Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

[Rossum]

I don't know Rossum, the nic contained in the PET bottle appears slightly darker to me and considering that the PET bottle has a smaller diameter/cross section (we're looking through less liquid) I'd say the difference may already be statistically significant.

I realize it appears that way in the pic, but eyeballing them both, I don't see it. I found out a while back that position and lighting can give this impression in pictures. Unfortunately, I'm not motivated enough to build a light box that would provide even enough illumination to eliminate such effects.

If so, this surprises me because the nic contained in glass received a fresh supply of oxygen when it was re-bottled, that alone should have offset the benefits of glass for many months.

Yep, that's more or less what I was thinking too before I started this sample batch. But as the Germans are fond of saying: "Probieren geht über studieren!"

I'm curious, are you logging ambient temperature differences between your FL and PA storage samples? Does the rate/speed of oxidation seem to be linked to average daily storage temperatures?

No, I'm not logging ambient. Both sets are kept in air-conditioned comfort; low to mid 70F range.

if the goal is long term storage (5-20 years) using airtight containers made of non oxygen permeable material (like glass) might be essential to maintaining a viable (palatable) end product.

Yes, that's clearly the "safest" method, but I'm curious if it actually makes a difference. To that end, I might keep the freezer samples around indefinitely to see what happens.

if 0F is exponentially better than 75F, wouldn't -10F be even better? With exposure to light and oxygen in check, is the ultimate longevity of liquid nic directly linked to the temperature it's stored at?

You know, at one point, I was toying with the idea of buying a 2-stage freezer; one that could get to -40 or more. But at this point, I'm fairly well convinced it's not necessary.

 

[mikepetro]

You know, at one point, I was toying with the idea of buying a 2-stage freezer; one that could get to -40 or more.

High dollar!!!

 

[Rossum]

High dollar!!!

Yep, and not just acquisition either; it looks like those things would have a noticeable effect on one's power bill...

 

[DaveP]

Still watching and enjoying the pics of the results.

 

[Rossum]

With being a bit on edge regarding hurricane Irma for the last week or so, I almost forgot that I really should do on the samples I have here in PA before I head back to my place in FL (assuming there it's still there once Irma is done with the stormy Sunshine State).

First, I pulled out the Room Temperature samples:

Of these, the old PG WL that was rebottled in glass is now the darkest. The two PG nics (TH and Premium) from VT are about the same, while their VG (TH) seems to have darkened the least. Kurt had often suggested that VG would oxidize less than PG due to its higher viscosity. I'm starting to thing there might be something to this theory.

Then I went to tuck these in the fridge so that that they'd be at the same temperature as the freezer samples when I go to take side-by-side pics tomorrow. While I was doing that, had a crazy thought: The LED lighting in there is pretty interesting!

I deliberately put the VG nic in the middle to show the lightness in the previous pic is not an artifact of the position order. The color balance in this pic is obviously completely different due to the LED lighting (which is a bit blueish to the eye) compared to the filtered natural light in the previous pic, but I think we're primarily interested in the amount of darkening, not the exact hue.

In any case, the Freezer samples are now all on the same fridge shelf with the Room Temp samples, so they can all be at the same temperature when I shoot them.

 

[mikepetro]

Not sure if a difference in metamerism means anything important to us or not, although it must mean something.

I have built metamerism booths to meet GM specs, it is amazing how different things can be under different lighting sources.

 

[Rossum]

I let all the samples get to the same temperature in the refrigerator overnight and shot a bunch of pics this afternoon.

I'll start with the four Freezer samples with LED backlighting in the fridge, and there's a couple of the Room Temp samples next to them for contrast:

 

[Rossum]

These are the oldest samples that from Wizard labs that I started this thread with. To jog people's memory, that was just a bit more than 6 moths ago.

Here they are with LED backlighting in the fridge:

and on the usual white background with natural light:

 

[Rossum]

Next up, Vapers Tek TH nic in VG. All the VT samples were fresh when received the 3rd week of March (post #78).

 

[Rossum]

VT TH in PG:

 

[Rossum]

And finally VT Premium in PG:

 

[Rossum]

In My Opinion:

• The Room Temperature samples have all continued to darken some, but the rate has slowed.
• The Freezer samples are all essentially unchanged from "as received" or "as bottled" condition.
• The VG nic has darkened less than any of the PG nics.

Unfortunately Hurricane Irma has probably invalidated my Florida samples -- I know my place down there has no power and it would not surprise me if that didn't change for a week or more, so the freezer set there will be coming up to room temperature (whatever that is w/o AC). I'll report on those when I get back down there after the power comes back on. Then again, the primary purpose of that sample set was to see if there's a difference between rebottling in glass vs. keeping the nic in its original PET bottles....

 

[ChelsB]

Fascinating! Thank you for providing this very valuable information!

 

[mikepetro]

Yep, loving my little baby nic freezer even more now....

 

[mikepetro]

If there is a dif in rebottling, its not much at all in the freezer.

 

[Mowgli]

One of my friends is moving out of the house he's lived in for 40+ years.
He has too much stuff to move so he gave me
A 3.6 sq ft chest freezer
A dorm fridge
A shopworthy microscope
Glad I could help a brother out

Medium Priority box holds 15 x 260ml bottles = 3.9L =
I can fit at least another gallon in there than the 2.5 that are in my fridge freezer

 

[Mowgli]

I got that freezer to the basement today and got it chilly. -10F kind of chilly.
It might really be less, I only left the thermometer in there for about 15 minutes.
EDIT - I left the thermometer in for 1/2 hour and it got down to -16F

The fridge freezer is leveling off at +8F. How cold is good for a fridge freezer?
I know below 32F is a good start but what's ideal for a general purpose kitchen freezer?
EDIT - Mr. Google says 0F or below is good for kitchen freezer temp.
I left the TM in there longer and got 2F so OK by me.

I'm pretty happy with the -16F from that chest freezer.
What temp did @Kurt say is ideal for long term nicotine storage?

 

[Rossum]

What temp did @Kurt say is ideal for long term nicotine storage?

The colder, the better.

 

[sofarsogood]

In My Opinion:

• The Room Temperature samples have all continued to darken some, but the rate has slowed.
• The Freezer samples are all essentially unchanged from "as received" or "as bottled" condition.
• The VG nic has darkened less than any of the PG nics.

Unfortunately Hurricane Irma has probably invalidated my Florida samples -- I know my place down there has no power and it would not surprise me if that didn't change for a week or more, so the freezer set there will be coming up to room temperature (whatever that is w/o AC). I'll report on those when I get back down there after the power comes back on. Then again, the primary purpose of that sample set was to see if there's a difference between rebottling in glass vs. keeping the nic in its original PET bottles....

May be preserve the samples compromised by the storm and keep them in the refrigerator instead of the freezer. Or put them back at freezing temperatures and just reccord that they spent some time at room temperature. I expect that over the years I'll be tending my stash there will be power outages or other reasons why my nic is not at freezing temperatures at all times.

 

[CliffCavin]

Back in July 2014 I bought 4 liters of 100mg nic from Heartland Vapes. I paid $70/Liter which at the time seemed like a steal, although soon after that it seemed that everybody was selling at $50-60. So much for my investment skills.

I put 3 of the liters into the freezer as is, without breaking it down to smaller bottles. One of the liters I broke down to 60ml clear bottles that also went into the freezer. But, I kept out a single 10ml bottle and set it on a shelf with no freezing or refrigerating. I was curious to see how this 10ml bottle would change with age.

After a little over 3 years the bottles in the freezer are still perfectly clear. The unfrozen 10ml bottle has become yellow, but not nearly as much as I thought it would. I have bought nic since then that was darker than that when it arrived in my mailbox.

My take on all of this:
* Nic kept in the freezer in a well sealed bottle will last almost indefinately.
* Nic set out on the shelf is perfectly good for at least several years, and smokable for far longer than that.

My 10ml test bottle has never gotten hot as I live in Ohio and have an air conditioned house. I would bet that the aging process would accelerate considerably if it was kept in a garage or shed.

Conclusion: The nic I bought from Heartland was far better/fresher than some othe nic I have bought elsewhere. I will never need to buy nic ever again.

Cliff