New to flavorings... advice, best brands, ect.

[MrsP0721]

I assume that you are referring to Lava Flow; because it is the only one that uses "coconut" in the description (BTW: providing as much detail as you can, up front, saves a LOT of guessing).

Sorry, I didn't post that with the intention of anyone looking into the ingredients, I only named the brands bc the Naked line is supposed to be a really good line as far as quality and the vape Dudes was a 'Naturals' flavor. I honestly didn't think anyone would look into it, that wasn't my intention, sorry about that.

I got Lava Flow from Naked (70/30 but added VG to it to make it closer to Max VG), Island Coconut from vape Dudes (Max VG) and Banana Coconut Breeze from Ritual Peace (Max VG).

Also, I talked to the guy that has the 'Funky Monkey' (I LOVE saying the name, I LOVE monkeys LOL), the banana coconut that I got yesterday, said they use Flavor Apprentice (TFA?) 'Coconut Candy'. That's the one that I'm (still) not having any issues with.

 

[IDJoel]

I think I'm starting to figure out that I MAY need to have at least a small amount of PG in my juices, when I was cutting the juices that were too sweet with just the VG, it wasn't doing a whole lot, or at least it took quite a bit more than expected,

Keep your basic math in mind. If I take 5mL of e-liquid, and want to dilute it by 50%, I have to add another 5mL of diluent (VG; in your case), and end up with 10mL of new product. If I want to dilute it by 75%, I have to add THREE times that much (or 15mL) to that same original 5mL, and now have 20mL.

This is why I am always harping at you to work with SMALL volumes. If you are not paying attention, to your volumes and ratios, you can easily burn through a bunch of your supplies before you realize it.

If I use my previous example, and I wanted to cut an existing e-liquid, I might only start with 1mL of e-liquid and 1mL of VG, to end up with 2mL of 50% dilution. Then, if it needed further diluting, I would take only 1 mL of the 50% diluted, and add another 1mL of VG to get to the same 75% dilution, but only have 2mL of end product. The benefit is that I have only used a TOTAL of 5mL of my original e-liquid, and ONLY 2mL of my VG. It conserves my resources much more efficiently, and doesn't leave me with a bunch of less than desirable product. Once I figure out what I do like it diluted to (assuming I like it diluted at all)' then I can start making bigger batches.

but I'm also having some issues with wicking, so adding a SMALL amount of PG might be the best option for both of those problems.

PG would certainly help thin the viscosity (thickness) of a high VG e-liquid, and make it wick better, provided you can keep it to levels that don't irritate you. Distilled water (DW) is something else you could try, and is often used by those with PG sensitivities. From what I have been able to read, they will use it ranging from 3% to 10% (or more).

If you are going to experiment with DW, as usual, start at the low end, and work your way up as needed.

My own experience with DW, as well as a lot of what I have read, finds that too much DW will lead to a vape with a lot of "popping" and spitting, as well as a flavor that tastes "watery." So start LOW (and in very SMALL amounts).

 

[MrsP0721]

Just got off the phone with the owner of the other vape shop and he said he uses Flavor West coconut. He also told me that they use pineapple in that one as well so I thought that maybe it could be pineapple causing the issue, but I called Vape Dudes as well and their Island Coconut is just straight natural coconut. But look at me being all vape detectivey LOL.

 

[MrsP0721]

If you are going to experiment with DW, as usual, start at the low end, and work your way up as needed.

I think that's why I messed up some of my other stuff, I think I added too much DW and it just tasted, well, watered down lol.

So today, I've talked to 3 of the 4 juices that have coconut... I think I'm getting somewhere! I have no idea how to get ahold of the Naked company thought.

 

[IDJoel]

I honestly didn't think anyone would look into it, that wasn't my intention, sorry about that.

No worries; I wasn't scolding. It is just when you are asking for help to figure something out, the more detail you can provide, the more likely (and the faster) you may get a useful answer.

Also, I talked to the guy that has the 'Funky Monkey' (I LOVE saying the name, I LOVE monkeys LOL), the banana coconut that I got yesterday, said they use Flavor Apprentice (TFA?) 'Coconut Candy'. That's the one that I'm (still) not having any issues with.

That is a great name. I am wondering if he really meant TFA Coconut Candy, or TFA DX Coconut Candy? The "regular" CC contains both acetoin, and acetyl propionyl (the "A" and "AP" in DDAAP); whereas the DX version contains neither. Curious...

For TFA Coconut Candy:

(Source)

For TFA Coconut Candy:

(Source)

 

[MrsP0721]

I am wondering if he really meant TFA Coconut Candy, or TFA DX Coconut Candy? The "regular" CC contains both acetoin, and acetyl propionyl (the "A" and "AP" in DDAAP); whereas the DX version contains neither.

Yea, I looked it up and saw that as well... Interesting either way bc it's the ONLY coconut flavor that hasn't bothered me, like I still haven't had ANYTHING unusual happening with this one!

I'm curious to know if it was diacetyl that caused the problem before... heck at this point, it seems like it could have been any number of things! I don't remember what juice is was that caused the problem now bc it's been so long ago, but with these recent findings with the PG and coconut flavors, it could have been something else entirely!

 

[IDJoel]

Just got off the phone with the owner of the other vape shop and he said he uses Flavor West coconut.

Did he say which specific coconut; they currently offer 3: Coconut, Creamy Coconut, and Coconut Cream Pie? 2 are DDAAP free; one is not (Creamy Coconut).

He also told me that they use pineapple in that one as well so I thought that maybe it could be pineapple causing the issue,

It's possible. DDAAP is not common in pineapples (in general) but there is something indeed that I find unpleasant/discomforting in many of them. And did he say, or you ask which specific pineapple? Sometimes mixers won't want to give detailed info to "protect the recipe," but it doesn't hurt to ask... and it is the only real way to zero in on the individual problem child.

but I called Vape Dudes as well and their Island Coconut is just straight natural coconut. But look at me being all vape detectivey LOL

Were they unwilling to share which coconut (starting to see the pattern here?)?

But, yes; you are getting the idea. You just need more details, details, details (at least until they tell you they won't tell you anymore).

Also, here are the two sources I used for TFA and FW, so you can take your "detecting" to the next level:
TFA SDS and Certificates of Analysis (COA)(use the "COMPONENTS"/List column for detailed list)

Flavor West Diacetyl , Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl Ingredient List

I think that's why I messed up some of my other stuff, I think I added too much DW and it just tasted, well, watered down lol.

Yep. Joel's mantra: "small quantities; minimum percentages" Repeat... repeat... repeat...

So today, I've talked to 3 of the 4 juices that have coconut... I think I'm getting somewhere! I have no idea how to get ahold of the Naked company thought.

Naked 100 is part of "The Schwartz E-liquid" company. I would start there.

 

[IDJoel]

Yea, I looked it up and saw that as well... Interesting either way bc it's the ONLY coconut flavor that hasn't bothered me, like I still haven't had ANYTHING unusual happening with this one!

Unless he is willing to be specific, you are not going to know if one, or both are "safe" for you (short of trying both).

I'm curious to know if it was diacetyl that caused the problem before... heck at this point, it seems like it could have been any number of things! I don't remember what juice is was that caused the problem now bc it's been so long ago, but with these recent findings with the PG and coconut flavors, it could have been something else entirely!

Yup! Simply "guessing;" doesn't do any good. If anything, it often lends itself to unwanted confusion, and paranoia.

That is one of the nice things, once you begin to DIY; you can work with your ingredients in logical steps, and pretty quickly figure out, what is "good," and what is "bad," for you. Just buy everything in SMALL sizes until you know they are not going to be a problem for you. You don't want a bunch of supplies that make you feel bad! You can always get larger sizes once you know you like them.

 

[MrsP0721]

Did he say which specific coconut; they currently offer 3: Coconut, Creamy Coconut, and Coconut Cream Pie? 2 are DDAAP free; one is not (Creamy Coconut).

I'm sure it's the 'coconut' bc that's what he said. That guy I know really well, if it was creamy or cream pie, he would have said. He asked me to come in so we can sit and test some stuff out, he's the one that helped me figure out my PG issue. He said he wants to make up a batch of that same juice, without the coconut and see if it still bothers me. He also told me that he does push the % of coconut (meaning he uses a high %) in that particular juice. He also said he could make up some of just the coconut and see how that goes if I wanted, but we're going to try the juice without the coconut first!

And did he say, or you ask which specific pineapple? Sometimes mixers won't want to give detailed info to "protect the recipe," but it doesn't hurt to ask... and it is the only real way to zero in on the individual problem child.

I think we can eliminate the pineapple all together since Vape Dudes' juice doesn't even use pineapple.

Were they unwilling to share which coconut (starting to see the pattern here?)?

I didn't even ask him what brand of coconut, when I called I was just curious about the pineapple, I was satisfied with the fact that it was a natural extract. To be honest, by the time I called them, I didn't care too much about which coconut bc I already know what to avoid for the most part, I'm ok avoiding natural coconut extracts and coconut from Flavor West. I know I CAN use TFA's coconut candy, obviously I don't know which one and I'm sure the guy I talked to didn't even think about if there was a V1 and V2, but I can easily go back up there (or call) and check now that I know that there is. He was chatting with someone else in the store when I asked (once they stopped, I'm not THAT rude LOL) and he immediately went to the back to read the bottle, so yea, he might not have thought about it in the moment.

But, yes; you are getting the idea. You just need more details, details, details (at least until they tell you they won't tell you anymore).

That's on ME, bc they were all more than happy to tell me/answer my questions. I know all 3 of them pretty well, so I trust them. I guess I just don't know what to ask for. I asked for the brand/type of coconut and they told me, so yea, that's totally on me.

Also, here are the two sources I used for TFA and FW, so you can take your "detecting" to the next level:
TFA SDS and Certificates of Analysis (COA)(use the "COMPONENTS"/List column for detailed list)

Flavor West Diacetyl , Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl Ingredient List

Oh, awesome, I love research (like, for real, that wasn't sarcastic, my family calls me the 'research Queen' and call me anytime they need information on ANYTHING lol)! I'll definitely check that out!!

 

[IDJoel]

He asked me to come in so we can sit and test some stuff out, he's the one that helped me figure out my PG issue. He said he wants to make up a batch of that same juice, without the coconut and see if it still bothers me. He also told me that he does push the % of coconut (meaning he uses a high %) in that particular juice. He also said he could make up some of just the coconut and see how that goes if I wanted, but we're going to try the juice without the coconut first!

Sounds like a great starting point, and a wonderful all-around resource if he is willing, for all things DIY. Be sure to let us know how it works out for you!

 

[MrsP0721]

definitely! I'm so glad that he's so willing to help me!

 

[IDJoel]

Since you like to cook, you might bring a small plate of cookies, to keep the "rivers of kindness" flowing; works really good on guys that are bachelors, or spend all of their time at work!
(Oh; and don't forget a notebook!)

 

[MrsP0721]

Since you like to cook, you might bring a small plate of cookies, to keep the "rivers of kindness" flowing; works really good on guys that are bachelors, or spend all of their time at work!
(Oh; and don't forget a notebook!)

LOL That's a great idea!

 

[go_player]

I hear what you're saying; I think this is one we will have to agree to disagree about. I would not be at all surprised if the "shisha" might not disappear at more reasonable levels.

OK, well I certainly can't argue with your subjective experience of a flavor (especially an INW flavor at such a high percentage.) I'm happy to agree to disagree about the subjective, but there is a point here that is objective- I could be wrong about it (though I don't think I am,) but it's not a matter of opinion. And that is: the INW Shisha flavors, despite the name, are not generally meant to be tobacco flavors and are not generally meant to have tobacco notes in them. I don't mean to rudely belabor the point, but the naming is confusing and I wouldn't want anyone who, for instance, disliked all tobacco flavors to avoid them because of that.

I would be curious, if you had a momentary lapse of all common sense (), and were to mix up a very small (0.5-1.0mL?) tester of INW-S.S. at 14%, if you would not also get the shisha component that I got. But PLEASE don't trash you own palate to satisfy MY curiousity... it IS pretty nasty.

Hmm- well I'll at least consider it the next time I mix... I don't look forward to the prospect though. I'll let you know how it goes.

That would be an interesting topic. "What "flavors" do you use for other than just adding flavor; and what do you use them for? That is one I would follow for sure! Go for it!

Yeah, I think it's actually a really interesting topic, and a lot of what makes mixing so interesting, IMHO. Even flavors you'd use at higher percentages for flavor can be used for other things at lower percentages, and sometimes the line is hard to draw.

 

[go_player]

It's funny you mention vaper's tongue bc that's a problem that plagues me frequently! I have always asked for, and vaped, really strong flavors thinking that would help with my vaper's tongue, but I'm learning since looking into this whole DIY thing, that I may have had it backwards this whole time! Wouldn't that be a great added bonus, less vaper's tongue bc I'm using less flavor! Could I really be so lucky? lol

I think it's very possible that you could be . Different concentrates vary greatly in strength, and different palates vary greatly in their native acuitt, so talking absolute percentages isn't always very meaningful, but... I found, after a while, that turning the percentages down from what you'll find on a lot of sites (especially the site that can't be named) can actually increase your perception of flavor, and definitely, in my experience, leads to less vaper's tongue.

I think one important thing to understand is that the total flavoring you want to wind up with has to do not just with the strengths of the concentrates you use, but with how many similar or identical molecules the ones you se share.

Let's say I have a fruit flavor that I think is a fine standalone flavor at 4%. And I have a cream flavor I think is good at 4%. I can likely make a juice I will like with 4% of each, and not have it be over-flavored, even if 8% of either would be a nightmare. I might even be able to add a bakery of similar strength at 4% and be at 12% total flavoring with some strong flavors and have it be OK (though by that point I'd probably want to scale them all back some, according to the needs of the recipe, though not proportionally to the number used, and not equally, again depending on the needs of the recipe.)

On the other hand, let's say I started with that first fruit at 4% and then used two similar supporting fruits with it, of similar strength, with similar flavors. Using all three at 4% each might be just as bad as using the first at 12%, because they would either share identical molecules or have similar molecules that acted on the same receptors. This is the starting point for thinking about what people call 'layering' in mixing, and I think it's very hard to come up with successful "complex" mixes without bearing this in mind.

The thing is, it can be hard to know which flavors share similar molecules and hit the same receptors from their names, and even from substantial experience with them as stand-alones or in mixes. TFA is really good about posting their ingredients, so... speaking of coconut, their "Coconut Extra" contains a _lot_ of gamma-octalactone. Which of their other flavors do? Even with their transparency I don't know how to search for that information easily. I took a guess and found that their Sweet Cream does, but at such a low percentage that it by itself is not likely to stack badly with Coconut Extra. But what about other lactones? Can you tell if another lactone is going to stack badly with gamma-octalactone? I can't, that's for sure, off the top of my head... And what about other companies that only publish SMDSs?

So really, IMHO, the only way to deal with this is to go slowly, and start with conservative levels of flavors, especially when mixing them. And play with fewer flavors at first, and then combine combinations. Because, while it's not surprising that a coconut and a cream share a molecule, there are lots of cases that are surprising. And when you have eight flavors in a recipe it can be difficult to tell which two are stepping on each other. And they _do_ step on each other, all the time, which is what makes mixing fun, but also what can make it very frustrating.

 

[go_player]

Learn from someone who did it the wrong way (me; if you haven't guessed). Shortly after I started my own journey, I got so excited, and ordered over 80 different concentrates with no idea how I wanted to use them. I just kept reading recipes, reviews of recipes, flavor reviews, discussions of how others were getting good results using specific flavors, and I made lists of all these flavors.

Yup, I probably have more flavors than is absolutely necessary (I am at least occasionally a master of understatement, btw.) I do kind of like having them, because it means that when I see people post recipes I want to try I often can without having to order new flavors. But I've had a few fairly good years recently (not the case when I started vaping, when I had to count every penny) so it's not a big deal if I waste a bit of money on flavors here and there. If you are counting your pennies it's likely to pay to be fairly selective. You don't _have_ to make every intriguing recipe featuring 7 niche flavors you don't have.

I would advise shopping by recipe though- pick a few highly rated ones that appeal to you, are from a few different profiles, and use versatile flavors, but share some flavors, and order just the flavors you need for those recipes, in small sizes.

"Need" might be a bit strong, but it sure is a great way to do it, especially since you are just starting out. It develops good habits, gives useful feedback (both to you, and allows you to communicate more specific information to us), and will keep you from ending up like me.

I don't know that you _need_ to single-flavor test if you are purely following other people's recipes, and you like them enough to not want to adjust them. It's kind of hard to make your own recipes, or even adjust recipes, without single-flavor testing.

It's kind of like cooking- I can taste something I'm cooking and adjust the onion and garlic in it because I know how they taste at different levels, and can tell when those levels are not what i want- I might not have single-flavor tested them, but I have a lifetime of experience eating them and cooking with them to draw on. But imagine truing to adjust the levels of ingredients in a chicken cacciatore by taste never having tasted chicken, tomato, onion or garlic... you could play with the levels till it tasted right, but you might wind up throwing away a lot of cacciatore.

And in line with what IDJoel said about small bites... there are a number of very good, very versatile flavors that make good stand-alones not just for testing, but for vaping. When I started vaping there weren't a lot of complicated juices at my price-point. There was "Apple," which was some awful Chinese flavor (DeKang?) mixed too high.

But now- honestly, FA Fuji standalone, for instance, is pretty good. You could get that, and a couple of other flavors that make good standalone juice, and vape pretty well for a while just mixing them individually finding the percentages you like. Not suggesting that's all you should do, but it's food for thought, I guess.

No matter how you decide to mix, PLEASE remember to start with SMALL amounts. 3-5mL single flavor samples are AMPLE for tasting

Good advice here. Worth noting that you may have to dilute some stronger concentrates. It is not at all easy to make 3 mills of _anything_ using FLV Rich Cinnamon without diluting it first, regardless of whether you mix by weight or volume.