Nicotine Comparisons

[KattMamma]

I dunno about the oxidation lowering the bite... I am not sure I understand fully what happens to the flavor when it oxidizes - I always heard it gets peppery, but is that the "bite"? Like you, I'm not sure what to make of that quote.

I was responding to this :

They also seem to imply that a nicotine solution by itself can contain Diketones - even without added flavorings.

They're just offering a nic test and diketone test all in one "mini test"

 

[satchvai]

Could you please tell me if the batchnumber starts with 469102 and is 12 digits long, please? I wanna see if they still use nicselect, which I assume they do...

Batch number is: NIC-N15021901

 

[mjag]

I just saw something that contradicts the popular belief on this thread - that oxidized nicotine has more bite. The following link from Nude Nicotine indicates just the opposite.

It states in relevant parts that:
"Nicotine concentration is a key indicator of solution integrity – oxidation of solution can lower active L-nicotine ‘bite’ for a less potent formulation, even at the advertised mg/mL concentration."

And here is the link itself:
"Mini Profile" - Nicotine + Diketones - Nude Nicotine

They also seem to imply that a nicotine solution by itself can contain Diketones - even without added flavorings.

Am I reading this correctly?

This is a test you pay them to test YOUR e-liquid for nicotine strength and Diketones. This would be mostly for manufacturer's to send the completed e juice to find out if they have any diketones and Nic concentration. Suicide Bunny or Mt Baker would send NN a sample of there e-liquid and NN would give them back an analysis of what there juice contains.

 

[Exchaner]

This is a test you pay them to test YOUR e-liquid for nicotine strength and Diketones. This would be mostly for manufacturer's to send the completed e juice to find out if they have any diketones and Nic concentration. Suicide Bunny or Mt Baker would send NN a sample of there e-liquid and NN would give them back an analysis of what there juice contains.

The question is, does Nic get harsher with oxidation or not? Nude Nicotine is implying that it does not - just the opposite. As for Diketones, they probably are referring to flavored juice - not unflavored.

 

[Dixie1954]

Well I am a super taster and IMHO it does get harsher YMMV

 

[beckdg]

Well I am a super taster and IMHO it does get harsher YMMV

How ironic.

I hear I taste super as well.

And upon conclusion of self testing, I concur.

It's unanimous!

Tapatyped

 

[Exchaner]

Well I am a super taster and IMHO it does get harsher YMMV

How ironic.
I hear I taste super as well.
And upon conclusion of self testing, I concur.

It's unanimous!

Tapatyped

Are you guys talking about taste, or throat hit? To me, they are two different things.

 

[Dixie1954]

Since I can not understand - no matter how many of you explain it - throat hit, lol I use harshness and taste.

 

[Exchaner]

Since I can not understand - no matter how many of you explain it - throat hit, lol I use harshness and taste.

I can't say that I am a super taster, but I can definitely state that I am totally confused !!

 

[beckdg]

Are you guys talking about taste, or throat hit? To me, they are two different things.

Well that may depend on some factors.

And as usual, it's totally subjective depending on the person.

Though evidence suggests I'm capable of providing plenty of throat hit when the need arises.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

No orange juice necessary.

Though, if one prefers, who am I to object?

Tapatyped

 

[Exchaner]

No orange juice necessary.

Exactly. I like my vodka straight.

 

[mjag]

The question is, does Nic get harsher with oxidation or not? Nude Nicotine is implying that it does not - just the opposite. As for Diketones, they probably are referring to flavored juice - not unflavored.

We just read it differently, I do not assume that NN is implying that. What I do think is they talk about solution integrity and that if it is oxidized it will reduce the amount of nicotine "for a less potent formulation, even at the advertised mg/mL concentration." So if you are advertising 12mg nic and you do something to the juice to oxidize it real bad the "Bite" of 12mg will be reduced because it now measures 9mg nic.

More nic gives you more bite so if the oxidation lowers the nic content then less bite, please note that they don't say harsh, they are just talking about the integrity of the solution.

 

[Exchaner]

So if you are advertising 12mg nic and you do something to the juice to oxidize it real bad the "Bite" of 12mg will be reduced because it now measures 9mg nic.

More nic gives you more bite so if the oxidation lowers the nic content then less bite, please note that they don't say harsh, they are just talking about the integrity of the solution.

True, but still, even if we accept that explanation, the fact remains, a 9 mg solution will give you less throat hit than 12 mg - a direct result of oxidation. I just think they are purposely keeping it vague since they don't know for sure what the factors are ....

 

[Exchaner]

Since I can not understand - no matter how many of you explain it - throat hit, lol I use harshness and taste.

I wish I was like you. Can't do without TH.

 

[mjag]

True, but still, even if we accept that explanation, the fact remains, a 9 mg solution will give you less throat hit than 12 mg - a direct result of oxidation. I just think they are purposely keeping it vague since they don't know for sure what the factors are ....

I think your reading into it too much.

 

[Exchaner]

I think your reading into it too much.

Perhaps, but you might be doing the same thing with your explanation. Anyway, the answer is anyone's guess.

 

[Koolkiz]

I have a hard time wanting to vape severely oxidized nic. I still have a two 120ml bottles I'm saving for ant control.

When I was vaping higher nic the throat hit existed. Lowered the nic and its there but less prominent.

 

[mhertz]

Cyrus, thanks also from me, for this great thread and your contributions! And also for making me intrigued about trying unflavored in the first place! :cheers:

@All

To me, oxidizing brings forward the nutty tobacco taste and smell. I understand the thing about lesser potency equals lesser bite, but seriously, as tests have shown, then potency-loss happens very slowly, e.g. a full month with cap off at room temp in window, I think lost about 1mg in that test some ago, and that's an extreme example, and not really likelly scenario when ordering from vendors, and remember how little actual oxidation it takes to change the color, so that's why many vendors state color isn't related to potency... It's very much relevant for taste imho, a plus for me, a minus for many others "invisible-nic chasers"...

satchvai, thanks mate, I appreciate it! So now we know that HL nic is from unknown source... Could still be nicselect but we now don't know at least

 

[Kurt]

I just saw something that contradicts the popular belief on this thread - that oxidized nicotine has more bite. The following link from Nude Nicotine indicates just the opposite.

It states in relevant parts that:
"Nicotine concentration is a key indicator of solution integrity – oxidation of solution can lower active L-nicotine ‘bite’ for a less potent formulation, even at the advertised mg/mL concentration."

And here is the link itself:
"Mini Profile" - Nicotine + Diketones - Nude Nicotine

They also seem to imply that a nicotine solution by itself can contain Diketones - even without added flavorings.

Am I reading this correctly?

Poorly written. I think they mean that diketones are not good, but I don't think they mean they are present without flavorings. They are not. Period.

Also, acetoin is not a diketone. Its a keto-alcohol, and it is not toxic that we know of, certainly not like DA or AP. I can be an irritant, but that's different. Some acetoin can be contaminated with DA, but it is generally very low amounts. The fact that they call it a diketone tells me they don't even know what a ketone is. Red flag.

Their lab report for the various tests they do labels acetoin to be carcinogenic. MSDS says acetoin is not a carcinogen. Why put something in a report document that is false, and possibly fear mongering? Another red flag, and a big one.

I don't know what they are talking about with oxidation reducing "bite". Nude Nic seems to be putting out a lot of odd information about e-liquid chemistry, which they do not seem to understand well. Benzaldehyde being another one. Lots of flavor compounds can be irritants without being toxic. I applaud the spirit of their concerns and trying to solve them, but their chemistry has much to be desired, and they are falsely representing the dangers, or the lack thereof, of several common flavor compounds.