff out there that's similar, but I do know I haven't really had any issues otherwise, until the PG sensitivity and the Coconut debacle. Wow... look at me, I'm turning into you with my long winded answers! LMAO just kidding! Flavor is a big thing, I've always liked, well needed, stronger juices, but that was before subohming. I feel I'm getting plenty of flavor from juices now, that I wasn't getting before. And then there's cost... Hopefully I'll already be saving a ton by DIYing, so I'm thinking 1) Safety first 2) Flavor 3) Cost (although, I am poor, but the others are more important lol).
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I guess nobody wants to wade through my long-winded orations.
... Ouch! Okay... that was funny!
Mom always said "They can't hurt ya with the truth. They can shame ya; but they can't hurt ya."
On to the next soliloquy:
My thoughts (hopefully some others will come along and share theirs
):FLAVORS WANTED (based on safety 1st, flavor 2nd, and cost 3rd):
(No suggested flavors contain REPORTED diacetyl to the best of my knowledge; research and decide for yourself to be sure. My use of the phrase “safer choice” is merely used to denote I could find no references to diketones, diacetyl, acetoin, or acetyl propionyl (aka: DDAAP) and is not intended to suggest these are any safer than any other ingredient vaped. Again; please do your own research and come to your own decisions.)
- Caramel
- Caramel (FA): Good all-around caramel. Not as strong/dominating as some; plays well with other flavors. Safer choice.
- Butterscotch
- Butterscotch Natural (FW): FW's “safer” offering. Good popular flavor (though a bit weak to some).
- Cappuccino and/or Sweet Coffee
- I surrender on this one; the more I read, the less confident I became. This might be one to make on your own (coffee/espresso, sweetener, and cream, to your taste). One Stop DIY Shop (OSDIYS) does make a single (though complex) flavor called Lotta Latte that is very popular with @JCinFLA, and others. It does have additional notes you did not specify; namely vanilla, and caramel. I don't know the “safety” of their in-house concoctions.
- Cookie
- Biscuit (INW): (not to be confused with their Spicy Biscuit which has additional spice notes) This is my hands-down starting point for any “cookie” note I may want to add. This is a rich, buttery, shortbread-like cookie. Safer choice.
- Cookie (FA): This is more nutty, and doughy, than INW Biscuit. Safer choice.
- Sugar Cookie V2: Good all-around mildly sweet cookie (though not as complex as INW Biscuit). V2s are CAP's “safer” formulations and this is a suitable substitute for their regular Sugar Cookie.
- Cake
- Yellow Cake (FW): I list this first because it is the undisputed “king of cakes.” It is moist, rich, sweet, and fluffy. But it also contains Fructose. Fructose is a known coil-killer (foil gunker) and some don't like the additional risk of vaping a sugar darivative. Aside from the fructose; this appears to be a “safer” choice.
- Yellow Cake (CAP): This is a fairly new offering from CAP. I have used a bit of it to date, but I would not call my experience thorough. My currant perception is this is a pretty good substitute for FW's Yellow Cake; the flavor profile is close, but lacks the sweet moistness of FW's. CAP's Yellow Cake does NOT contain fructose and is a safer choice.
- There are TONS of other cakes offered out there (batter, white, chocolate, red velvet, sponge, and cupcakes galore) that I have not tried. If the two above don't appeal to you; don't give up the search.
- Cream and/or Sweet Cream
- Fresh Cream (FA): Just like the name implies; fresh, light, not really sweet, CREAM. This is a must have in any DIYer's kit (in my mind), This is a safer choice.
- Vienna Cream (FA): Rich, heavy, sweet, cream with a touch of vanilla. Do NOT use above 3% or may impart unpleasant “sharp” notes. Safer choice.
- Sweet Cream (CAP): The name says it all; it is a sweet liquid cream (not to be confused with “whipped”). Falls between FA's Fresh, and Vienna. Safer choice.
- Vanilla Whipped Cream (CAP): If you are wanting a true sweet “whipped” cream effect; this is the one. It is sweet, with a gentle touch of vanilla, and a light/fluffy body that adds volume without adding density. Safer choice.
- Marshmallow
- Marshmallow (FA): This is a good basic “marshmallow.: Substitutes easily for TFA, CAP, and FW versions without major adjustments. Safer choice.
- Cinnamon (bakery)
- Cinnamon Ceylon (FA): Best “bakery” cinnamon out there. Just like the powdered spice it is named for; no candy notes or sweetness. Use with a light hand; I would start at 0.5-1.0% and adjust from there. Safer choice.
- Cinnamon Spice (TFA): This is a distant second to FA's Cinnamon Ceylon; but if I couldn't get the Ceylon, this would be my second choice. Safer choice.
- Brown Sugar
- Brown Sugar DX (TFA): Wins this by default. It (and its twin: Brown Sugar Extra... NOT a safer choice) are the only main-stream ones (aside from FW's; which is hard to find) that I see used. It is just as implied; a light brown sugar with only a suggestion of molasses. The DX version is a safer choice.
- Blueberry
- This is another difficult one for me. I have only used TFA's Blueberry Extra, and Blueberry Wild, and I wasn't impressed with either. On my “want to try someday” list is:
- Blueberry Jam (CAP): I have read some very favorable things, on ECF, about this flavor. It is supposed to be a sweeter, more jammy representation of the fruit. Safer choice.
- Bilberry (FA): This is probably the single most popular “blueberry-like” flavor I see recommended. The bilberry is the European continent's equivalent to the American blueberry; but with a bit more of a “sweet and sour” contrast. Safer choice.
- Strawberry
- Red Touch (Strawberry)(FA): This one is closest to the fresh picked berry from the bush (especially fresh; tends to “jam” a bit after a week. If I could only have one strawberry in my kit; this would be it. Safer choice.
- Sweet Strawberry (CAP): This is a good one for blending with other strawberry concentrates. It adds sweetness and can soften any “off” notes. It is a bit more “artificial” compared to FA Red Touch, but it is worthy of a spot in my kit. Safer choice.
- Strawberry (Ripe)(TFA): This is a good blender. It is not really an “authentic” strawberry per se, but it fits a nitch. 3% TFA Strawberry Ripe to 2% CAP Sweet Strawberry is a classic combo. Strawberry Ripe is called for in a LOT of recipes so it is good to have on hand. Safer choice.
- Strawberry (TFA): I waffled on whether to include this one on my list. It is probably the one I reach for the least of the four listed here; but it does have its fan following. Those that like it; say that it is the more “authentic” of the two TFA strawberry offerings, but I never really noticed much of a difference. This too is a safer choice.
- Banana
- Another tough one. The banana I reach for most is TFA Banana Cream; but it does not meet your safety criteria. And it is not a strong “keeper” for me either. Some others that I am considering (but have not yet tried), AND fit your criteria are:
- Banana (FA): Lots of good reviews; though there seems to be a wide range of opinion on its strength. Some say it is quite potent while others say it is a bit on the weak side. Most agree it is fairly authentic. Safer choice.
- Banana (HS): Not particularly popular (I think due to its limited accessibility) but everything I have read is positive. Another fairly realistic banana. Safer choice.
- Banana Cream (LA): This looks like a good substitute for the TFA Banana Cream. Described as a good all-around banana with cream mixer; not overly realistic, but not too cany-like either. Buy from Bull City Flavors to make sure you are getting the colorless version. Safer choice.
- Pineapple
- Pineapple (Ananas)(INW): Best pineapple I have tried so far. Great interpretation of fresh cut pineapple while keeping the acidity in check. Easy (not temperamental) to mix with. This is a solid choice and if I could never try another pineapple I could be content. Safer choice.
- Golden Pineapple (CAP): I have not yet tried this one. Its popularity has been really taking off lately and I may just have to play “lemming” and give it a try. All reviews, and comments, seem to be glowing. The only negative that I have seen so far is that a few report it can be a bit difficult to find a consistent sweet spot. It is described as fresh, realistic, and sweet. Safer choice.
- Sea Buckthorn (TFA): This deserves “Honorable Mention” status as it is the only “pineapple-like” concentrate that offers a true tart pineapple taste without the acid. I used this a lot in my early mixing days; to balance out the canned/candy sweet pineapples that were then on the market. INW Pineapple has made it unnecessary for me now; but I still have a sweet spot in my heart for this one, and it still remains in a mix, or two, of mine. The bad thing is; I have only found it at Wizard labs (8mL only), and TFA wholesale home page (gallon only).
- Pina Colada
- Pinacolada (INW): I know you said that coconut was not being your friend; BUT if you decide to try again, this needs to be at the top of your list. Great pineapple-to-coconut balance with a hint of cream. Good as a stand-alone. Safer choice.
Whew! I think I covered it (as best I could). Please, just keep in mind, these are the directions I would go. They may,or may not, work for you. Order minimum quantities until you see what you think. Other's suggestions/recommendations are every bit as valid as mine; and deserve equal consideration (they can probably just say it in a lot fewer words!
). Sadly, there is no real way of knowing..., until you try them for your self.The one thing I didn't see on your list, and that may only be because you are taking it as a given, is a straight sweetener. I do recommend trying a new mix without sweetener first (many concentrates can fill the gap; and there is no need for additional sweetening); but when it is required, there is little else than will do.
The two classics are TFA Sweetener, and CAP Super Sweet. Both are the same thing (sucralose); the CAP is just twice the concentration, so you use half as much.
If sucralose is a deal-breaker; then stevia (specifically made for vaping; like OSDIYS, or Nude Nicotine's offering. NOT the stuff on the grocery shelf.) works too. There are others as well; but I will try to refrain from bogging this down any further.
Abbreviations:
CAP = Capella
FA = Flavour Art
FW = Flavor West
HS = Hangsen
INW = Inawera
LA = LorAnn
OSDIYS = One Stop DIY Shop
TFA = The Flavor Apprentice (aka: TPA/The Perfumer's Apprentice{parent company}, Fa = Flavor Apprentice {and not to be confused with FA for Flavor Art})
LOL I like your long winded replies! They're thorough!
I actually had quite a few of those on my list, so I love that you've confirmed them! On the cappuccino, I did figure I'd have to mix it up, but I need to find a good base coffee flavor that's not too bitter or strong. I'll look into that one you suggested as well. I'll also get that Pina colada one, just in case bc I really LOVE the taste, that and tiger's blood! YUM!
I wasn't sure about the sweetener, so I'm really glad you mentioned it. I wasn't sure if my juices would be sweet on their own, but I totally get what you're saying, it's definitely a good idea to have some just in case. I haven't had the best luck with sweeteners in the past (I used to add it to my juices back in the day, I REALLY liked sweet juices lol), but I'm sure it was more about the quality of the sweetener I was using at that time.
Thank you again for taking the time to answer all my questions! I know I joked, but I really do enjoy the way you explain everything, it makes it so much easier for me to understand!
I actually had quite a few of those on my list, so I love that you've confirmed them! On the cappuccino, I did figure I'd have to mix it up, but I need to find a good base coffee flavor that's not too bitter or strong. I'll look into that one you suggested as well. I'll also get that Pina colada one, just in case bc I really LOVE the taste, that and tiger's blood! YUM!
I wasn't sure about the sweetener, so I'm really glad you mentioned it. I wasn't sure if my juices would be sweet on their own, but I totally get what you're saying, it's definitely a good idea to have some just in case. I haven't had the best luck with sweeteners in the past (I used to add it to my juices back in the day, I REALLY liked sweet juices lol), but I'm sure it was more about the quality of the sweetener I was using at that time.
Thank you again for taking the time to answer all my questions! I know I joked, but I really do enjoy the way you explain everything, it makes it so much easier for me to understand!
TFA's DX Banana Cream is what I use, because of this:
"DX Banana Cream Flavor
Water soluble
A diketone (Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl)-free version of our original Banana Cream!
A smooth flavor with a fresh, natural banana taste."
And you never will be (sure) until you try them without... first.
I am not sure it has to do with "quality," but rather, "quantity." Commercial e-liquid manufactures often do you high percentages of sweeteners in their recipes, because that is something al; most ALL vapers can taste, even those that still smoke (and can't taste diddly
).I think that many novice DIYers think "Well the big boys do it; I need to do it too." not realizing that their own recipes can, and often do, taste better with less, or even NO sweetener. But you never know unless you try.
I am glad it helps.
I started to DIY; to save money, and have access to flavors that I like. What I discovered was a new hobby.
You can read, and study, and research, until you are blue in the face; and it can certainly help to avoid making the learning curve any longer than necessary. But at some point you do have to finally jump on in and start mixing; there is just no way around it.
The most important thing we haven't yet talked about (in my mind) is having the right expectations. Most first time mixers do not produce a finished masterpiece. It may be "eh!," or it's OK...,", or "not bad," to "suprisingly good!." But it can also be "Nope; No Way!," and it helps A LOT, if you have already accepted that that is a possibility; and ANY of those are okay!
Early on; you mentioned you are a pretty good cook. Think about how good of a cook you might be; if I placed 3 mystery ingredients in front of you, and you had no idea what they were, or what they tasted like, and I then told you you have to make me something tasty in one try; AND you can not taste along the way. Chances are pretty even; that your result is going to be poor, mediocre, fair, or good.
That is what every new DIYer has to experience. Because, until you know what each ingredient tastes like (or can taste like), just like food, you will NOT know how to best use it (or if you should be trying to use it at all). Trial and error is the only way I know to build up a repertoire (or knowledge base). You are a good cook because you understand your ingredients. It simply is going to take time to develop your understanding for flavor concentrates (how they taste individually; and how they work together).
If you are willing to do that; then you will ultimately be successful.
The benefit of working with someone else's recipe; is that you at least have a reference point to how various flavors might work better/best together. In other words, a recipe can tell me if I use ingredient "A" at 4%, I want to use ingredient "B" at 2% (a 2:1 ratio). I try it and it is way too strong; I think it would taste better with only about half as much "A." Because the recipe tells me to use a 2:1 ratio; I know if I reduce "A" to 2%, I will also need to reduce "B" to 1% to maintain the 2:1 ratio.
When I create a recipe from scratch, I first have to figure out what the individual flavors taste like separately, and then I need to figure out how they work best together.
I am not saying you can't, or shouldn't, begin that way; only to set reasonable expectations for your self to learn, and understand what it is you are working with. For it is only through your own experience can you truly gain understanding. None of us can tell you what it is going to taste like to you. Keep your expectations reasonable, and don't count on perfection overnight, and you should be un good shape.
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