New to flavorings... advice, best brands, ect.

[go_player]

I haven't been around much lately, 'cause I've had a lot going on. But, as things die down a bit I'm reading again, and this is an interesting thread to me. There's a lot I'd like to respond to in it, but since I'm late to the party if I replied to everything I'd like to I'd wind up making IDJoel look like Calvin Coolidge. So I'll do my best to be brief- which in go_player-speak means I'm about to write a novella, rather than a novel... assuming I can restrain myself.

I know I can't have diacetyl, I got juice with that in it and I thought my chest was going to explode!...

Hopefully I'll alrady be saving a ton by DIYing, so I'm thinking 1) Safety first 2) Flavor 3) Cost (although, I am poor, but the others are more important lol).

I don't think there are a lot of flavors anymore that contain diacetyl proper (some of CAP's might be an exception- they don't publish all of their ingredients the way TPA/TFA does, but I'm pretty sure their MSDSs will at least list things like diacetyl and other diketones, so you can look that up if you want.) I've done some (admittedly layman's) research on the subject, and the conclusion I've come to is that I don't find diketones very scary, and am willing to vape them. YMMV as to how you feel about them from the point of view of safety.

That said, if they cause an acute reaction for you, of course they are going to wind up out of bounds for you, even if you don't think them a chronic hazard. I'd at least try a couple of flavors (in small, inexpensive amounts- GremlinDiy is a great place to get flavors you aren't sure you'll use, as they re-bottle in very small sizes) to make sure it is the diketones causing the reaction though. It could be a number of things, and avoiding all diketones, while very do-able, is going to limit your choices some. The sad fact of the matter is that diketones are pretty tasty.

There are diketone free versions of a number of staple flavors, like CAP's V2 flavors, and TFA's DX flavors. I don't have any of them, but what I hear is that they work out pretty well for some people, but _require_ a long steep. Other people just can't stand them, even after a steep. For most of the custards and creams the most important difference between the lines is that the diketones have been replaced with butyric acid. This is part of what gives butter its characteristic flavor, but is also part of what gives vomit its characteristic aroma. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that which you get more of from those flavors is going to have a lot to do with whether or not you like them.

It's worth noting that, at least as I understand it, none of FA's "vaping" line contain appreciable amounts of diketones. The "vaping line" is pretty much all you'll see on offer from most vendors- you have to work to get the really good flavors with diketones in them from FA . Anyway, FA is one of the better flavor makers, and you could put together a _lot_ of very good recipes using only FA flavors (waiting for my check now, FA.)

Which goes to your question about flavor makers. The truth is that they all have hits and misses. It's a good idea to read reviews of flavors (reddit is likely the best place to get single flavor tasting notes) before you buy. It's also a very good idea to make the smallest purchase you can when initially buying a flavor. There are flavors a lot of people love that taste like despair to me. Tastes differ even when it comes to food, etc., but the perception of flavor in vaping is actually quite a lot more individually idiosyncratic than it is when it comes to food, for reasons I think I am beginning to understand, but that I won't go into here.

So you shouldn't rule any maker out- I have some issues with Flavor West, for instance, and they are probably my least favorite of the big flavor companies, but I wouldn't want to be without their Blueberry (not sure if that warrants a check, but I'll take one if you're listening, FW.) That said, I'd consider FA, INW, and FLV to be the really premium makers of artificial flavors and Medicine Flower/Lotus is it's own story- amazing natural extracts, but too hard to work with for me to recommend them to someone just getting started.

I guess nobody wants to wade through my long-winded orations....

Well I liked them at least . Then again I have also been known to write at some length.

Here are some of my notes, and notes on your notes. Again, as you said about your notes, this is just what I think (in some places supplemented with what I take to be the consensus among experienced mixers.) I'm afraid I am going to make some of these recommendations without researching their diketone content though.

For caramel and butterscotch... well, I said I wouldn't recommend MF to a beginner, and I kind of stand by that, but they have very good ones. FW Butterscotch Ripple is a good one, though it likely has _all kinds_ of things you don't want (thanks based FW.) Actually, FW Caramel Candy is pretty good too, with the same proviso. I don't have a lot of experience with these profiles, so I'll leave it at that.

• Cappuccino and/or Sweet Coffee

Coffee is a difficult profile. I'd recommend starting with other flavors, tbh. If you're really _dedicated_ to having a coffee vape I have some notes, but I'd really suggest learning to mix with easier profiles first.

• Cookie
  • Biscuit (INW): (not to be confused with their Spicy Biscuit which has additional spice notes) This is my hands-down starting point for any “cookie” note I may want to add. This is a rich, buttery, shortbread-like cookie. Safer choice.
  • Cookie (FA): This is more nutty, and doughy, than INW Biscuit. Safer choice.
  • Sugar Cookie V2: Good all-around mildly sweet cookie (though not as complex as INW Biscuit). V2s are CAP's “safer” formulations and this is a suitable substitute for their regular Sugar Cookie.

Hard to argue with this. Be conservative with INW biscuit though. At higher percentages (by which I mean still pretty low percentages) I get a lot of off-notes from it, and at a certain point my sense of smell/taste just shuts down and all I get is texture and an unpleasant chemical taste- kind of like vaping wet cardboard dipped in paint thinner. This is especially true if I try to shake and vape it.

I find that a steep helps a lot with this. Here's: DIY Eliquid Recipes: All the Flavors something labelled Shake and Vape that I cannot vape at all even after three days (4% biscuit is nuts...) It turns out I like it a lot after a couple of weeks, though I can't vape too much of it at a time. Anyway, Biscuit is good, but should be mainly used, IMHO, as an accent at <2%. YPMV (I think substituting palate for milage there might be useful.)

I get some funny chemical notes from CAP Sugar Cookie v1, and I have to use it lower than many. This is actually true for me and a lot of CAP flavors. It's good, and if you don't get those notes I imagine it's great. It's super-popular, and I think most people would consider it _the_ go-to cookie flavor, especially if you want a soft, American-style cookie. V2 seems like it's a pretty good drop-in replacement, from what I've read, but it might require a longer steep.

I'm pretty new to FA Cookie, but I think I like it more than many do. It is quite dry compared to CAP's Sugar Cookie, with just a hint of a burnt edge. It's more a European Cookie than an American cookie, and it needs more help than CAP's, I think.

Note that there are some variations, like a cinnamon sugar cookie from CAP that I haven't tried.

• Cake
  • Yellow Cake (FW): I list this first because it is the undisputed “king of cakes.” It is moist, rich, sweet, and fluffy. But it also contains Fructose. Fructose is a known coil-killer (foil gunker) and some don't like the additional risk of vaping a sugar darivative. Aside from the fructose; this appears to be a “safer” choice.
  • Yellow Cake (CAP): This is a fairly new offering from CAP. I have used a bit of it to date, but I would not call my experience thorough. My currant perception is this is a pretty good substitute for FW's Yellow Cake; the flavor profile is close, but lacks the sweet moistness of FW's. CAP's Yellow Cake does NOT contain fructose and is a safer choice.
  • There are TONS of other cakes offered out there (batter, white, chocolate, red velvet, sponge, and cupcakes galore) that I have not tried. If the two above don't appeal to you; don't give up the search.

Yeah, FW's Yellow cake is the OG here, but... while I'm not very concerned about vaping diketones I am concerned about vaping the products of burning certain sugars. Also, coil gore. This is one of my issues with FW (especially their initial dishonesty about it, though they have gotten a lot more transparent since then.) FW Yellow Cake is the poster child for dodgy ingredients in flavors used for vaping, I'm afraid. I have this, but no longer use it (except on my birthday, and when drunk, which does cover a fair number of the days in the year...). I've heard that JF yellow cake is a pretty decent replacement for it though.

In the vein of Caky flavors though, I am going to have to put in a word for my current obsession: FA Zeppola. It's not a replacement for Yellow Cake (sorry, Saddam,) but it is probably my favorite bakery flavor. I have some trouble with bakeries, as I mentioned above... a lot of them are a bit chemically to me, especially befoe they steep. Not Zeppola.

When I was a small child my mother and I were very poor, and lived in what I can only describe now as a hovel in rural Southern Quebec. She was pretty capable, and grew a lot of our food, canned it, etc. She was also a pretty good cook. A treat, one we didn't have often, was doughnuts she made from scratch. She'd make the batter out of... things, I suppose - I wish I had gotten that recipe from her, but I imagine it was basically a cake batter with some spices- and then deep fry the doughnuts in this terrifying pot full of hot oil. They were amazing, especially still warm from the pot.

Zeppola tastes a bit like those home-made doughnuts to me, with a dusting of powdered sugar my Mom would not have added. I'm working on a Blueberry/Custard/Lemon/Zeppola these days, but I figure I'll eventually make a lot of Zeppola recipes. It's one of the best "compound" flavors I've come across.

People also seem to like FA's Nonna's Cake a lot- I think I am going to pick it up in my next order. It's another European-oriented flavor, and since I don't have it yet I can't say much about it, but... well it's not a yellow cake, I'm pretty sure.

• Cream and/or Sweet Cream
  • Fresh Cream (FA): Just like the name implies; fresh, light, not really sweet, CREAM. This is a must have in any DIYer's kit (in my mind), This is a safer choice.
  • Vienna Cream (FA): Rich, heavy, sweet, cream with a touch of vanilla. Do NOT use above 3% or may impart unpleasant “sharp” notes. Safer choice.
  • Sweet Cream (CAP): The name says it all; it is a sweet liquid cream (not to be confused with “whipped”). Falls between FA's Fresh, and Vienna. Safer choice.
  • Vanilla Whipped Cream (CAP): If you are wanting a true sweet “whipped” cream effect; this is the one. It is sweet, with a gentle touch of vanilla, and a light/fluffy body that adds volume without adding density. Safer choice.

There are a zillion of these. For good reason. A cream can be one of the central notes of a recipe, or it can be a prominent accent, or you can add just a touch to round out rough edges of other flavors. These are like Pokemons- you kind of want them all, because each has its use. One that IDJoel didn't mention, but that I consider a must-have, is FLV Cream. So, so good for so many applications...

• Marshmallow
  • Marshmallow (FA): This is a good basic “marshmallow.: Substitutes easily for TFA, CAP, and FW versions without major adjustments. Safer choice.

Yep, this is the one I would recommend, but if you have TPA's it can be used almost interchangeably. Use a very slow hand with this one though- it adds some sweetness and mouthfeel that is essential in some recipes, but it can also mute other flavors. Go low with these.

TPA Toasted Marshmallow is another beast, and also worth having, but that's a conversation for another day.

• Cinnamon (bakery)
  • Cinnamon Ceylon (FA): Best “bakery” cinnamon out there. Just like the powdered spice it is named for; no candy notes or sweetness. Use with a light hand; I would start at 0.5-1.0% and adjust from there. Safer choice.
  • Cinnamon Spice (TFA): This is a distant second to FA's Cinnamon Ceylon; but if I couldn't get the Ceylon, this would be my second choice. Safer choice.

Some of the cinnamon bakeries might be worth having for their own virtues, but if you want a good cinnamon there is really only one option, IMHO. FLV Rich Cinnamon is the Cinnabomb, and nothing else comes close. Yes, it's expensive (though you can, and should, get a smaller size from Gremlin.) But 5 mills of this (Gremlin's FLV 5 mills actually measure around 8 mills too) is enough to last you a very long time. I dilute this _20x_ so I can make small batches with it.

• Brown Sugar
  • Brown Sugar DX (TFA): Wins this by default. It (and its twin: Brown Sugar Extra... NOT a safer choice) are the only main-stream ones (aside from FW's; which is hard to find) that I see used. It is just as implied; a light brown sugar with only a suggestion of molasses. The DX version is a safer choice.

Yep, and I would have put this under the butterscotch/caramel section... it's all flavorful sugars right? This has, btw, a natural affinity with another pairing people have found surprisingly good, TPA Toasted Marshmallow and TAP Kentucky Bourbon (credit to Idiot and coop.) There are still some nice recipes to be found in that space, I think (think pears and creams- yum.) I've been playing with pears lately, and this is a natural accent to them, and likely to apples, etc.

• Blueberry
  • This is another difficult one for me. I have only used TFA's Blueberry Extra, and Blueberry Wild, and I wasn't impressed with either. On my “want to try someday” list is:
  • Blueberry Jam (CAP): I have read some very favorable things, on ECF, about this flavor. It is supposed to be a sweeter, more jammy representation of the fruit. Safer choice.
  • Bilberry (FA): This is probably the single most popular “blueberry-like” flavor I see recommended. The bilberry is the European continent's equivalent to the American blueberry; but with a bit more of a “sweet and sour” contrast. Safer choice.

Blueberry is the dark to strawberry's light, and I think there was one juice line that even played on that in their names (though they said up and down, rather than light and dark.) That said, blueberries are a lot harder than strawberries. One of those cases where you need like 10 concentrates from different companies, and need to mix them carefully to get what you want.

There is a basic blueberry mix that seems to work well for people as a starting point- it's called the Blueberry Trinity (I think EdibleMalfunction from Reddit might have come up with it.) It's TFA Blueberry Extra, FW Blueberry, and FA Bilberry, in about a 6/2/1 ratio (so maybe 3%/1%/0.5%.) I've been playing a lot with Blueberries lately, for my Zeppola recipe, and have thoughts on the profile, so I could say more on the subject, but... novella, right?

I disagree about FA Bilberry being a safe choice for a main blueberry profile. I think it's an almost essential accent, but it is very dark and very strong. I don't get American Blueberry from it by itself.

• Strawberry
  • Red Touch (Strawberry)(FA): This one is closest to the fresh picked berry from the bush (especially fresh; tends to “jam” a bit after a week. If I could only have one strawberry in my kit; this would be it. Safer choice.
  • Sweet Strawberry (CAP): This is a good one for blending with other strawberry concentrates. It adds sweetness and can soften any “off” notes. It is a bit more “artificial” compared to FA Red Touch, but it is worthy of a spot in my kit. Safer choice.
  • Strawberry (Ripe)(TFA): This is a good blender. It is not really an “authentic” strawberry per se, but it fits a nitch. 3% TFA Strawberry Ripe to 2% CAP Sweet Strawberry is a classic combo. Strawberry Ripe is called for in a LOT of recipes so it is good to have on hand. Safer choice.
  • Strawberry (TFA): I waffled on whether to include this one on my list. It is probably the one I reach for the least of the four listed here; but it does have its fan following. Those that like it; say that it is the more “authentic” of the two TFA strawberry offerings, but I never really noticed much of a difference. This too is a safer choice.

I think Red Touch is an odd first choice. It's good, but it has that very dry FA character, which is not what I want in a main strawberry note. I think strawberry is one of the things TFA does well, in both regular Strawberry, and Ripe.

I would also at this point _always_ sub JF Sweet Strawberry in for Cap's. It's just better, IMHO.

INW Strawberry Shisha is also a nice syrupy strawberry. Goes well with Ripe and Strawberry Sweet.

Id also say that if you are going to mix anything Strawberry, or really an fruit, get TPA Dragonfruit. Along those lines, I think any first order for someone who likes fruit should have FA Fuji and FA Lemon Sicily in it.

• Pina Colada
  • Pinacolada (INW): I know you said that coconut was not being your friend; BUT if you decide to try again, this needs to be at the top of your list. Great pineapple-to-coconut balance with a hint of cream. Good as a stand-alone. Safer choice.

Not a profile I love, but if you like it Id recommend checking out Idiot's recipe: If You Like Piña Coladas.

There's a mango recipe as well, that I might try soon. Anyway, they are highly rated, so some people must like them .

The two classics are TFA Sweetener, and CAP Super Sweet. Both are the same thing (sucralose); the CAP is just twice the concentration, so you use half as much.

If sucralose is a deal-breaker; then stevia (specifically made for vaping; like OSDIYS, or Nude Nicotine's offering. NOT the stuff on the grocery shelf.) works too. There are others as well; but I will try to refrain from bogging this down any further.

I'd recommend staying away from sweeteners, for the most part, at least at first. They have their place, but the flavors we use are sweetened enough, IMHO, once you recover from the expectations commercial juices have set for your palate. Give your palate some time to recover from that. If you really feel you need a sweetener you might look at FLV's Sweetener- it's Stevia, but apparently they have done some work to mitigate some of Stevia's off flavors.

EDIT: I'll also add that using features like bulleted lists makes posts very difficult to properly quote, as the editor used for commenting does not handle them well.

 

[Mazinny]

Great thread ! Just starting with DIY myself and found some of the posts in this thread very very useful. Thank you @IDJoel , @JCinFLA , @go_player , and every one else for the detailed responses ...... and thank you to @MrsP0721 for managing to elicit such detailed responses from some of the more knowledgeable members here. I have seen many threads started ( even back in 2014 and 2015 when the ecig forums were at peak popularity ) with similar questions, and the thread dies within a few posts after the obligatory " every vendor has hits and misses ... blah blah blah " responses !

 

[JCinFLA]

There are diketone free versions of a number of staple flavors, like CAP's V2 flavors, and TFA's DX flavors. I don't have any of them, but what I hear is that they work out pretty well for some people, but _require_ a long steep. Other people just can't stand them, even after a steep. For most of the custards and creams the most important difference between the lines is that the diketones have been replaced with butyric acid. This is part of what gives butter its characteristic flavor, but is also part of what gives vomit its characteristic aroma. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that which you get more of from those flavors is going to have a lot to do with whether or not you like them.

I just have some comments to add to and about the above, since I do regularly use some of the V2 and DX versions of flavorings.

First, Capella currently has 21 V2 of their regular flavorings. So far, I've used only 9 of the 12 Capella regular flavorings that I've bought + the V2 of 3 of those. To me I couldn't detect a difference in taste between the regular versions and the V2, when used in a recipe. I could smell a slight difference in them when still in their bottles, but there was no smell difference once in the mix. I also got no "nasty" taste (like referenced above) to any of them.

Second, TFA currently has 22 DX versions of their regular flavorings. I've got 86 regular TFA flavorings and 13 of their DX versions. So far, I've tried just 12 of the 13 DX versions I have, as well as their regular counterparts. Again, I can't tell any difference in their taste in a recipe, and only a slight difference in the smell for some of them when in their bottles. Also, no "nasty" taste to any of them.

As far as the V2 and DX versions taking longer to "steep" or "age"...in my experience, they take the same amount of time as the regular versions...which is usually none, for the recipes I use them in. The only eliquids I ever let "age naturally" for 2-3 days are those that contain custardy flavorings. Others are all basically shake, blend with my little handheld Norpro Mini Mixer, and vape!

So I guess there is a wide difference of opinion on the taste, the steep time, etc. for the V2 and DX versions of flavorings. For me though, I'll use the V2 and DX versions when they're available, because if I have a choice of avoiding the diketones while still getting the great taste of the regular versions IMO...it's a "win win" situation.

 

[MrsP0721]

I agree, I love all these detailed responses! I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little overwhelmed/intimidated though lol. I set my mind to doing it bc I need to save money and bc I thought I could just go off recommendations on flavors and mix them and life would be great. There's def. a LOT more involved than I originally thought and it's scary!

Atm I am close to tears bc I screwed something up somehow, OR my palate changed overnight and EVERYTHING tastes WAY too sweet to me! I mixed up some of my usual stuff and for some reason today it's tasting awful! Even the straight VG I have is tasting really sweet! Wth is happening to me?!?! And it's the same kind of sweet, but I'm using several different juices (and the straight VG). I'm not sure why, but if it stays sweet like that, I could have just ruined a ton of my juice. I didn't do anything different and trying to dilute with the VG isn't fixing the issue at all! I'm hoping I'm just going crazy today for some reason and that I'll wake up tomorrow and everything will be fine again lol.

 

[go_player]

Atm I am close to tears bc I screwed something up somehow, OR my palate changed overnight and EVERYTHING tastes WAY too sweet to me!

Don't cry, unless you want to and it makes you feel better. Pretty much everyone here has gone through wild swings in how we perceive flavors as we've gone from smoking to buying juice to mixing our own. And I think we've all gone through the emotional swings giving up smoking produces. I'm a manly man, and not prone to tears, but I'll admit to having been close to crying from frustration over aspects of vaping before. I figured them out, got through it, and you will too.

If everything you mix tastes weird and off (this happens sometimes,) well you might have to ride it out. This happens a lot more right after you stop smoking, and right after you start mixing. I have a go-to mix for times like that. It's just 0.5% FA Fuji. If even that tastes weird... well, all I can say is that it will get better, eventually, and that I've been there, and you have my sympathies.

Cigarettes are a hell of a drug, and giving that drug up is difficult (but very worthwhile.) Vaping helps, a _lot_, but breaking an addiction you've had for years is hard. All kinds of weird things happen in those first weeks. The good news is that once you get through them things become easier than you expected .

 

[MrsP0721]

Don't cry, unless you want to and it makes you feel better. Pretty much everyone here has gone through wild swings in how we perceive flavors as we've gone from smoking to buying juice to mixing our own. And I think we've all gone through the emotional swings giving up smoking produces. I'm a manly man, and not prone to tears, but I'll admit to having been close to crying from frustration over aspects of vaping before. I figured them out, got through it, and you will too.

It's just been a hell of a day, issues with my NEW car, but now I'm getting a new NEW car lol, then I waited far too long to take my pain meds today and now my body just hates me no matter how many I take! (don't worry, it's not more than I'm supposed to lol)

This isn't juice I've DIYed by the way, it's just my premade, store bought juices that I always mix together. I just tried them again and they're fine! That was the weirdest dang thing EVER, I mean, literally ALL I could taste was SWEET! But now it's normal lol. In my almost 3 and a half years of vaping, Idk that this has happened before, so I still have no idea what that was, but it scared the crap outta me! I'm wondering if the first juice I tasted was REALLY sweet and that's just all my palate would allow me to taste after.

 

[IDJoel]

There are flavors a lot of people love that taste like despair to me.

BEST single sentence (related to DIY) I have ever read!

INW Strawberry Shisha is also a nice syrupy strawberry.

And I can't get past the perfumey strawberry/tobacco notes. I bought this concentrate specifically because of all the rave responses to @AndriaD's strawberry cream recipe, and all I could get out of it was "bad hookah bar." This just proves my point; that I am not a good (majority?) judge of taste/flavor. I know there are MANY who value this concentrate.

EDIT: I'll also add that using features like bulleted lists makes posts very difficult to properly quote, as the editor used for commenting does not handle them well.

Duly noted. That may be partially (all?) my fault; as I wrote that outside of ECF (on OpenOffice), and then did a "cut & paste" on to ECF. Sorry for the hassle.

@go-player,
I really appreciate your detailed post; thanks for taking the time! I am glad to know I am not the only one; to not only write, but read, such "novellas." You are, indeed, a kindred spirit!

 

[go_player]

BEST single sentence (related to DIY) I have ever read!

I'm glad you liked it .

And I can't get past the perfumey strawberry/tobacco notes. I bought this concentrate specifically because of all the rave responses to @AndriaD's strawberry cream recipe, and all I could get out of it was "bad hookah bar." This just proves my point; that I am not a good (majority?) judge of taste/flavor. I know there are MANY who value this concentrate.

Hmm- that's a bit odd, and I'm going to have to chalk at least a little of it up to the power of suggestion- the INW Shisha flavors aren't tobacco flavors (INW does have a lot of tobaccos.) I think it might be a little like how some people taste liquor notes in FA Vanilla Bourbon (which is named after an island, not a drink.)

That said, there are some definite floral notes in a lot of the INW berry flavors, and they can be a bit of-putting, especially when used as main profiles. And they're _very_ concentrated, and can't be used at the kinds of percentages you'd use a TFA or CAP strawberries at. I use the Shisha Strawberry pretty low, as a supplement for other Strawberries, like TFA Ripe and JF Sweet. It might be that this one just doesn't agree with you, but you might try using it really low with some others, just to see if it agrees with you more used like that.

What do you think of their Raspberry (not the Shisha, the plain Raspberry?) That might give a clue as to how your perceive the Shisha Strawberry .

Duly noted. That may be partially (all?) my fault; as I wrote that outside of ECF (on OpenOffice), and then did a "cut & paste" on to ECF. Sorry for the hassle.

Nah, don't change a thing cause of me. Your formatting adds a certain character and polish to your posts that I'd hate to interfere with. I was just being grumpy (it is kind of hard to reply to your individual bullet points, but I could always reformat things.)

@go-player,
I really appreciate your detailed post; thanks for taking the time! I am glad to know I am not the only one; to not only write, but read, such "novellas." You are, indeed, a kindred spirit!

I definitely appreciated all of your very detailed posts in this thread. They're full of information and they make me feel like I'm not the only really long-winded person in the world. The sad thing is that I go back and look at a long post like the one I wrote above and think... hmm... I really wanted to say this and this and this too- it's like a disease or something .

Actually, I will drop one note I really wish I had put in above here, about sweeteners. FA Meringue is one of the most useful flavors out there. It's never the star of the show, so it doesn't get the press it deserves, but it's an amazingly versatile supporting player. When you want a sweet vape, and Meringue fits the profile, it is indispensable, IMHO.

 

[go_player]

It's just been a hell of a day, issues with my NEW car, but now I'm getting a new NEW car lol, then I waited far too long to take my pain meds today and now my body just hates me no matter how many I take! (don't worry, it's not more than I'm supposed to lol)

This isn't juice I've DIYed by the way, it's just my premade, store bought juices that I always mix together. I just tried them again and they're fine! That was the weirdest dang thing EVER, I mean, literally ALL I could taste was SWEET! But now it's normal lol. In my almost 3 and a half years of vaping, Idk that this has happened before, so I still have no idea what that was, but it scared the crap outta me! I'm wondering if the first juice I tasted was REALLY sweet and that's just all my palate would allow me to taste after.

Ah, my apologies- I think I had you confused a bit with someone I replied to in another thread, and thought you were completely new to vaping. Sorry to hear about the rough day. I've had a few lately myself... it would be nice if life could just go a little more smoothly, wouldn't it?

I posted something in another thread about vaper's tongue... I won't rehash it completely here, but it is my opinion that most commercial juice is very over-flavored, in order to have the most appeal on first vape, especially to recent smokers using sub-par devices. I make very flavorful juice that comes in at well under 10% (sometimes much less than that) using the same flavorings commercial juices use at, sometimes, close to 30%.

That's probably good for their sales, but it's not a great thing for your palate, IMHO. Even the weaker flavorings we use (like most of TFA's fruits, for instance) are very concentrated. Referring back to an earlier point in this thread, I am definitely in the "less is more" camp. There's only so much you can ask your nose to put up with, and when you overload it with too many flavor molecules _all kinds_ of wacky things are going to happen. The first thing I do when a recipe isn't working out how I thought it would is start lowering percentages. You might be surprised at how often that just fixes things.

 

[IDJoel]

Hmm- that's a bit odd, and I'm going to have to chalk at least a little of it up to the power of suggestion- the INW Shisha flavors aren't tobacco flavors (INW does have a lot of tobaccos.)

I politely disagree with you on this one. True, Shisha Strawberry is not a "tobacco flavored with a bit of strawberry" but more of a "strawberry flavored with a bit of tobacco" (to me anyway).

(Also; I would not agree that 51 tobacco flavors is "not a lot." Sure, others have "more," and you could even make a case for "other do tobaccos better," but I don't think their selection is at all stingy. )

I am in my mid 50's, so I missed the most recent fad of hookah smoking, but our local tobacco shops all started carrying hookah supplies (including the shisha tobaccos used in them), while I was still a smoker. I have never smoked shisha, so I can't say what it actually tastes like; but I can tell you what it smelled like, because the tobacco shops absolutely wreaked of it! When I asked a sales clerk what that god-awful perfumey, incense stench was, he walked over to a shelf and pulled down a plastic tub that looked rather like a small margarine tub, opened it, and held it out to me. I looked in and there was this dark, thick, paste that was painfully aromatic, with notes of fruit, and sugar/honey, and wet/damp tobacco vaguely like pipe tobacco. This is exactly what the Shisha Strawberry vapes like for me.

And they're _very_ concentrated, and can't be used at the kinds of percentages you'd use a TFA or CAP strawberries at. I use the Shisha Strawberry pretty low, as a supplement for other Strawberries, like TFA Ripe and JF Sweet. It might be that this one just doesn't agree with you, but you might try using it really low with some others, just to see if it agrees with you more used like that.

Now this very well may be why I am getting the tobacco notes you are not. The very first (and only) recipe I tried it in (once) was @AndriaD's Strawberries & Cream recipe; in which, she calls for 14%! I thought that was horrifically high, but people kept replying to her post, about "how wonderful" it was. So, I thought "What the heck; this many people can't possibly have that much of a different palate, than mine. Let's give it a shot!" Man, it took me for EVER to finish that 10 mLs! It kinda killed the flavor for me... now the smell just from the open bottle is too much for me. So I have yet been able to revisit it at any lower levels to see where I ought to be using it at.

I like your idea of using it at very low levels, and as accent to more "classic" strawberry concentrates. I would not be at all surprised to find I could use it. I just need to get over my revulsion. I hope it is not like my experience with scotch; my first serious drunk as a teenager, was getting into the patent's liquor cabinet, and taking several pulls straight from the bottle of Cutty Sark. The rest of the night and the next several days do not need to be described; other than to say, to this day, I do not care for the smell of scotch, let alone be able to drink it!

What do you think of their Raspberry (not the Shisha, the plain Raspberry?) That might give a clue as to how your perceive the Shisha Strawberry .

I do have, and use, INW Raspberry. And you are right; I never use it above 2%. And, most often as an accent/supplement, to at least one additional raspberry. This very well could be what I should be doing with the Strawberry Shisha.

Nah, don't change a thing cause of me. Your formatting adds a certain character and polish to your posts that I'd hate to interfere with. I was just being grumpy (it is kind of hard to reply to your individual bullet points, but I could always reformat things.)

I do it not so much to make my post "pretty;" but to (hopefully) more legible/more understandable. I know I tend to ramble, so I hope the bullet points help, to make my thoughts a bit easier to follow. I was never aware it made quoting more difficult. I appreciate you saying something. I will try to look closer in future posts, at how necessary I think they are, to what I am trying to say.

I definitely appreciated all of your very detailed posts in this thread. They're full of information and they make me feel like I'm not the only really long-winded person in the world.

Nope; until I get booted off ECF (), you will always at least have me, to keep you company!
And thank you for all the kind words. I can't take much credit though, because almost all I have learned has been at the knee of a lot of good folks here on ECF, willing to share their own knowledge, and understanding, with the likes of me. So, I hope they all feel the kindness you share toward me, as directed to them as well.

The sad thing is that I go back and look at a long post like the one I wrote above and think... hmm... I really wanted to say this and this and this too- it's like a disease or something .

That gave me a good chuckle because it is so true for me too! It also made me remember what the author Robert Heinlein said about writing: "Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of -- but do it in private and was your hands afterwards." (from his novel "Time Enough for Love" in the "voice" of Lazarus Long)

Actually, I will drop one note I really wish I had put in above here, about sweeteners. FA Meringue is one of the most useful flavors out there. It's never the star of the show, so it doesn't get the press it deserves, but it's an amazingly versatile supporting player. When you want a sweet vape, and Meringue fits the profile, it is indispensable, IMHO.

I almost chose to skip over this last paragraph; so I could respond in a separate post (it deserves it). I too, thought about suggesting meringue to start, as I too find it extremely useful. But I didn't want to overwhelm the OP with yet more flavors to consider. I am glad you shared; because now I can put all the blame on you!

 

[go_player]

I politely disagree with you on this one. True, Shisha Strawberry is not a "tobacco flavored with a bit of strawberry" but more of a "strawberry flavored with a bit of tobacco" (to me anyway).

Well, I'm going to have to politely disagree back- there is _no_ tobacco in INW Shisha Strawberry. It's a pure strawberry. INW's naming can be a bit confusing, but their Shisha flavors aren't generally tobacco flavors, despite the name. Strawberry Shisha is not a tobacco flavor, at all.

(Also; I would not agree that 51 tobacco flavors is "not a lot." Sure, others have "more," and you could even make a case for "other do tobaccos better," but I don't think their selection is at all stingy. )

I think you might have misread me there- I said "(INW does have a lot of tobaccos.)" They do, so we agree about this .

Now this very well may be why I am getting the tobacco notes you are not. The very first (and only) recipe I tried it in (once) was @AndriaD's Strawberries & Cream recipe; in which, she calls for 14%! I thought that was horrifically high, but people kept replying to her post, about "how wonderful" it was. So, I thought "What the heck; this many people can't possibly have that much of a different palate, than mine. Let's give it a shot!" Man, it took me for EVER to finish that 10 mLs! It kinda killed the flavor for me... now the smell just from the open bottle is too much for me. So I have yet been able to revisit it at any lower levels to see where I ought to be using it at.

OK, I think we have found the culprit. 14%? For an INW flavor? I mean no offense to AndriaD, but that's _insane_. I have yet to find an INW flavor I would use over 4%, and even 4% is _way_ too high for most INW flavors, including Shisha Strawberry. 0.5%-3%, mixed with other strawberries, is where it shines. At 14%- damn, son, I'm surprised you can still taste anything after vaping that. And amazed you vaped the bottle... bless your heart.

I do have, and use, INW Raspberry. And you are right; I never use it above 2%. And, most often as an accent/supplement, to at least one additional raspberry. This very well could be what I should be doing with the Strawberry Shisha.

Yeah, I think you might like it at reasonable percentages. Try it at something like FA Red Touch 2%, JF or CAP Sweet 1-2% and INW Strawberry Shisha 2%-3%. Unless vaping it at 14% has forever ruined it for you....

Nope; until I get booted off ECF (), you will always at least have me, to keep you company!

Well that makes two of us .

That gave me a good chuckle because it is so true for me too! It also made me remember what the author Robert Heinlein said about writing: "Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of -- but do it in private and was your hands afterwards." (from his novel "Time Enough for Love" in the "voice" of Lazarus Long)

I'm familiar with the quote, and I like it. Heinlein was a family friend, though I never met him- a bit before my time, I'm afraid. My grandfather (who died before I was born) was seriously involved in fandom back in the 50s. Aldous Huxley was my mother's godfather, but I never got to meet him either. And, apparently, Ted Sturgeon had a serious thing for my grandmother (who was an attractive woman in her day,) a thing that caused a bit of trouble once or twice.

I almost chose to skip over this last paragraph; so I could respond in a separate post (it deserves it). I too, thought about suggesting meringue to start, as I too find it extremely useful. But I didn't want to overwhelm the OP with yet more flavors to consider. I am glad you shared; because now I can put all the blame on you!

And I probably deserve it all. But yeah, we could probably devote a long thread to things like FA Meringue.

 

[MrsP0721]

Ah, my apologies- I think I had you confused a bit with someone I replied to in another thread, and thought you were completely new to vaping. Sorry to hear about the rough day. I've had a few lately myself... it would be nice if life could just go a little more smoothly, wouldn't it?

Omg, it would be great!!! Life has been slamming me in the ground and dancing on my already mangled body lately!! Such is life though, right! I've had a rough LIFE and I'm still around to tell the tale, so what's a few bad days lol. I hope yours get better!!

I posted something in another thread about vaper's tongue... I won't rehash it completely here, but it is my opinion that most commercial juice is very over-flavored, in order to have the most appeal on first vape, especially to recent smokers using sub-par devices. I make very flavorful juice that comes in at well under 10% (sometimes much less than that) using the same flavorings commercial juices use at, sometimes, close to 30%.

It's funny you mention vaper's tongue bc that's a problem that plagues me frequently! I have always asked for, and vaped, really strong flavors thinking that would help with my vaper's tongue, but I'm learning since looking into this whole DIY thing, that I may have had it backwards this whole time! Wouldn't that be a great added bonus, less vaper's tongue bc I'm using less flavor! Could I really be so lucky? lol

I almost chose to skip over this last paragraph; so I could respond in a separate post (it deserves it). I too, thought about suggesting meringue to start, as I too find it extremely useful. But I didn't want to overwhelm the OP with yet more flavors to consider. I am glad you shared; because now I can put all the blame on you!

Overwhelm me with flavors all day long lol. I'm overwhelmed with the process! BUT it was mentioned that I'd need to try individual flavors, on their own, before I would know what they'd taste like together and that's something that sounds very important, that I hadn't thought of. So maybe I just make batches of individual flavors/juices and then once they are ready to vape on their own, I can mix them with other individual flavors/juices instead of trying to just immediately start mixing flavors together, right?

 

[IDJoel]

Well, I'm going to have to politely disagree back- there is _no_ tobacco in INW Shisha Strawberry. It's a pure strawberry. INW's naming can be a bit confusing, but their Shisha flavors aren't generally tobacco flavors, despite the name. Strawberry Shisha is not a tobacco flavor, at all.

I hear what you're saying; I think this is one we will have to agree to disagree about. I would not be at all surprised if the "shisha" might not disappear at more reasonable levels. I would be curious, if you had a momentary lapse of all common sense (), and were to mix up a very small (0.5-1.0mL?) tester of INW-S.S. at 14%, if you would not also get the shisha component that I got. But PLEASE don't trash you own palate to satisfy MY curiousity... it IS pretty nasty.

I think you might have misread me there- I said "(INW does have a lot of tobaccos.)" They do, so we agree about this

No "might have" about it; that was 100% ALL my bad! I'm sorry!! Evelyn Wood's "Sped Redding" class strikes again. <where is the egg-on-face emoji?!>

OK, I think we have found the culprit. 14%? For an INW flavor? I mean no offense to AndriaD, but that's _insane_. I have yet to find an INW flavor I would use over 4%, and even 4% is _way_ too high for most INW flavors, including Shisha Strawberry. 0.5%-3%, mixed with other strawberries, is where it shines. At 14%- damn, son, I'm surprised you can still taste anything after vaping that. And amazed you vaped the bottle... bless your heart.

Still laughing at this paragraph! You are right; it messed with my palate pretty good for the better part of a week. But, I am a cheap, and stubborn old cuss, so I powered through. Even though the prudent thing ould have been to just dump it.

I am pretty much in the same boat as you; with 4% being the TOP of most Inaweras I have tried. The one exception is INW Custard which I do happen to like at 6% as a stand-alone. But, most of the others (even the Custard when blended with other flavors) seem to find themselves between 0.5% and 3% for me, depending on the flavor, and how I am using it (primary, secondary, or accent).

Yeah, I think you might like it at reasonable percentages. Try it at something like FA Red Touch 2%, JF or CAP Sweet 1-2% and INW Strawberry Shisha 2%-3%. Unless vaping it at 14% has forever ruined it for you....

What you are suggesting makes perfect sense to me. I just need to put on my big boy pants, get over my mental hang-up, and revisit it. I'll let you know what comes of it.

I'm familiar with the quote, and I like it. Heinlein was a family friend, though I never met him- a bit before my time, I'm afraid. My grandfather (who died before I was born) was seriously involved in fandom back in the 50s. Aldous Huxley was my mother's godfather, but I never got to meet him either. And, apparently, Ted Sturgeon had a serious thing for my grandmother (who was an attractive woman in her day,) a thing that caused a bit of trouble once or twice.

How cool is all of that that?!

And I probably deserve it all. But yeah, we could probably devote a long thread to things like FA Meringue.

That would be an interesting topic. "What "flavors" do you use for other than just adding flavor; and what do you use them for? That is one I would follow for sure! Go for it!

 

[IDJoel]

Overwhelm me with flavors all day long lol.

I am hesitant to get too much going until we can develop some sort of a "common language" of flavors. Once you have had a chance to experiment with a half dozen, or so, flavors, and can describe what you taste, and at what percentages you prefer them at; then we will have a better idea of how, and where to point you next.

I understand how the idea of DIY can be exciting, and makes a person want to be an instant "gourmand," but I simply don't know any short cuts to putting in some work. Once you take those first couple of steps, and can offer some practical, real time, feedback, you will have truly started your adventure.

Learn from someone who did it the wrong way (me; if you haven't guessed). Shortly after I started my own journey, I got so excited, and ordered over 80 different concentrates with no idea how I wanted to use them. I just kept reading recipes, reviews of recipes, flavor reviews, discussions of how others were getting good results using specific flavors, and I made lists of all these flavors. But what I didn't do was record the recipes, who or how they were being used, or where I read about them, so I could go back and remind myself on why I wanted it in the first place.

If I am being honest with myself, I would guess I have only reordered 10-15 of those original 80+, and have eventually found a need (or use) for another 20-30. But more often, I discovered later, that there were other concentrates, by different manufacturers, that worked better for me. To this day (2+ years later, and a flavor stash now approaching nearly 300 different concentrates), I would wager that a full 40 of those original 80 concentrates have yet to be even opened. I do NOT recommend that method for ANYONE! It was wasteful, overwhelming, and unproductive. As an old supervisor of mine was fond of saying "The best way to eat an elephant; is one small bite at a time." I find this works well for me and DIY.

BUT it was mentioned that I'd need to try individual flavors, on their own, before I would know what they'd taste like together and that's something that sounds very important, that I hadn't thought of.

"Need" might be a bit strong, but it sure is a great way to do it, especially since you are just starting out. It develops good habits, gives useful feedback (both to you, and allows you to communicate more specific information to us), and will keep you from ending up like me.

So maybe I just make batches of individual flavors/juices and then once they are ready to vape on their own, I can mix them with other individual flavors/juices instead of trying to just immediately start mixing flavors together, right?

That certainly is one way you can begin to experiment with multiple flavors. The shortcoming of that method (in my mind) is that it can be hard to know exactly how much of "A" you are adding to "B." That can make being able to repeat the success (or avoid the failure) is by understanding what you have done.

No matter how you decide to mix, PLEASE remember to start with SMALL amounts. 3-5mL single flavor samples are AMPLE for tasting (That's 3-5mLs mixed. Not 3-5mLs of concentrate PLUS a bunch of VG to dilute it down); remember that you are expecting these to not be mixes that you particularly want to vape. You are only trying to understand what the concentrate is bring to the party, and at what percentage you like it best at. It's like nibbling on a single leaf of rosemary; you wouldn't want to eat the entire sprig, but you want to know what it is going to do to your sauce.

Then, with the leftovers, you can combine a couple, and see what you think. Just remember, if you use it all making one big batch, you have nothing left to try a different way. Little bites.

(And notes, notes, notes!)

 

[MrsP0721]

As always, that makes a LOT of sense and is explained very well I've had so much going on that I haven't had the money to get started yet, I'm about chomping at the bits! lol. I did go to a local vape shop today that I used to go to all the time, before I started buying everything online, bc my mom had a coupon for her bday. They have a juice there that I used to buy all the time, it's a banana coconut (and it never seemed to bother me, so I still have no idea why the THREE coconut juices I've used lately has caused such a strange reaction), I smelled it bc it is just so good and they let me drop a few drops in my tank (I wanted to see what would happen, how bad the reaction would be to this particular coconut) and for some reason, I had ZERO reaction, my throat wasn't burning, my chest wasn't hurting, nothing at all happened... so my mom bought the bottle for me with her coupon and I've been vaping it since and still, nothing and it tastes amazing! So why?? I mean, I'm not complaining, but I've tried THREE other coconuts (well, juices that also have coconut) and they all caused the same reaction, so why did this one not? It's very confusing lol.

 

[IDJoel]

They have a juice there that I used to buy all the time,

Is this an e-liquid that they make there in the vape shop? Or is it a commercial name brand?

If it is made there in the shop; maybe they would be willing to tell you which coconut concentrate they are using to make it.

So why?? I mean, I'm not complaining, but I've tried THREE other coconuts (well, juices that also have coconut) and they all caused the same reaction, so why did this one not? It's very confusing lol.

That is the real question; is it even the coconut? I realize that coconut is one identifiable common component that the three other juices shared. But that doesn't mean it is the only one. AND, even if it is the coconut, there is no way of knowing what coconut they are using. I just did a quick search on All The Flavors, and found no less than 25 coconut concentrates without counting coconut combos.

Irritation can come from all sorts of things: PG/VG ratio, nicotine, ingredients, coil/wick crud, power/temp the liquid is vaped at, just to name a few.

What is different about the three that bothered you; compared to everything that doesn't?

 

[MrsP0721]

Is this an e-liquid that they make there in the vape shop? Or is it a commercial name brand?

If it is made there in the shop; maybe they would be willing to tell you which coconut concentrate they are using to make it.

That is the real question; is it even the coconut? I realize that coconut is one identifiable common component that the three other juices shared. But that doesn't mean it is the only one. AND, even if it is the coconut, there is no way of knowing what coconut they are using. I just did a quick search on All The Flavors, and found no less than 25 coconut concentrates without counting coconut combos.

Irritation can come from all sorts of things: PG/VG ratio, nicotine, ingredients, coil/wick crud, power/temp the liquid is vaped at, just to name a few.

What is different about the three that bothered you; compared to everything that doesn't?

It is a house juice, and I've gotta go back tomorrow so I plan on asking!

That's the thing, the ONLY thing the same is the coconut. The first juice I got was from the Naked line, which is supposed to be great, the second was from a local shop and it was also a banana coconut, the third was just coconut from Vape Dudes' naturals line. Everything else was the same, nic, PG/VG, coils, watts, everything! It's strange, but I know there are several different flavors of coconut so maybe it's only certain ones?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[DaveP]

Atm I am close to tears bc I screwed something up somehow, OR my palate changed overnight and EVERYTHING tastes WAY too sweet to me! I mixed up some of my usual stuff and for some reason today it's tasting awful! Even the straight VG I have is tasting really sweet! Wth is happening to me?!?! And it's the same kind of sweet, but I'm using several different juices (and the straight VG). I'm not sure why, but if it stays sweet like that, I could have just ruined a ton of my juice. I didn't do anything different and trying to dilute with the VG isn't fixing the issue at all! I'm hoping I'm just going crazy today for some reason and that I'll wake up tomorrow and everything will be fine again lol.

This may have been mentioned, but most of us keep a big bottle of unflavored nic juice around to vape and we use it to cut overly flavored DIY juices down to a vapable level. We've all mixed a too strong batch that we hated. Cutting it with unflavored in the right amount fixes the problem.

Just mix up a bottle with nic, PG, and VG (no flavor) in your normal mix level and use it as a rescue mix or just vape it plain to help cure vaper's tongue. I have three 100ml bottles mixed up right now.

You can also use unflavored mix to test new flavors in 5ml sizes. 5ml is 100 drops, so for 6% mix you add 6 drops to a 5ml bottle. It's close enough to test and decide if you like that flavor.

If you want to be exact in your 5ml test mixes, use a syringe to add 5ml of water to a small 10ml bottle (gives you shaking room) and mark the level with a fine tip magic marker and tape over it so it doesn't wipe off, then empty the bottle. Then, you have a calibrated bottle for 5ml mixes. Add the flavor first (1 drop = 1%), then fill the bottle to the mark with unflavored mix.

 

[MrsP0721]

This may have been mentioned, but most of us keep a big bottle of unflavored nic juice around to vape and we use it to cut overly flavored DIY juices down to a vapable level. We've all mixed a too strong batch that we hated. Cutting it with unflavored in the right amount fixes the problem.

Just mix up a bottle with nic, PG, and VG in your normal mix level and use it as a rescue mix or just vape it plain to help cure vaper's tongue. I have three 100ml bottles mixed up right now.

You can also use unflavored mix to test new flavors in 5ml sizes. 5ml is 100 drops, so for 6% mix you add 6 drops to a 5ml bottle. It's close enough to test and decide if you like that flavor.

If you want to be exact in your 5ml test mixes, use a syringe to add 5ml of water to a small 10ml bottle (gives you shaking room) and mark the level with a fine tip magic marker and tape over it so it doesn't wipe off, then empty the bottle. Then, you have a calibrated bottle for 5ml mixes. Add the flavor first (1 drop = 1%), then fill the bottle to the mark with unflavored mix.

I think I'm starting to figure out that I MAY need to have at least a small amount of PG in my juices, when I was cutting the juices that were too sweet with just the VG, it wasn't doing a whole lot, or at least it took quite a bit more than expected, maybe bc the VG is also slightly sweet. Idk, but I'm also having some issues with wicking, so adding a SMALL amount of PG might be the best option for both of those problems. I'm hoping to order my base mix Friday (HOPING being the key word lol).

Thank you for that info, I do need to get small bottles... I have a ton of 30-60ml bottles, but I need to get some 5-15ml bottles for testing!

 

[IDJoel]

It is a house juice, and I've gotta go back tomorrow so I plan on asking

Commercial mixers can be rather protective of their recipes; so be specific about what, and why you are asking. I would say something along the lines of "I had a reaction to your {name of e-liquid}, along with two others, and the only common denominator is the coconut. Could you please tell me what coconut concentrate you use so I can try to avoid it in the future?"

This way you are not asking for the recipe, percentages, or even the other ingredients' origin(s). This would be least threatening that you might be trying to "steal" their recipe.

That's the thing, the ONLY thing the same is the coconut. The first juice I got was from the Naked line, which is supposed to be great, the second was from a local shop and it was also a banana coconut, the third was just coconut from Vape Dudes' naturals line. Everything else was the same, nic, PG/VG, coils, watts, everything! It's strange, but I know there are several different flavors of coconut so maybe it's only certain ones?

E-liquid names, and bottle labels, don't always tell you the whole story. You mentioned previously that you know/think you are sensitive to diacetyl, and if that is correct, there are a number of concentrates that use the DDAAP group (diketone, diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl) to create the sensation/taste of "thick," "rich," "buttery," "dairy," or "creamy" notes in the flavor profile.

Actual diketones, and even diacetyl, are either pretty much gone from most concentrates being used in e-liquid concentrates today; but acetoin, and acetyl propionyl, are still found in a fair number of concentrates. Resources like Bull City Flavors, e-liquid recipes, and some manufacturer websites (like TFA, and CAP); do a pretty good job of reporting known use of DDAAP, so you can avoid them if you wish.

Coconut is one good example of some that do, and some that don't, use DDAAP to create the creamy, milky notes that are classic to coconut. Go to Bull City Flavors, and type "coconut" in to the search box, and hit search. That will give you the coconut search results. If you scroll down through them; you will see some that have a red box/shading around the related image, that is made by using the word "Caution!" over, and over again. Those are the ones known/reported to contain one, or more, of DDAAP. Clicking on the individual flavors will open a detail page that will give more specific information.

Getting back to your current post:

You are dealing with finished e-liquids (ready to vape) and not individual concentrates. E-liquids are more difficult because you, the consumer, really don't know what all is in it. Take the Naked 100 as an example.

I assume that you are referring to Lava Flow; because it is the only one that uses "coconut" in the description (BTW: providing as much detail as you can, up front, saves a LOT of guessing). The common description is:

So, from this (and very similar descriptions found on several other vendor sites), we can guess that the most likely flavor concentrate candidates are strawberry, coconut, and pineapple. (I say "guess" very intentionally; because, if the manufacture does not specifically disclose, we don't know.) But what else isn't described? Probably some sort of sweetener at least. And often, with fruits, it is common to use something to "round off the edges," or soften the harsh/sharp/artificial background notes. Sometimes the sweetener(s) can be enough; other times small amounts of creams or dairies, or other flavors are used in this manner. Because they are not used to add "that" specific flavor note (they are only there to tone down the main profile); they are not included in the description. So one doesn't know, for sure, what all is actually in the juice.

The other name brand you mentioned was a "straight coconut from Vape Dudes" so I am guessing it is their Coconut Cream. Besides coconut, you have a myriad of different creams that are likely to have DDAAP potential. And, of course, the same potential for "mystery/secret" ingredients as the Lava Flow. Also, you don't mention what the PG/VG ratio is; Vape Dudes offers it anywhere from "Max VG, to 70PG/30VG.

The third, and final one, you mentioned gave you problems; was another locally made e-liquid you describe as a "banana coconut." Again; no PG/VG information. The majority of the banana concentrates are (reportedly) DDAAP free. But all the other potential issues apply. Since they are also local; you may want to have a conversation with them as well.

A final thought (for now!); you had mentioned in an earlier post, that you thought you were also sensitive to PG:

That actually brings up another question, would going with 3nic and a compete VG base be a bad idea? I did know about the flavoring adding PG to the mix and I'm sensitive to PG, so the higher the VG the better. Right now the majority of my juices are Max VG, I only have a small amount of 70VG and the rest are 80VG. But how much harder would it be to mix a VG only base?

Is the reaction you get to PG; the same as DDAAP? Is it possible you are crediting the symptoms of one, for the symptoms of the other? Could it be the relatively (30%) high PG that is the problem; instead of a flavoring issue? I have absolutely no idea... I am just grasping at all potential straws.