Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

[VNeil]

Let's get this thread back on track with an update on some of my samples.

These are the ones I've got in Florida. The idea behind this set of samples is to look at whether re-bottling in glass is better or worse than leaving nic base in its original PET plastic container.

Note that due to a power outage after Hurricane Irma, the "F" (freezer) did assume ambient temperature for approximately 1 week last month, and the "RT" (room temperature) samples spent the same amount of time at somewhat warmer temps than they usually would.

Let's start with daylight pics:

And reversing the PET/glass order just to try to eliminate position-dependent lighting effects:

The shorter frozen bottle (2nd from right on lower image) appears stgratified, clear at the bottom. Is that just an artifact of the image and lighting? Are the taller bottles plastic and the short bottles glass?

ETA: Your backlit pics crossed... the refrigerated versions seem identical?

 

[Rossum]

The shorter frozen bottle (2nd from right on lower image) appears stgratified, clear at the bottom. Is that just an artifact of the image and lighting? Are the taller bottles plastic and the short bottles glass?

Yes, taller bottles are the original PET plastic that the samples arrived in and have never been opened since receipt. All I did to them is tighten the lids a bit more and add the white tape.

As for stratification, I don't see anything like that with my Mk.1 eyeballs, so I believe it is an artifact of the lighting and/or camera.

ETA: Your backlit pics crossed... the refrigerated versions seem identical?

Not sure what you're trying to tell me here. First pic has plastic in the center, glass on the outside, and second pic has them reversed.

 

[440BB]

It appears rebottling into glass is most valuable when storing at room temperature so far. I'm suspecting the porosity of plastic combined with higher molecular activity at room temp is the culprit. Very interesting!

 

[puffon]

I just wonder about long term, 5-10+ years if PET is a concern.
pet plastic leching chemicals - Google Search
Some say it's fine, others not so much.

 

[stols001]

Thank you for your efforts @Rossum ! Someone stated (I can't remember if it was on this thread, that with nic salts, oxidization isn't a worry? Could someone explain that better to me please, also I was assuming the lack of oxidation in my new mixes that are exclusively DIY was due to brown glass bottles, but seriously, some of the nic I purchased early on has gone several shades darker by now, even in a dark room (this came in plastic bottles). I'm kind of confused/curious on this one and don't think I'll be removing my nic from the freezer just yet, but I am wondering about that.

Anyone know more? ETA: I'm sure degradation is an issue still, right, not just oxidation?

Anna

 

[VNeil]

also I was assuming the lack of oxidation in my new mixes that are exclusively DIY was due to brown glass bottles
Anna

I have a particular mix that darkens rather quickly (a couple months, maybe) with only 3mg nic. And that recipe darkens seriously, not just a little. But bottles stored without nic are original color (as best I can recall) after even a year. From that I concluded that nic oxidizes or does something to some particular flavoring or combination of flavorings in that recipe. I have seen this effect in many or maybe most of my recipes, but there is that one that I always keep on hand in good quantity that really stood out to me. And most of my juice, and all my bulk juice is stored in brown bottles, never clear. I don't even own any clear Boston Rounds.

For that reason I store bulk mixes (more than 100ml) with zero nic, and then nic as needed in smaller bottles I vape from (unless I want some 0mg juice, shich I do vape from time to time). I can't say the nic degraded but I just prefer to retain the original, usually fairly light color of the recipe.

"I'm kind of confused/curious on this one and don't think I'll be removing my nic from the freezer just yet, but I am wondering about that."

If you have room in your freezer I think you should keep your concentrated nic there. Not sure why you are considering removing it?

 

[stols001]

Well, mainly I was curious about the oxidation part, as someone mentioned that with nic salts, that isn't so much of an issue? I figure my nic will remain frozen, to avoid degradation either way, I was curious if the oxidation process is slowed using nic salts vs regular nic.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

Sorry folks, I got distracted with other stuff before I could write up a synopsis of the picture data I posted on the previous page. This set of sample is just shy 4-1/2 months old, having been "put up" on June 1st. Pics here, and an update in early August here.

• Just like with the PA samples, there's no question that the Freezer samples have fared much better than the Room Temperature samples. However, the week or so that the Freezer samples spent at ambient due to a power outage doesn't seem to have had a big effect. So keeping your nic base in the freezer is a good idea, but buying a back-up generator probably isn't necessary or cost-effective.
  
  
• PET Plastic vs. Glass: My original thought was that re-bottling might be a bad idea because it exposes the nic to additional air/oxygen vs. just leaving it in the bottles it comes in. Well, it's starting to look like that's not the case, at least for the Room Temperature samples. It's readily apparent that the nic in the never-opened PET bottle is darker than the one I re-bottled in glass. With the freezer samples, it's rather more ambiguous. Neither of those has darkened enough to make any real judgement.

Samples are now back in the freezer and cupboard respectively. I intend to keep them under evaluation until next June at the very minimum.

 

[Rossum]

Someone stated (I can't remember if it was on this thread, that with nic salts, oxidization isn't a worry?

I have little experience with salts, and none with storage thereof, but color me skeptical.

 

[DaveP]

Rossum, sorry for the side track here on your thread. I see now that mg/ml is the only way to describe a mix's nic level since nic percentage confuses the issue depending on the nic base level used. I'll stick to mg/ml to describe nic strength in a particular recipe.

I'm enjoying your pics of nic oxidation or lack of it.

ETA:
FWIW, I got 7 full 8oz glass bottles plus an almost full 4oz glass bottle from my two liters. That's after 14 to 15 months of mixing at 3mg strength and vaping 10ml to 12ml of juice a day. The full bottles were filled to where the top curve meets the straight up part under the cap. Considering that a liter is 33.8 ounces that would indicate that at 3ml/ml mix strength I have vaped ...

67.6ml - 59ml = 8.6ml (+/- vaped in 14 months)

67.6ml / 8ml = 8.45 years DIY on two liters of nic at 3mg/ml. (approximation)

That agrees pretty closely with the nic calculators projection of approximately 9 years on two liters using my usage level projections.

 

[DaveP]

I just noticed that I use ML to denote the amounts in my nic life projection where I had calculated the amount in ounces, but the usage life numbers are still good. It should have been ounces used since I converted liters to ounces. The numbers should still be good for years of vaping on the two liters. I should be using about one 8oz bottle of 100mg nic base per year.

 

[Katya]

Rossum dear, I just discovered two bottles of NN VG and PG (no nic, just pure diluents) hidden in my closet. Checked my orders on their website, and they are two years old. I completely forgot about them--I usually store everything in my freezer. Should I just chuck them and get new ones? Any thoughts? Anyone? Two years at room temp might be pushing it.

 

[stols001]

Oh, you did. Good (post here I mean). Someone told me 2 years for VG (unrefrigerated) not sure about PG.

Anna

 

[Burnie]

Rossum dear, I just discovered two bottles of NN VG and PG (no nic, just pure diluents) hidden in my closet. Checked my orders on their website, and they are two years old. I completely forgot about them--I usually store everything in my freezer. Should I just chuck them and get new ones? Any thoughts? Anyone? Two years at room temp might be pushing it.

I would not worry about it if they look ok. PG & VG do not react the way NIC does and oxidize. I just keep mine on the shelf and have not had any problems. JMHO

 

[Katya]

Oh, you did. Good (post here I mean). Someone told me 2 years for VG (unrefrigerated) not sure about PG.

Anna

I've heard the same, I just have no idea what those answers were based on--speculation or actual testing? It's like expiration dates on meds--most of them are purely arbitrary--pharmaceutical companies want to sell you new stuff and they don't want to pay for long-time tests...

 

[Katya]

I would not worry about it if they look ok. PG & VG do not react the way NIC does and oxidize. I just keep mine on the shelf and have not had any problems. JMHO

TY, Burnie. Just what I thought, but I needed reassurance from the experts.

 

[Rossum]

Rossum dear, I just discovered two bottles of NN VG and PG (no nic, just pure diluents) hidden in my closet. Checked my orders on their website, and they are two years old. I completely forgot about them--I usually store everything in my freezer. Should I just chuck them and get new ones? Any thoughts? Anyone? Two years at room temp might be pushing it.

I agree with Burnie. PG and VG are both very stable compounds and have little tendency to oxidize or otherwise degrade. I've use PG and VG that old (and more) that were at room temperature and can't tell the difference. I also have a doomsday stash of several gallons of both in quart/liter sized glass bottles and I keep them at room temperature.

 

[DaveP]

Katya said: Rossum dear, I just discovered two bottles of NN VG and PG (no nic, just pure diluents) hidden in my closet. Checked my orders on their website, and they are two years old. I completely forgot about them--I usually store everything in my freezer. Should I just chuck them and get new ones? Any thoughts? Anyone? Two years at room temp might be pushing it.

Dow Answer Center
What is the shelf life of PG USP/EP?
Propylene Glycol USP/EP is stable for at least two years when stored at ambient temperatures in closed containers and away from sunlight and other sources of UV light. An ongoing stability test program confirms this shelf life. The shelf life refers to the length of time during which a product complies with its sales specification when stored under appropriate conditions.

ECF thread on VG
What is the shelf life of Vegetable Glycerin?

 

[stols001]

Awesome answer, Dave P. Thanks. It's nice to know shelf life as I made the mistake of ordering a LOT of VG at once, 2.5 gallon's worth. LOL, I did NOT count on it being in ONE vat, however, so I rather swiftly broke it down into smaller containers. 2.5 gallons of VG is heavy. I still may not get all the way through it in 2.5 years.... I tootle puff, LOL. I kind of supposed that refrigerating it (if I even had the space) would be unlikely to do it any good, so it all is sitting in "my" walk in closet and yes it is mine and the husband would not dare venture to that place, he uses one of the other bedrooms-- it's nice to be childless well, no kid at home, as the THIRD bedroom is my husband's lair/study and I most definitely do not venture to that place. It's a bit like that "A Beautiful Mind" movie" only with electronics, bills, and other gadgets. I would have a terrible fear of moving something inadvertently I don't know what most of it is.

IMO, if you are married, you need a "lair" and mine is most definitely my walk in closet...

Anna

 

[Katya]

Thanks, Dave!