****nic in Want2Vape Louisville?

Discussion in 'Medical Research' started by gorman, Jun 14, 2013.

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  1. gorman

    gorman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    A very recent study conducted in Italy by the Pharmacology department of Naples University has found Want2Vape Louisville containing 113.74 mcg/10ml of ****nic.
    A level which is dangerously close to the limits of absorption by the human body in liquid form. Now, no information is available regarding absorption through soft tissues and lungs but, as a point of reference, a Dekang liquid (Ginseng) was found containing 0.15 mcg/10ml of ****nic. Do with this what you will. Thought it was relevant.

    Metalli e veleni nei liquidi qualche chiarimento | Esigarettanews Sigaretta Elettronica Blog

    Unfortunately almost everything in the above link is in Italian.

    As a consequence to these findings, Mondosvapo.com which distributed W2V liquids in Italy, has undefinitely suspended sales of the aforementioned liquids.
     
  2. CES

    CES optimistic cynic Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    It's worth using google translate....the link actually compared the concentrations reported with those found in fruits and vergatables. the bottom line is that yes, the liquids should be tested, but the results need to be reported with context to avoid alarmism.

     
  3. gorman

    gorman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Yes, exactly. Forgot to mention that my posting this here was mainly for giving W2V a chance to answer and make them aware of what's happening in our country.
     
  4. CES

    CES optimistic cynic Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Ah, thanks. I'm not sure whether or not they can post in here. Suppliers are somewhat restricted to where they're allowed to post. But it's good info for all of us.
     
  5. crazyhorseiam

    crazyhorseiam Full Member Verified Member

    as i thought and posted in esn forum as soon as i read that, socalled, news: ****nic is (together with cadmium, lead, chrome etc) a well known essence in most commercial tobaccoes like cigarettes, cigars etc
    I suppose that Louisville is (as many others) a tobacco maceration derived eliquid which ****nic is, matter of fact, released into the pg/vg combination, unlikely to be separated and removed subsequently

    but this guess was not suggested nor even disclosed in that news by "Il Salvagente", with the obvious intention to demonize eliquids and alarm careless readers (something that really happens these days)

    just my 0.02
     
  6. gorman

    gorman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    That's mentioned as a possibility in the link I posted.
     
  7. crazyhorseiam

    crazyhorseiam Full Member Verified Member

    as i wrote before, it's not mentioned in the study-news reported by "il salvagente" but only as a guess by me and danielino in esn and esf
     
  8. anavidfan

    anavidfan Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Like someone above mentioned ****nic is found in many fruits and vegetables. If the makers of the juice use natural or organic flavours that could be the reason. Apples are a common fruit we eat and yes if someone knew how, you could serve up a "killer" apple pie. THe percentage is sooooo minimal you would have to drink bottles of it to get sick.

    I also believe that ****nic used to be prescribed by doctors to treat ailments in the 1800s. I have not read the article but it does not alarm me.
     
  9. snork

    snork Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    This has been one of the things that has always bothered me about the trend towards macerations and extracted tobacco flavors - how do we know what's coming along for the ride? I know nothing about the veracity of this particular report or if it's in any way concerning, but doesn't it make you wonder if a purely synthetic and chemically verifiable flavoring would always be the "safest" option?
     
  10. crazyhorseiam

    crazyhorseiam Full Member Verified Member

    that's why i only vape "chemical" liquids (i make my own liquids from chemical flavours) instead of "organics" even if i was addicted to virgin vapor's juices: i made a choice which i consider better and, obviously, cheaper. I disagree with tobacco's maceration for that reason besides i don't like that particular taste

    noone can really say what will be diluted after a maceration process if not with a complete analysis of the composition
     
  11. gorman

    gorman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Anyone knows how to attract W2V attention to this post? I would love to have a statement from them.
     
  12. snork

    snork Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    It's odd that this doesn't seem to be something in which people are interested. By god if a cat hair is stuck to the label of a bottle you sure hear about it.
     
  13. MsComptrtchr

    MsComptrtchr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I'm going to email them. I just won a bottle of EcoBerry from want2vape in a vapemeet raffle and it is fantastic. It tastes like real berries, not artificial. I found this post when I searched on the company (of whom I hadn't heard until today.) I will be emailing them for feedback. Will get back to this thread when I hear from them.
     
  14. DonleyDoRight

    DonleyDoRight Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Greetings All,
    First thank you MsComptrtchr for bringing this thread to our attention. I will be monitoring it from now on.
    Second, Mr. Moderator PLEASE don't sanction me for this informative reply.

    We at want2vape have been in conversation with Alessandro of MondosVapo for the last 2 weeks explaining our position on his finding.
    I really don't know how he even had enough product to test after not ordering for over a year and a half. But we have heard through various European forums that our wares are being diluted. But anyway,

    Here is what we have found to be the case with NETs and our Chemical Engineers (J.D., B.S.Ch.E., ) reply.
    (This is a direct cut and paste from our emails with many reference links included)


    Greetings Alessandro ,

    Thank you for sending the lab reports.
    Pretty much as I described below is what our Chemical Engineer said as well.


    This is what he (our Chemical Engineer) has to say:

    Take a look at this spreadsheet showing the numbers from that Italian lab assay and some reported tobacco values along with some maximum daily exposure values. I included the citation. The fact that there are metals in the sample is not surprising at all, since it is a natural extract process. You have very small particles of the plant tissue present, obviously and you concentrate certain elements by the extraction process. Looks like the ****nic might be around 5 ug/mL in water solubility naturally. I'm not surprised either that PG could, if exposed to the plant fibers a sufficient time, concentrate As. If that's the case, you would appear to be doing a 10-to-1 concentration.
    But, you have to basically drink the eJuice to get exposure because it has such low volatility that it is not going to vaporize. That crusty crap that kills attys certainly has carbon and other non-volatiles. You simply cannot analyze eJuice and correlate that to what is vaporized. Most all metals do not vaporize, except in very special conditions, usually very high temperatures, which are not present in a standard atty.

    Bottom line is, ok, these are natural elements present in the plants. You have a natural extraction procedure that might (might) concentrate some, but most are not. These compounds are not volatile and form part of carbon-crusties that kill your atty.

    Lab Assay Liquid Lab Assay Tobacco Tobacco Avg. Dietary
    eJuice Density eJuice High Low Reported Exposure
    ug/ml g/ml ug/g ug/ml ug/ml ug/g ug/day 5 mg/L
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lead 0.672 1.05 0.640 0.32 41 0.005 mg/mL
    Cadmium 0.066 1.05 0.063 1.05 19.5
    Chromium 0.0222 1.05 0.021 3 0.1 1.6 35
    Zinc 0.896 1.05 0.853 31 17
    Nickel 0.164 1.05 0.156 2.05 150
    ****nic 11.374 1.05 10.832 1 1 0.21 56
    Copper 0.0126 1.05 0.012

    http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2012/10/low-trace-metal-levels-in-american.html


    So tell me just how much of our Vapenstein Blend do you have in stock?
    And why are you only now testing it after 1.5 years?

    Donley



    From: mailto:contact@want2vape.com
    Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 1:40 PM
    To: info@mondosvapo.com
    Subject: Re: Customer Comments from want2vape

    Greetings Alessandro good to hear from you.

    First, We would like a copy (translated if possible) of this lab report as we are as concerned as yourself.
    We are particularly concerned as to the testing methodology ( light and electron microscopy, cytotoxicity testing, and x-ray microanalysis or graphite furnace-atomic absorption spectrometry (GFAAS) ) as well as the levels of concentration.

    Also why did you have these tested? You haven't ordered from us in over a year. Are you trying to replicate them?
    I’m surprised you had any left to test.

    But all that aside, here is some info for you to read.


    ALL tobaccos contain trace amounts of heavy metals (1) as these are natural products not synthetically produced flavors. And it can vary from country to country.
    And can be higher when vaped as well (2)

    And our Signature blends (formally named Vapenstein Blends) are made from Natural tobaccos with NO artificial ingredients.
    Our base PG & VG are ALL USP/ Kosher certified.
    The only exception in any of our ingredients is the nicotine which is manufactured in Europe., everything else in manufactured in the USA. As even nicotine claimed to be produced in the USA is only marked as made here and in actuality manufactured in India, Belgium and Germany. Ours contain apx. 200 times less (metals) than allowed.

    And our nicotine contains close to the same levels found in pharmaceutical nicotine products like nicotine patches and inhalers.
    (See the attached COA) And contain the same amount allowed in Europe in concentrated fruit juices. (3)


    Nicotine by it’s very nature in it’s concentrated form contains higher levels than found in the same volume of tobacco as pure nicotine is a 3333% concentration. However our lab assays show our nicotine is well within the GRAS limits.

    And we know many of your customers dilute the vapenstein blends to 25% from reading the forums so the levels of metals would be 25% of whatever lab assay states.


    Have a great day, we look forward to your lab report.

    Donley


    1
    Levels of Heavy Metals in Popular Cigarette Brands and Exposure to These Metals via Smoking

    High amounts of heavy metals found in China tobacco | Reuters

    HEAVY METAL (Cd, Cu, Pb, Cr, Zn, Hg) CONCENTRATIONS IN TOBACCO OF COMMONLY SMOKED CIGARETTE BRANDS PURCHASED IN GERMANY, CHINA, RUSSIA, INDIA AND CANADA

    http://www.agr.uth.gr/labs/soil/pdfs/pdf14.pdf


    nicotine - Everything 2.com

    2
    Electronic Cigarettes Contain Higher Levels of Toxic Metal

    3
    Consolidated TEXT- 32006R1881 - EN - 01.07.2010 (about half way down the page)
    http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-156.shtml
    http://www.ema.europ...WC500003587.pdf
    http://www.foodquali...oodstuffs_.html
    www.govtlab.gov.hk-g-texchange-Stds for heavy metals.pdf




    From: info@mondosvapo.com
    Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 6:50 AM

    Subject: Customer Comments from want2vape

    action: Information
    first_name: Alessandro
    Last_Name: Crocè
    Company Name: MondoSvapo - Il nuovo mondo dello svapatore di sigaretta elettronica
    Phone:
    Address 1:
    Address 2:
    City:
    State:
    Zip Code:
    Country:
    Email: info@mondosvapo.com
    Reason for contact: Complaint
    subject: vapenstein liquid
    Message: Hello, i'm an old reseller of your liquid vapenstein. An italian laboratory wrote me yesterday, 'cause They found hard metal like lead, and zinc and also ****nic. especially in louisville. Can you send some explanation about this? Thank you in advance.
     
  15. MsComptrtchr

    MsComptrtchr Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    These people are very concerned about their reputation - they responded to my email right away. Please check them out. I really like their EcoBerry (which has not NETs of concern).
     
  16. CES

    CES optimistic cynic Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Thanks for contacting them MsComp

    And thanks for the very informative responses Donely
     
  17. hazarada

    hazarada Super Member ECF Veteran

    limits of absorbtion? your average 1kg of rice contains 20 times more ****nic than that 10ml
     
  18. Ill_Rev_J

    Ill_Rev_J Full Member Verified Member

    Like Donley's chemical engineer said, testing the liquids themselves is basically irrelevant. What has to be tested is the vapor - I don't understand why so many erstwhile scientists don't get the distinction, unless they have a not-so-hidden agenda to discredit vaping. Particularly with regard to the Cr(VI) issue pertaining to the use of SS mesh, I'd like to see samples of vapor drawn through wicks oxidized to various temps, not simply oxidizing a wick and putting it into some solution. The point of these lab tests which is so often missed should be to replicate the conditions of vaping as closely as possible. I personally put no stock in testing of the liquids directly, because I have no plan to drink them whatsoever. Rant over.
     
  19. Mr.Mann

    Mr.Mann Visit the PIF Sub-Forum Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    If you vape tobacco liquid, there's a good chance that your vendor is using flavorings that contain tobacco absolute (an extraction that uses hexane as the solvent, among other methods, but hexane is pretty common for the initial extraction into the tobacco concrete--not concentrate, but concrete--where the absolute comes from). Just because a vendor doesn't explicitly say they use "natural" flavorings or say they extract tobacco themselves, that doesn't mean they aren't using flavorings that contain something from a process that would not seem so innocuous.

    Granted, I've seen test reports that say no hexane was found in TA used in eliquid (though TA is mainly used in the perfume industry), but I know TA is found in many supposed synthetic tobacco flavorings and I imagine that not all TA is "pure" (just as not all natural tobacco flavorings themselves are problematic). So while you may think a synthetic tobacco liquid is exempt form the topic, it very well may not be.
     
  20. DonleyDoRight

    DonleyDoRight Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Good point you brought up Snork, and yet one more reason we started creating our own e-Liquids. (5 years ago last July 5th) The quality and constancy of the Chinese manufactured e-liquids was all over the place, even within the same batch.

    We started extracting Tobacco flavors about 4 years ago when I took a ACID Blondie cigar and steeped it on my dash in pure VG while on a road trip. Was a OMG moment to say the least.

    All of our tobacco flavors in our signature and premium lines are ONLY naturally extracted tobacco blends. We have not in the past nor will in the future, ever use Tobacco Absolute.

    Just not worth the oft chance that residual solvents could remain.

    The fact that certain heavy metals found in all plant based material is just a fact of nature and something unavoidable.

    So here is where the Vendor states explicitly "want2vape ONLY uses tobaccos that we extract ourselves and NEVER ANY added flavorings or Tobacco Absolute to create our Signature and Premium e-Liquids" :)

    Again Snork, good of you to bring up the TA subject.

    Everyone have a wonderful day, see you all again soon. Any questions, just ask.

    Donley
     
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