Officials report biggest fall in adult smoking in decades

[GBalkam]

From what I've been reading, regardless of each persons view on the addiction properties of nicotine, one thing is abundantly clear, and all seem to be in agreement. vaping is NOT smoking! So yes, if i switched to vapes about 3 months ago and haven't had a cigarette in 2 1/2 months, then I HAVE QUIT SMOKING! There is (usually) no tobacco in e-juice (except maybe distilled in tobacco flavored juice... but that still isn't tobacco imo) and there is no smoke. Nothing burns. (except dry hits, but cotton isn't regulated.. lol.. "Hey, man.. im jonesin.. front me a few cotton balls.. you can date my sister.. she luv you long time.." *full metal jacket ref*). I mean, jebuz.. are people that eat tofu burgers still vegetarian if they don't eat any meat? If I eat egg plant, does that make me a smoker? What Im saying is, using nicotine may be addictive, but that makes you a nicotine addict, not a smoker. Caffeine is also addictive, and anyone that disputes that fact needs to spend a day with me when i run out. Im unbearable. lol.

I also think, anybody saying vaping leads to smoking, should be forced to smoke a cigarette. BIG difference between a cherry flavored e-juice and a mouthful of burnt tobacco. Even when i smoked, i found the taste revolting. Now, since i started vaping, I no longer even miss the throat hit. I use 20/80 juice for flavor and fog. I'll use my mod while watching tv, which is healthier than stuffing my face with potato chips, and use my vplum when i crave a REAL cigarette, (since it provides "the ritual" of smoking)

To be blatantly honest here, I figure that anyone claiming vaping is smoking, or is a gateway to smoking, is just plain A) Stupid, B) uninformed, C) being paid to say so. I mean, good lord, if you want more nicotine, you just buy stronger juice!

It also seems highly suspicious that the FDA is so concerned with what might happen from using vapes, yet they still haven't banned cigarettes, knowing full well what the effects of smoking are.

 

[GBalkam]

That's why big tobacco wants to control vaping industry. For the lies and deliberate misrepresentation big tobacco has put on the American (and other) people, they as an industry should be allowed to just go out of business. They could have come up with a "safe" cigarette or even vaping, years ago, they didn't, they want a product that is totally addictive, remove any element of free will.

I would like to see this new regulation handled in two waves,

Get rid of the bs regulations, Labeling, not a problem, don't sell to kids, obviously regulations and costs to force out small businesses and basically give this industry over to big tobacco no f'in way

Fight to get the conflict of interests out of government, big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies. If these interests had their way we would all be overweight, smoking 2 packs a day, and addicted to opioids and anti-depressants.

Agreed. Vapers want to know what is in the stuff we use and where it comes from. Like VG *from palm plants* nicotine from egg plant, etc. Also the age restriction on vape products, the same as cigarettes, and vaping restrictions, such as with smoking... no smoking or vaping in public buildings, on busses, etc. Vape shops being exempt, allow vapers to try stuff in the shops. It would be rather stupid to have a bar selling beer.. but you can't drink it there. To be honest, this shouldn't affect vapers at all, since most should be courteous anyway, and not blow vape clouds in strangers faces or make someone have to smell what they are vaping on, just the same as smokers should be courteous, but apparently regulation is needed to deal with those who aren't considerate of others.

Also, yes, regulate prices. A minimum and maximum price, with say 15% leeway allowing no more than 15% of their product line to be on sale and no more than a 50% discount on sale items, to allow for sales and promotions of new products. *just as an example.. numbers would have to be researched*

 

[GBalkam]

This is kind of funny... Im posting in a vaping forum, but not vaping while Im doing it. Yet, if i was still smoking, I would have a cigarette hanging out of my mouth while i typed. LOL.

 

[ComputerJunkie]

It's really funny when you think back years ago when Canada and USA were trying to ban ALL cigarettes and then the increase of ALL public non-smoking areas. Yet, cigarettes were a HUGE tax income. Now that we ARE turning away from cigarettes, all the tobacco companies, the government and the smoking cessation doctors/pharmaceuticals are freaking out! That's the only reason the FDA is trying to get into this mess anyway. So far, in my town of 300+ people, I have not seen a single underaged vaper. And all the vapers I know, are getting healthier. Plus, for us poor folk, it has meant putting better food on the table because it's cheaper. They aren't happy unless we are unhealthy and broke!

 

[crxess]

The myth of nicotine addiction - Formindep

Tweeted - Dr.JJ - Hallmark Channel Fraud and linked the paper.
The myth of nicotine addiction - Formindep

Claiming Nicotine as addictive as........well Both are Censored here.
Lets just say Cola and Wonder Woman

 

[NealBJr]

There is (usually) no tobacco in e-juice (except maybe distilled in tobacco flavored juice... but that still isn't tobacco imo) and there is no smoke. Nothing burns. (except dry hits, but cotton isn't regulated.. lol.. "Hey, man.. im jonesin.. front me a few cotton balls.. you can date my sister.. she luv you long time.." *full metal jacket ref*).

THAT right there is why they're considered tobacco products. The FDA did do a small test on certain cigalikes back in 2009.. guess what, they found tobacco alkaloids in the tobacco flavors...(ref) go figure. That is what is fueling their whole "it's a tobacco product"... and it's what's infuriating me the most. I have long since given up tobacco flavors, but even if I didn't, they found trace amounts.. and what they claimed as "almost as much as a traditional cigarette" for one alkaloid. in otherwords, even they tested them, and found they were safer. Yet they lump ALL flavors and ALL ecigs in the same category as a 2000+ chemical cigarette.

Now what I can't wrap my brain about is their regulation.. they want us to go back to those prefilled cigalike cartriges where I have no control over what I vape. Not only that, But since then, we've switched to much safer juices than back in 2009. they're saying "Back in 2009, we tested them and found they were potentially dangerous... So, drop what you're doing now, and go back to those potentially dangerous versions and then we'll tax you like a cigarette"...

No sense.. it all makes no sense.. and I'm just wracking my brain trying to figure it all out.

 

[VNeil]

THAT right there is why they're considered tobacco products. The FDA did do a small test on certain cigalikes back in 2009.. guess what, they found tobacco alkaloids in the tobacco flavors...(ref) go figure. That is what is fueling their whole "it's a tobacco product"... and it's what's infuriating me the most. I have long since given up tobacco flavors, but even if I didn't, they found trace amounts.. and what they claimed as "almost as much as a traditional cigarette" for one alkaloid. in otherwords, even they tested them, and found they were safer. Yet they lump ALL flavors and ALL ecigs in the same category as a 2000+ chemical cigarette.

Now what I can't wrap my brain about is their regulation.. they want us to go back to those prefilled cigalike cartriges where I have no control over what I vape. Not only that, But since then, we've switched to much safer juices than back in 2009. they're saying "Back in 2009, we tested them and found they were potentially dangerous... So, drop what you're doing now, and go back to those potentially dangerous versions and then we'll tax you like a cigarette"...

No sense.. it all makes no sense.. and I'm just wracking my brain trying to figure it all out.

It has nothing to do with alkaloids. It is the 2009 Congress that passed the TCA, which empowers the FDA to regulate anything "derived from tobacco". Nicotine is good enough, no additional alkaloids required.

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that it was the 2009 Congress that empowered the FDA to effectively ban any new product (introduced after Feb 2007) that contained nicotine. So congress effectively eliminated the creation of any new alternative to leaf tobacco that contains nicotine. Unless, of course, it is a creation of BP, and regulated as a drug or medical device.

It was congress that created this mess and it is congress that must fix it, unless someone convinces the courts to overturn it for some legal reason.

 

[MyMagicMist]

Try over 6 Grand per person per year. That is the math I did. But keep in mind cigarettes are expensive here in Mass

Alright. I was figuring an average of $6 per pack for Marlboro Reds, without any taxes just a basic $6 per pack. Chose Marlboro Reds as they seem to be a sales leader. The $6 per pack makes a carton $60, I figured two cartons a month. That was what got me through usually, course, I was a moderate smoker. That gives me the figures I used.

Your suggestion of 6K though does not sound unrealistic either. Let's meet midway and call it 3.5K per person. That gives us $3,500,000,000 per million people, per year. Yes, it may be exactly as you say 6K per person. I don't want to see those numbers though. Already getting sick looking at these.

9 million people @ $3.5K per year = $31,500,000,000 This is 31 and 1 half billion.

$31,500,000,000 * 5 years = 1.575e+11 I would figure that is a little over 1 trillion and a half.

Still say that is Money which is enough for motive. Do not think anyone could convince me that banning vaping was about offering me better health, especially not a lobbyist for Big Tobacco.

 

[VNeil]

Alright. I was figuring an average of $6 per pack for Marlboro Reds, without any taxes just a basic $6 per pack. Chose Marlboro Reds as they seem to be a sales leader. The $6 per pack makes a carton $60, I figured two cartons a month. That was what got me through usually, course, I was a moderate smoker. That gives me the figures I used.

Your suggestion of 6K though does not sound unrealistic either. Let's meet midway and call it 3.5K per person. That gives us $3,500,000,000 per million people, per year. Yes, it may be exactly as you say 6K per person. I don't want to see those numbers though. Already getting sick looking at these.

9 million people @ $3.5K per year = $31,500,000,000 This is 31 and 1 half billion.

$31,500,000,000 * 5 years = 1.575e+11 I would figure that is a little over 1 trillion and a half.

Still say that is Money which is enough for motive. Do not think anyone could convince me that banning vaping was about offering me better health, especially not a lobbyist for Big Tobacco.

Easily googled numbers indicate the total annual tobacco tax revenue in the USA alone is about $32 bi!lion, including about $8 billion in MSA payments. No need to extrapolate out from personal anecdotal consumption. Since there are about 32 mi!lion smokers that is an even $1,000 per smoker. Just taxes.

 

[Steve Tob.]

Over here in Australia, the latest about to become law in my state is that Vape Juice and Vape Products are to fall into the same category as tobacco products and cannot be displayed or sold online. The crappiest part is that in Australia we cannot sell juice with nicotine, we have to import the nicotine juice and add to the juice ourselves.

Now here is a B.S. part of our law, legally we can import nicotine fluid from another country, however, once we take possession we are breaking the law as it is categorized as a class 5 poison. Is that bureaucratic crap or what!!!

 

[John Vincent Manglo]

Is there any new raffle game ??

 

[MyMagicMist]

Easily googled numbers indicate the total annual tobacco tax revenue in the USA alone is about $32 bi!lion, including about $8 billion in MSA payments. No need to extrapolate out from personal anecdotal consumption. Since there are about 32 mi!lion smokers that is an even $1,000 per smoker. Just taxes.

And that was what I had suggested before, $1,000 a year per each smoker. At 9 million that's 9 billion a year lost. Multiply that for five years & you get 45 billion lost in 5 years.

@Dave M suggested the $6,000 a year figure. I met in the middle at $3,500 a year. Either way I still see it as a metric poop ton of money that fits as a clear motive.

 

[VNeil]

And that was what I had suggested before, $1,000 a year per each smoker. At 9 million that's 9 billion a year lost. Multiply that for five years & you get 45 billion lost in 5 years.

@Dave M suggested the $6,000 a year figure. I met in the middle at $3,500 a year. Either way I still see it as a metric poop ton of money that fits as a clear motive.

The rise in high school vaping has coincided with an unprecedented decline in high school smoking of 31% in the past two years (from 15.7% to 10.8%). That is a decline of almost 5% of about 15 million students or about 750,000 lost customers of tobacco revenue. Just in two years.

No wonder Tobacco Control is so worried about teenage vaping. They need to keep American youth smoking. But it isn't working...

 

[MyMagicMist]

The rise in high school vaping has coincided with an unprecedented decline in high school smoking of 31% in the past two years (from 15.7% to 10.8%). That is a decline of almost 5% of about 15 million students or about 750,000 lost customers of tobacco revenue. Just in two years.

No wonder Tobacco Control is so worried about teenage vaping. They need to keep American youth smoking. But it isn't working...

No because the generation before them are finally coming forward and showing direct results of tobacco as processed and created for consumption by Big Tobacco. We're also showing them a safer alternative. Human children follow examples, good or bad. In fact, may even say all humans do.

That may be why there is furious calls for the FDA to go POP! The sound of the pop would be them removing craniums from rectums. It is also why I think ultimately it'll be a consumer won market, a consumer retained market. We as consumers are speaking with dollars pulled away from what we no longer desire, dollars going to what we desire.

If it were simply a Fair market and not a Free market, I think consumers, manufactures, juice mixers, small shops would all win. But if the FDA continues and this crap heap they're lobbing gets traction, it'll only be a Free market, or no market at all. Sorry, I'm not keen to let Big Tobacco have any more money, ammo.

 

[GBalkam]

Over here in Australia, the latest about to become law in my state is that Vape Juice and Vape Products are to fall into the same category as tobacco products and cannot be displayed or sold online. The crappiest part is that in Australia we cannot sell juice with nicotine, we have to import the nicotine juice and add to the juice ourselves.

Now here is a B.S. part of our law, legally we can import nicotine fluid from another country, however, once we take possession we are breaking the law as it is categorized as a class 5 poison. Is that bureaucratic crap or what!!!

I would like to know in which way cigarettes are sold to circumvent those other laws, where do your cigarettes come from, and is there a nicotine fairy that comes by after you purchase them and adds the nicotine, and does this fairy have like diplomatic immunity or something to avoid prosecution? Are shop owners selling these cigarettes subject to "the law as it is categorized as a class 5 poison"?

IMO when a law is not being enforced, it is time to change it. Either outright ban all tobacco sales and imports or allow tobacco related ingredients such as nicotine to be purchased / used, etc within safe guidelines. (Maybe no person shall have more than 1L nicotine in their possession and must be stored safely).. something like that..

Obviously, you can buy cigarettes. and these "laws" are being.. less than strictly enforced... I wonder if the shop owners could then start selling other "controlled recreational substances" *(badger badger badger badger.. [Moderated]) and such.. lol.

*if you don't get the reference, just google it. You should find an annoying swf file and a song that sticks in your head for days*

 

[DC2]

IMO when a law is not being enforced, it is time to change it. Either outright ban all tobacco sales and imports or allow tobacco related ingredients such as nicotine to be purchased / used, etc within safe guidelines. (Maybe no person shall have more than 1L nicotine in their possession and must be stored safely).. something like that..

With all due respect, I have to say...

When a law is not being enforced it should be stripped from the books.
Because that clearly means it was a bogus law to begin with.

Strangulation by Regulation anyone?

As far as they rest of your post about arbitrary limits on whatever...
Why?

 

[GBalkam]

With all due respect, I have to say...

When a law is not being enforced it should be stripped from the books.
Because that clearly means it was a bogus law to begin with.

Strangulation by Regulation anyone?

As far as they rest of your post about arbitrary limits on whatever...
Why?

Because, the limits appease the government and lets them save face. Additionally, there is a point at which quantity becomes a safety and environmental issue. Take rubbing alcohol for example.. 500ml can be safely stored in your medicine cabinet.. 500 gallons requires a blast proof, static proof storage area and all containers must be grounded, in addition to a required "blast window" to vent gasses in case of an explosion. (like the safety valve on a compressed air tank). Not to mention, alcoholic beverages.. there is a point between having a well stocked bar and being seen as a bootlegger. 2 bottles of whiskey.. you are a drunk.. 200 bottles and you become an illegal bootleg operation. The premise being.. why would 1 person require 200 bottles of whiskey if they were not selling it illegally?

I just recalled a law we have here in Canada. You are not permitted to swear in public. Violators subject to prosecution with penalties which include.. time in jail, a fine, being put in the stocks and public flogging. That is still on the books, but is not enforced. The way society is today, you would have to have a wait list and appointments to get your flogging. "On June 17th, 2016 you were convicted of swearing in public. Please report to the court house lawn on Aug 29, 2022 for execution of sentence... 20 lashes to be administered by the official court appointed flogger" lol

 

[VNeil]

...The premise being.. why would 1 person require 200 bottles of whiskey if they were not selling it illegally?

When Prohibition is imminent?

 

[DC2]

Because, the limits appease the government and lets them save face.

Why should anyone accept a situation where "government saving face" is even a consideration?
That sounds wrong on every level I can think of in a sane world.

Additionally, there is a point at which quantity becomes a safety and environmental issue.

Only when people need to store it when forced to do so by government over-regulation.

I'm just not seeing how what you're saying is logical.

 

[MacTechVpr]

…I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that it was the 2009 Congress that [unlawfully] empowered the FDA to effectively ban any new product (introduced after Feb 2007) that contained nicotine. So congress effectively…created this mess and it is congress that must fix it, unless someone convinces the courts to overturn it for some legal reason.

There now. Good summary of the situation. Congrats.

Let's get vaping out of tobacco legislation.

Good luck.