I think you are on the right track JM…because you've been following the track. Sooner or later we realize this railroad only goes in one direction.
Good luck.
Officials report biggest fall in adult smoking in decades
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I think you are on the right track JM…because you've been following the track. Sooner or later we realize this railroad only goes in one direction.
Good luck.
Wow. Racquel Welch, the Racquel...Major sex symbol back in the day.
Your mom speaks the truth. I've been into alternative health. vitamins, all that
and there was a major push to control and take down the vitamin and natural foods and supplements industry.
It succeeded in part, requiring much re-labeling of products
and much lawyering.
Thanks for mentioning that, JM.
I'll look it up,
if only to take a look at Racquel to see if she's aging gracefully.
Regards,
Hazy
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According to this link nicotine doesn't cause dependency to life time non-tobacco
users.
The myth of nicotine addiction - Formindep
The information in the link I posted is the single and only sole
reason for the hysteria around nicotine especially nicotine and
the chillin'.
When the little darlings graduate from high school and enter the real
world and it is discovered the first rational thing they do is drop vaping
to save money for other expenses (beer drinking) there will be a awful
lot of eggs on some peoples faces.
I got to thinking about the posts I have seen here and other forums
from people saying goodbye because they not only quit smoking but,
they have lowered their nic levels and are giving up vaping also.
Think how much this happens that we do not hear about. I have been
reading posts like this since the day I came here almost 3 years ago.
The powers that be know very well that nicotine is not the problem.
They have known this since the 1964 Surgeon Generals Report on
Smoking said as much.
"page 41
The habitual use of tobacco is related primarily to psychological and
social drives, reinforced and perpetuated by the pharmacological actions
of nicotine.
Social stimulation appears to play a major role in a young person’s early
and first experiments with smoking. No scientific evidence supports the
popular hypothesis that smoking among adolescents is an expression
rebellion against authority. Individual stress appears to be associated more
with fluctuations in the amount of smoking than with the prevalence of smoking.
The overwhelming evidence indicates that smoking-its beginning,
habituation, and occasional discontinuation-is to a very large extent psychologically
and socially determined.
Nicotine is rapidly changed in the body to relatively inactive substances
with low toxicity. The chronic toxicity of small doses of nicotine is low
in experimental animals. These two facts, when taken in conjunction with
the low mortality ratios of pipe and cigar smokers, indicate that the chronic
toxicity of nicotine in quantities absorbed from smoking and other methods
of tobacco use is very low and probably does not represent an important
health hazard."
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/nnbbmq.pdf
Note this part:
"The habitual use of tobacco is related primarily to psychological and
social drives, reinforced and perpetuated by the pharmacological actions
of nicotine."
Related primarily to. The problem lies in the fact everyone and their brother
believes nicotine is what makes smoking cigarettes addictive. Smoking
cigarettes is what makes smoking addictive. It did before BT did anything
to the tobacco and still does now. This is why vaping is going to be destroyed.
When it becomes more than evident that tobacco use spirals downward as
vaping spirals upwards and people give vaping up in their 20's with no
problems the jig is up.
Regards
Mike
I agree whole heartedly... I do believe that nicotine is addictive... but as I said.. nowhere near what the FDA is proposing. I hate to relate nicotine to caffeine, but they are similar in so many ways. Caffeine is addictive as well, but it's not regulated by the FDA to any great extent. Differentiate the nicotine from vaping and the nicotine from smoking, and they're on a totally different level. I do believe that adolescent rebellion and smoking are related... I am one such person. It's not a direct link "I'll smoke and show mom & dad who's boss" type rebellion, but a very subtle one. I'd have to argue that peer pressure and rebellion are more related than you think. If they recognize their peers as an authority figure, aren't they rebelling against their parents authority? Psychology can be a very complex thing, and is rarely a straightforward thing.
There's really no need.. the proof is in the people who quit smoking by vaping. There is no clear definition of addiction, but most scientists agree it deals with withdrawal symptoms. If you were a smoker, and you haven't had a cigarette for a while, then you had withdrawal symptoms, and wanted a cigarette... fidgeted, or did whatever until you got your next cigarette. When you substituted vaping with cigarettes, you were re-enforcing the addiction.. not substituting. So, when you vaped, you didn't want a cigarette.. at least for a while.
The overwhelming evidence also supports that smoking is more than JUST nicotine. Many people found a need to smoke occasional while they transitioned. This reinforces the belief that smoking addiction is more than just nicotine. Most vapers know, vaping is not a 1:1 replacement. Nicotine DOES affect the dopamine receptors, therefore people become addicted to the physical aspect of smoking (ref). That is why patches and gum has such a low success rate even though they contain nicotine... they don't satisfy the oral fixation of inhalation.
The good news is, nicotine is not a carcinogen, and it's not as addictive as most people lead it to be. it is only mildly addictive. My mother in law quit smoking through Chantix.. However, she carries a small little cigalike with zero nicotine juice in it. Her pathways are probably permanent, or at least she has low willpower. She still has the urge to inhale something. Chantix did it's job at getting her off the physical addction of all the chemicals in a cigarette, but nothing for the oral fixation. She tried Chantix before and not vaping... she relapsed. She tried again using a cigalike, and she has yet to relapse.
Please re-read my statement you quoted and then totally ignored....
In fact I don't think you can cite any study concluding that nicotine by itself is addictive at all.
By Itself. You are talking about smokers who ingested nicotine from tobacco. I am talking about those never smokers that are now ingesting nicotine by itself, without the associated leaf tobacco. Your experience and mine is irrelevant to that point.
Two things that I have read here on ECF (sorry no links) that indicate extremely low potential addiction are the rhesus monkey verses rats study. Rats could not be addicted to nicotine separate from tobacco, but some rhesus monkeys could. And a study of over 4,000 nicotine gum users that continued for some (excessive) length of time only found two never smokers.
Take a hard core non smoker to chew a second piece of the nasty unflavored gum I tried back in the 80s when it was still prescription only. Maybe the gum is better now with flavors?
It is the smoking ritual, that is also addictive. You can get out of bed, smoke a cigarette, then go pour a coffee and immediately want another cigarette. I think anyone who stopped smoking cigarettes will agree... you can predict the times of day when that craving is going to hit. With your coffee, at breaktime, after meals, before bed, and in the middle of the night during a bathroom run. Your mother-in-law has the right idea. It isn't the nicotine she was craving for, it was the ritual. I've said in several posts, if your goal is to quit tobacco cigarette smoking, get an e-stick. **Apparently, there is a vape company named estick. The use of the term e-stick was not intended to be related or advertising, and should be taken the same way as every pocket tissue is a Kleenex and all self adhesive bandages are "Band-aids"**
What they will say is that vaping got all those people hooked on nicotine and it was true all along that they are a gateway to smoking (just like they warned us!1!). The part where they banned (regulated out of existence) the safer product that people were happily using to get away from cigarettes, and left some percentage of the population with no effective choice, will be conveniently left out of the narrative.
ETA: I see I was late in this response. I was reading back and catching up. Someone mentioned that 'they might be surprised how many do not go back to smoking', and I think that is true, but I think we will probably see a rise in youth smoking, or at least a stall in the decline. Because we have to realize that a lot of the youth who have used an ecig are kids would would have been smokers a decade ago. The fact that kids want to rebel is not going to change, but they will have to rebel with combustibles (as far as smoking is concerned) after the deeming regs go into effect.
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Exactly, and that's why it's so complex in classifying nicotine as addictive. Nicotine affects the dopamine receptors in your brain. While the chemical itself may not be as addictive, it opens up those receptors to habbitual rituals.. in essence, you teach your brain this is what I want. If you dipped, the ritual would be everything involved in dipping, if you smoked, part of the ritual is inhaling, packing the cigarette, or drinking with coffee. It's not an easy subject to understand and classify, which is why they're having a hard time determining what exactly is "addiction". It's not creating an environment where your body NEEDS nicotine, so some will argue that because of that, nicotine is not addicting at all.
As in my in-laws case, she took nicotine by smoking... the nicotine in her body opened up the dopamine receptors, and pretty much told her brain "every time I drink coffee, and inhale something, that is what I want". Sort of like a Pavlov's case with a dog.. he would ring a bell, then feed his dog... he did this for a long time. eventually, every time that dog heard the bell, his mouth would start to salivate as he was expecting food. So, was the dog addicted to the bell? I'm sure the dog craved the bell. Now, like Pavlov, my mother in law got a stimulus via smoking. This was reinforced by opening dopamine receptors in the brain. It became common to the brain "smoking = pleasure". Chantix helped get her off many of the other chemicals in the cigarette, but the Nicotine had created a more permanent path in her brain of inhaling something. So, is she addicted to inhaling something?
So, nicotine affects dopamine.. that is well known. Gambling does too.. as well as sports, stealing, winning awards, successfully fixing cars... anything that pleasures you or excites you. So, physically, nicotine is not addictive(or not very, I am not sure), mentally, it is addictive. If we regulate it for it's mental addiction, we should regulate anything that excites or interests us.. which isn't feasable. Trying to get senators to take the time to research all of this is impossible.
Yea, it's a catch 22... Somehow they will convolute the studies to implicate vaping as the cause. If smoking decreases, it will be their campaigns against smoking and the vape ban that made them decrease. If smoking increases, it will be the vaping leading as a gateway to smoking that caused them to increase... either way, they will find themselves just and right.
My response never did say anything about nicotine being "addictive"... you're not understanding my point. I said "There is no clear definition of addiction". When you say "I can't site any study concluding that nicotine BY ITSELF is addictive at all" I am simply stating that there is no clear definition of addiction. What I said in my post, is there's MORE THAN NICOTINE in the smoking ritual. Nicotine supports that ritual and fosters it. I would wholeheartedly agree that nicotine in itself is not addictive. But the brain is not as simple as that, and nicotine affects the brain... Nicotine caused other habbits.. so... does that classify it as addictive? or is it a chemical that leads to addiction even though it, in itself, is not addictive?
In fact you cannot find any evidence that nicotine, delivered by itself and without tobacco, causes any dependence at all, no matter how you define dependence or addiction. There are millions of never smoking vapers now, but no reports of dependence at all.
I think the issue is, not so much is nicotine addictive, as it is, is nicotine on its own, harmful. From what I have found, it is no more harmful than caffeine in a cup of coffee. Also, there may be millions of new vapers that never smoked, but I suspect they are using 0mg ejuice, for the social and competitive aspects (like chewing gum, hanging out at the store drinking cola, and vape tricks and cloud chasing). The only difference is, now new vapers can participate, where as before you couldn't hang with a group of your smoking friends. Historically speaking, chances are that if these new vapers didn't start vaping, they would have started something else. Either smoking tobacco or herbs, or drinking, or something involving a plastic bag and battery cables. LOL. There is always something to try, and always somebody to try it. The bigger focus, should be on cigarette smokers coming off tobacco and non-smokers never starting tobacco. Meaning, the decrease in number of new smokers every year vs the increase in new vapers every year.
Personally speaking, I dont HAVE to HAVE a vape every 20 minutes. I don't sit on my computer and chain vape from my RDA, where as before, I would smoke 20 cigarettes a night while playing Warcraft. Now I don't.
In fact available surveys suggest roughly 50% of youth never smoking vapers do use nicotine. That is the same number given to me when I recently asked a couple of just graduated seniors of a high school with an inordinately large number of vapers. They also reported smoking rates between 1-5% in their school. They also suggested no evidence of dependence on vaping. Anecdotal of course but completely in line with the real science (which they were totally unaware of)
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Thank you for posting your link from MPR, Dave 8944. The following summary paragraphs really got my attention:
"E-cigarettes heat liquid nicotine into a vapor, delivering the chemical that smokers crave without the harmful by-products generated from burning tobacco.
That makes them a potentially useful tool to help smokers quit, but experts fear it also creates a new way for people to get addicted to nicotine.
Some CDC surveys (which ones??) have shown a boom in e-cigarette use among teenagers, and health officials fear many of those kids will get hooked on nicotine and later become smokers."
Huh? So ecigs are a "gateway" to smoking cigs? Then that would mean that the high-octane, caffeine drinks are a "gateway" to methamphetamine.
The only attraction for kids is to be told that something is "wrong" and they flock right to it. And that is exactly how I got hooked on cigarettes many eons ago.....
Is nicotine a bad thing??
"E-cigarettes heat liquid nicotine into a vapor, delivering the chemical that smokers crave without the harmful by-products generated from burning tobacco.
That makes them a potentially useful tool to help smokers quit, but experts fear it also creates a new way for people to get addicted to nicotine.
Some CDC surveys (which ones??) have shown a boom in e-cigarette use among teenagers, and health officials fear many of those kids will get hooked on nicotine and later become smokers."
Huh? So ecigs are a "gateway" to smoking cigs? Then that would mean that the high-octane, caffeine drinks are a "gateway" to methamphetamine.
The only attraction for kids is to be told that something is "wrong" and they flock right to it. And that is exactly how I got hooked on cigarettes many eons ago.....
Is nicotine a bad thing??
Yup... that's what gets me frustrated. When I smoked, I thought it was the nicotine that kept me addicted. I knew there were other chemicals, but I didn't know how much was in them. I just blindly thought Nicotine was highly addictive. When I switched to vaping, I started doing research to see how safe it was. I did research on propylene glycol, vegetable glyceringe, and nicotine, the chemicals in smoking, and the Master Settlement Agreement. I did research on all the health risks of smoking and got a clearer picture of what was going on when I smoked, what was going on when I vaped, and once I understood what was going on, it then baffled me as to WHY vaping is considered smoking. It all came around to nicotine.
The FDA is preying on the fact that most people believe nicotine is as addictive as ........ Most studies on nicotine were a focus on cigarette addiction. That is what most people read, and it's what I kept reading. The FDA is more of a political organization than a scientific one. Their policies are ruled by lobbyists and mass belief, and less by true scientific results. If the general outlook on vaping was "vaping is a great way for smokers to quit"... then there wouldn't be as much as a surge towards vaping from never smokers.
Right On.....Spot On....If they were not, they would require BT to reveal and label all of the ingredients in a cigarette. ALL other consumer products require labeling....but NOT BT. Kids know how to read labels these days. If they knew what was in a cig, would they start smoking?? Every bottle of ejuice I have ever used has a declaration of ingredients. And that makes me proud that I know.
Amazing that in many parts of the world it's still not considered to be a quitting aid. Governments move bloody slowly, and too often in the wrong direction!
Try over 6 Grand per person per year. That is the math I did. But keep in mind cigarettes are expensive here in MassYep. 45 billion per 5 years if 9 million vape and do not spend $1,000 per year on tobacco product. One billion per 1 million vapers not spending $1,000 per yr on tobacco. I been learning to doodle with numbers a little better. Also been double checking with others. I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. The box though has all kinds of brightness so, i help average it out.
That's why big tobacco wants to control vaping industry. For the lies and deliberate misrepresentation big tobacco has put on the American (and other) people, they as an industry should be allowed to just go out of business. They could have come up with a "safe" cigarette or even vaping, years ago, they didn't, they want a product that is totally addictive, remove any element of free will.
I would like to see this new regulation handeled in two waves,
Get rid of the bs regulations, Labeling, not a problem, don't sell to kids, obviously regulations and costs to force out small businesses and basically give this industry over to big tobacco no f'in way
Fight to get the conflict of interests out of government, big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies. If these interests had their way we would all be overweight, smoking 2 packs a day, and addicted to opioids and anti-depressants.
I would like to see this new regulation handeled in two waves,
Get rid of the bs regulations, Labeling, not a problem, don't sell to kids, obviously regulations and costs to force out small businesses and basically give this industry over to big tobacco no f'in way
Fight to get the conflict of interests out of government, big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies. If these interests had their way we would all be overweight, smoking 2 packs a day, and addicted to opioids and anti-depressants.
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